Cat move - what happens if

Isometric

Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
28
If I request a move and the editor for the current cat removes the listing from the public gaze and then passes the request to the next editor to be listed in their category. Will the RSS feed you give to the SEs be missing the listing in question until it is added to the new cat?

If I am not aware of a move and I see that the listing is missing then re-submit the site. Will that be considered spamming and will the listing be blocked?

How harsh are you guys in regard to multiple submissions? Will you ever remove a listing that has already been added because someone has sent multiple requests for it to be listed in a different category?

Will a listing be blocked if there is another listing that is submitted that has duplicate content to a current listing and was submitted after the original listing?

Is a site ever denied listing based upon the aesthetics of the editor ?
 

hutcheson

Curlie Meta
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
19,136
>If I request a move and the editor for the current cat removes the listing from the public gaze and then passes the request to the next editor to be listed in their category. Will the RSS feed you give to the SEs be missing the listing in question until it is added to the new cat?

The process you describe SHOULD not happen (very often). But when it does, the site does disappear from the RSS feed.

>If I am not aware of a move and I see that the listing is missing then re-submit the site. Will that be considered spamming and will the listing be blocked?

That should not ever happen.

>How harsh are you guys in regard to multiple submissions? Will you ever remove a listing that has already been added because someone has sent multiple requests for it to be listed in a different category?

As harsh as we have to be, to stamp it out. The submittal policies are pretty explicit about multiple submittals -- there is no limit to the damage you can do to your reputation, and the reputation of everyone connected with you. A persistent submitter can get sites associated with himself removed, just by aggressively suggesting some other site.

On the other hand, if a lesser response than ultra-dirty nukes has a possibility of protecting the editors from harassment, while preserving some useful information for the surfers, then we'd prefer that approach.

>Will a listing be blocked if there is another listing that is submitted that has duplicate content to a current listing and was submitted after the original listing?

Suggesting multiple sites associated with the same entity and/or person, even with non-duplicate but similar content, automatically puts editors in the mode of thinking "how can we protect ourselves and our users from this kind of spam?" We'll do whatever it takes.

Which raises a question: if someone has multiple unlinked (but related) sites, could a competitor cause them trouble by suggesting the various "fraternal mirrors"?

And the answer is, nobody will care a whole lot if that happens (because an honest businessman wouldn't be doing that in the first place: someone proud of his reputation is going to make sure that all his sites contribute directly to his reputation, and vice versa.) Now, I've never seen it happen. I've never looked very hard for it either. I don't THINK it happens very often.

But anyone can easily make sure it doesn't happen, just by setting up his websites as if he were an honest businessman. I heartily recommend that approach, even though it is NOT what a lot of SEO professionals do. (people who aren't willing to stake their reputation on each one of their websites, deserve the reputation of a fly-by-night fraud.)

>Is a site ever denied listing based upon the aesthetics of the editor?

Editors have been warned, and even removed, for doing that. It is a form of abuse. Which is to say, it happens, but apparently not very often.

Concerning the more general question of inappropriate site rejections, the "negative error rate" for the ODP is, so far as I've been able to tell, around 1%. Which means it is just flat not worth systematically reviewing each rejection to catch those errors, when there are so many good sites that have never received even a first review. If the world were different than it is -- if we had too many editors and too few people generating websites -- then obviously the most important aspect of the system would be to duplicate editor effort to maximize website coverage. But the world is not that. We have too many people creating websites, and editors are the critical resource. Therefore the most important aspect of system design is: how efficiently can editors find and add good sites? It's better to fail to list 1% of good sites by accident, than to fail to list 50% of them because editors were systematically duplicating work!

As it is, we seem to be failing to list maybe 20-30% of obviously listable sites, through a combination of (mostly) failure to review, and (very rarely) failure to list after review. Which sounds bad, but is still better than anyone else is doing.
 

Isometric

Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
28
Hi Hutcheson,

Thanks for the detailed response, there are a few things I would like to expand upon though.

hutcheson said:
As harsh as we have to be, to stamp it out. The submittal policies are pretty explicit about multiple submittals -- there is no limit to the damage you can do to your reputation, and the reputation of everyone connected with you. A persistent submitter can get sites associated with himself removed, just by aggressively suggesting some other site.

What I was trying to ask here was more along the lines of how easily can you get in trouble by accident. i.e.. thinking your submittal has been neglected and re-doing it then getting in to trouble for it, or even having someone else submit your site without you knowing. This leads me to the question. How long should one wait before deciding that a submission has been neglected?

hutcheson said:
As harsh as we have to be, to stamp it out. The submittal policies are pretty explicit about multiple submittals -- there is no limit to the damage you can do to your reputation, and the reputation of everyone connected with you. A persistent submitter can get sites associated with himself removed, just by aggressively suggesting some other site.

I have a few questions about this, firstly. What I was meaning was, do you consider it spamming if someone just submits a site 2 - 3 times possibly by accident, or do you just assume the worst ?

Furthermore, I was asking, will you actually remove an already listed site, if someone then submits to you that same site again. i.e.. an invalid submission.

If this is the case, what measures do you take to stop people from manipulating this system by spamming submissions for competing sites with the aim of having their competitors removed from the database?

hutcheson said:
Suggesting multiple sites associated with the same entity and/or person, even with non-duplicate but similar content, automatically puts editors in the mode of thinking "how can we protect ourselves and our users from this kind of spam?" We'll do whatever it takes.

Which raises a question: if someone has multiple unlinked (but related) sites, could a competitor cause them trouble by suggesting the various "fraternal mirrors"?

Would a site for Sydney hotels be considered similar to a site for Cairns Hotels or Melbourne Hotels ? Where does similar end ?

This also leads me to the question, before you assume that duplicate content is submitted by the same people, do you check to see if the domains are registered to the same people or company?

hutcheson said:
And the answer is, nobody will care a whole lot if that happens (because an honest businessman wouldn't be doing that in the first place: someone proud of his reputation is going to make sure that all his sites contribute directly to his reputation, and vice versa.) Now, I've never seen it happen. I've never looked very hard for it either. I don't THINK it happens very often.

This I think is little too broad, I know that one of the domains on our server has a site on there that is a direct copy of another site we have, it has been on there for god knows how long and I have no idea why it was on there(I have removed it now by the way). There has always been a policy in this company to do all our development within white hat recommendations and we have built our business on these principals, and I must say that I have not come across anyone saying anything contrary to this, but the fact is that that domain could have been used against us. I only mention all this because I think there is a little too much eagerness these days to leap to the conclusion that any company with lots of domains must be doing something illicit or shifty.

Thanks.
 

nea

Meta & kMeta
Curlie Meta
Joined
Mar 28, 2003
Messages
5,872
Isometric said:
What I was trying to ask here was more along the lines of how easily can you get in trouble by accident. i.e.. thinking your submittal has been neglected and re-doing it then getting in to trouble for it, or even having someone else submit your site without you knowing. This leads me to the question. How long should one wait before deciding that a submission has been neglected?
When you suggest a site for review, the suggestion doesn't go away until it is either listed or declined a listing. Suggesting the site again to the same category where it's already waiting for review doesn't make a review happen quicker; your new suggestion will overwrite the old one waiting there, that's all.

Just in case your site suggestion was removed by mistake or never made it in the first place you can safely and without the risk of being branded as a spammer suggest it again (once!) after, say, six months or so. Accidental removal pretty much only happens when somebody has suggested their site many times to different categories, and an editor goes through the duplicates, so there's another reason not to do that!

I have a few questions about this, firstly. What I was meaning was, do you consider it spamming if someone just submits a site 2 - 3 times possibly by accident, or do you just assume the worst ?

Furthermore, I was asking, will you actually remove an already listed site, if someone then submits to you that same site again. i.e.. an invalid submission.

If this is the case, what measures do you take to stop people from manipulating this system by spamming submissions for competing sites with the aim of having their competitors removed from the database?

You'll appreciate that we don't divulge the details of our spam fighting ;)

Our priority is building a good directory for the users -- that is, the people looking for information. It would be pointless to remove a good, working site because somebody makes a few mistaken submissions. We'd sigh a little, maybe, but we're human -- we allow for human mistakes.

The question of malicious competitors trying to get others' listings removed by spamming us is asked occasionally; I have never seen or heard of that happening in the directory. I can imagine that it might be theoretically possible, but the possibility is extremely small.

Would a site for Sydney hotels be considered similar to a site for Cairns Hotels or Melbourne Hotels ? Where does similar end ?
A hotel's own site would always be unique, I would think. Hotel booking sites on the other hand are plentiful and our users aren't particularly well served by having eight different ways of booking the same hotel -- not if they can go directly to the hotel's own site. Wouldn't you agree? On the other hand, some booking sites have hotel reviews, which might be useful content. It's impossible to draw up an all-encompassing rule for this; editors learn by experience.

This also leads me to the question, before you assume that duplicate content is submitted by the same people, do you check to see if the domains are registered to the same people or company?
We usually don't care at all about who suggests a site -- it's the site's content that matters. If it is the same content as on another site, well, then only one of those sites (at most) can be listed.

{moz}
 
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