Are SEO practitioners not welcomed as editors?

Hi:

This forum is a great idea given all the bad press that DMOZ gets in various forums.

I have applied several times to be an editor, and being reasonably fluent in the English language, with an understanding of directories, thier requirements, and how to write titles and descriptions for them thought I stood a chance, especially since I alway chose a small category that said it needed an editor, but have been rejected each time.

From discussions in SEO forums I see a general perception that if you identify yourself as being involved in SEO you will not be accepted.

Can someone please set the record straight on this matter?

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Hi Mel.

Quote from ODP Guidelines - http://dmoz.org/guidelines.html :

>> In some cases, an editor's business affiliation overlaps their involvement in the directory, such as with Search Engine Optimization (SEO) professionals and Professional Content Providers (PCPs), whose participation may benefit both the editor and the directory. Instances when the involvement is mutually beneficial are acceptable, however, the primary focus and goal should always be to serve the best interests of the ODP and the editing community. Conducting unfair and deceptive activities to promote and support client listings will result in removal of editing privileges. <<

So, we have webmasters and SEOs as editors. They know their competition better than anybody else, and in this way they are more than experienced to edit some categories. However, we have a zero tolerance policy for abuse, and those that use their editorial ODP account in order to promote sites that are affiliated with will be inactivated.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Because of the zero tolerance for abuse (when found) metas reviewing applications for new editors are reasonably cautious. As an SEO we would look at your application, and consider the likely hood that you would abuse the system in order to get your clients (and only your clients) listed. Or would you use your extra knowledge to not only list your clients but to also list their compitition fairly and without bias. If it's the later, and everything else in your application is fine (apply to a small (less 100 sites is a general guideline) category, use proper grammar and spelling, and write 2-3 good descriptions) you should have no problem becoming an editor eventually.

Somehow, in your application, you need to prove to the meta reviewing it that your goals as an editor are good ones. Remember though, above all else, stay honest!

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Then again, if people just wanted to get their clients' sites listed, they could just follow the normal submission guidelines. /images/icons/smile.gif Plus, it is likely that their clients' sites would be scattered over several categories, so editing just one category wouldn't help get sites listed.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Thanks for the prompt replies, however it appears to me that being a bit dishonest would likely give me a better chance.

By that I mean if I say something specifically tailored to make the meta believe I am really fervent about the DMOZ, rather than just saying I understand that there is a need for editors, DMOZ is a worthwhile project and I am willing to help(which is a lot closer to the truth) I would impress the Meta more.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Dishonesty in your editor application is grounds for removal.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Hi MJmendl:

Well there are a lot of us whose experience with using the normal submission guidelines has been far from satisfactory, so I can see someone perhaps thinking that as an editor he could speed things up a bit, but your perception that any one SEOs clients would be in many different categories is more than likely closer to the truth.

In mitigation let me say that usually when I finally find an editor who responds, the submission is taken care of promptly.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

If your reason for applying is to speed the listing process along, then it's better you not apply at all. We don't mind SEO's being editors, as long as they are willing to contribute something extra to the community. We respect that not all people are willing to do this, but at the same time we ask that they not volunteer to become editors.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Sorry, but I think I am seeing some kneejerk reactions here. Nowhere have I suggested that one should apply to speed things along, in fact I said just the opposite, but I do think I perceive the bias I mentioned previously.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Mel,

Being an SEO and a senior ODP editor I think I am in a position to see this issue from both sides.

I feel that there is no bias towards new applicants who declare to be SEOs. As enarra said, metas reviewing applications for new editors are reasonably cautious, and this applies to *all* applications, since while we strongly need new editors, we need competent and dedicated ones.

Sometimes it is not easy to spot a future abuser or self-serving editor while reviewing an application, sometimes it appears clear that the applicant is waiting to be accepted only to promote his own sites, sometimes, the appllication is just unacceptable for different reasons that have nothing to do with the affiliation (be it declared or not). In considering the likelyhood that an SEO would use his extra knowledge for the good of the directory, and not abuse his position to only list his clients' sites (or even worse bash competitors' sites), we take into account every bit of the application (in many cases, we discuss it with other metas to get second opinions), and being upfront sure helps in showing that you are starting with the good foot from day one.

I happened to reject applicants declaring to be SEOs as well as others trying to hide their profession, the same as I happened to reject webmasters showing that they applied only to list their own single site, or trying to hide their affiliations with the category. I also accepted SEOs as new editors, when I felt that their goals as an editor were good ones, as well as I accepted many webmasters, or other applicants just willing to help in a field/area where they have a good knowledge of the issues and/or the characteristic of the sites.

Sure, I can sometimes be wrong in judging new applications, but due to the great amount of time and effort requested to spot and pursue abuse (and we do strive hard to keep the directory "clean"), I somewhat prefer to err being on the cautious side that letting in someone who will betray our trust. I think it's understandable - after all we get hundreds of emails and we see hundreds of posts in different Boards claiming that some editors are self-serving, abuse their position, or have a "category guarding" attitude.

Anyone willing to embrace our goals is therefore welcomed to be an editor, provided that his application is acceptable (good titles and descriptions for the sites suggested, proper grammar and spelling, small enough category, clear and honest in stating his reasons and affiliation, etc.).

Moreover, I think that professional SEOs do know that the usefulness of having their site/s listed in ODP has nothing to do with having them listed with kw-stuffed descriptions, in the wrong categories, cooled, or with tweaked titles to appear at the top of the list. Also, a well-maintained category full of sites gives more relevancy - from a SEO point of view - to the single sites present than a category with only a few ones, thus proving that category guarding in the long run is against the interests of an editor having an affiliation with one or more of the sites listed (and often, in the short run, leads to removal).

This said, SEOs, as well as any webmaster thinking about becoming an editor, should be first of all honest with himself. Ask yourself these questions:

a) am I applying because I just need to have a better/faster way to list my clients' sites ? If so, please don't. Use instead the AddUrl function, read the ODP Guidelines and category descriptions/FAQs and provide guidelines-compliant titles and descriptions for the sites you submit. Communicate with editors in a polite manner if your site/s don't get listed after a while. This will greatly help editors who will have to review the sites, and speed up the process.

b) am I applying because I think that I can be of some help building up a comprehensive directory, taking care of a category where I have an interest or a deep knowledge of the matter? If so, please, apply. Read the ODP Guidelines, ask questions in this Forum, build up a good application and prove us that your goals match with the Community goals. As I said, we strongly need good editors.

c) am I applying because I have sites to list (after all, it's my job, being an SEO) *but* I am willing to help building up the category, and I am prepared to play fair and by the rules ? If so, please apply. Read the the ODP Guidelines, ask questions in this Forum, build up a good application and be upfront, telling us which are your affiliations and why you think you can help in the growth of the directory. Be prepared to treat your own or clients' sites the same as you will treat your competition, within the standard of the Guidelines for listing and describing sites. Be prepared to build up a category where looking at the sites present nobody could tell from the titles/descriptions/position which are "your" sites and which are "competitors'" ones: this is actually the best way to test if you are contributing in a fair manner (and the one I suggest to all editors having an affiliation with the category or categories they edit).

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Ah, the joys of written communication... This statement is likely to be completely misinterpreted:

>>it appears to me that being a bit dishonest would likely give me a better chance<<
If an applicant is dishonest about disclosing their affiliations (what they do, the websites they've designed etc.), which is usually because their underlying intent is to solely promote those websites, they will likely be discovered and removed eventually. Unfortunately this happens far too often, and these editors are discovered after they have actually caused damage in some area. This is one of the main concerns that metas have when they review applications.

However, I believe that when you suggested dishonesty, you were referring more to trying to appear more enthusiatic and "gushing" than you really are. This is not necessary. All that you need to demonstrate is your basic desire to help, ability to edit, and honesty in your affiliations.

I would suggest this:
1. Choose a category with less than 100 sites in which you have some interest and knowledge, but preferably not one with which you are heavily affiliated with.
2. Find 3 good URLs that are not listed and title and describe them per the guidelines.
3. Include in your application why you want to edit (what you said was fine) and ALSO a link to a website you own which discloses ALL other websites that you are affiliated with.

This provides the meta reviewing your application the ability to see that you are capable, honest, and understand the concerns of the meta community.

Many of our editors have affiliations. The most successful not only avoid editing improperly, they avoid any appearance of improper behavior. Some won't list sites they are affiliated with unless they happen to be cleaning and improving the entire category. Some won't list sites they are affiliated with at all. Most don't even tell their clients they edit at ODP. They will provide advice on the appropriate category to submit to and description writing, but the clients are responsible for submission. When they edit in ODP, their focus is on making ODP better - and knowing that this is the common goal, they trust that eventually some other editor will properly tend those sites.

Well, that was long, but hopefully helpful. Good Luck!

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Hi Lissa:

Thanks for the long,thoughtful and intelligent reply.

Except for the one about providing a single site that declares every site I am affiliated with in any way, (don't think such and animal exists as I have designed and optimized many, many sites) I have done all the above not once but three times over the past couple of years, and at this point in time have plenty of other things to keep me out of mischief, so as far as I personally am concerned it is a moot point.

But as a moderator at a popular forum I have heard and answered these complaints so many times that I feel a necessity to bring it to the attention of ODP editors yet again, and this new forum seems like the place to do that.

I am sure that there is a lot of sour grapes out there, but I still believe that where there is so much smoke there must be a bit of fire too. It may well be that its just the nature of the beast that such things are inevitable, but my experience has been that a dedicated group can make a difference if they really try.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Quoth ettore:
... I somewhat prefer to err being on the cautious side that letting in someone who will betray our trust.<p><hr></blockquote>Hmmm... Does your level of paranoia vary depending upon the category? I mean, just gut instinct tells me that someone applying for a TV show or rockstar category is probably less likely to have ulterior motives than someone applying for a business related category.

Maybe when applying the applicant should be told the level of paranoia for that category, so if they get rejected they can just say "Oh well, I got rejected because they were too paranoid"?

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

I dare say that my... level of paranoia remains the same no matter which category I am reviewing a new application for. We don't have "second level" or "third level" categories in ODP, where letting an abuser in is acceptable, opposite to "first level" categories where we should be more careful.

&gt;&gt;someone applying for a TV show or rockstar category is probably less likely to have ulterior motives

Your gut instinct is wrong, sorry. You would be surprised to know how many self-interested applications we get in most "innocent" areas, as well as how many accepted editors actually turned up to be abusive even in the less abuse-prone areas.

This said, being cautious has nothing to do with being paranoid, but since you never experienced the application reviewing process, and probably never had to deal with abuse issues, you might of course not catch the difference.

I admit to personally being wary of SEOs (too many bad experiences), but as said elsewhere in this thread there could be many reasons to reject an application which have nothing to do with it.

I'm also wary of people who claim to be huge fans of &lt;insert favorite band here&gt;, just so you know your affiliations aren't being singled out /images/icons/smile.gif

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Hi all:

I just received the following Private post from an ODP editor in reference to this thread:

"you should stop flaming the ODP. do you have nothing better to do than insult people? I think the only reason you are annoyed is that you were rejected as an editor. if you think that this will help you, you are grossly mistaken. now kindly go away. thanks!"

If this is to be the standard that ODP editors are going to use in this forum then it is doomed to extinction.

To my knowlege I have flamed no one and have simply tried to bring up issues I would like more information on. IMO If some ODP editors cannot stand the heat, they should stay out of the kitchen.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Mel,

I sincerely apologize for the conduct of the person who sent you the message. Please forward it to me so that we can address this issue with the editor involved.

Please note that we in no way condone such behavior on the part of our member-editors.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

Sorry but I cannot seem to find a way to forward the actual message to you, but a close examination of my post should give you the information you need

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

The person who wrote said message, spoke for him/herself and not for the community at large.

Part of the purpose of these fora is to once and for all put a stop to certain misconceptions, and the actions of writing you said email is intolerable and certainly not the views of those who built this board.

As an editor I apologize for this, in my opinion you have asked nothing more than constructive questions; and I am sorry that the actions of one may have spoiled your perception of the community at large.

Re: Are SEO practioners not welcomed as editors?

As a reminder to all, editors and members alike, from the guidelines of this board:

"Please remember that you are expected to be courteous and polite in all your communications. Flames, slanderous/offensive comments and advertising is strictly forbidden. Editors should in addition pay attention to the section below related to editor specific codes of conduct, which are based on the ODP editor guidelines."

The keywords here are "all communications". Also, editors take note that these guidelines are based on the official ODP editor guidelines for communications and codes of conduct.