Complaint [split from ODP editors are so slow]

ODP editors are not only slow

The ODP is the only organization in the modern world that proudly puts out a customer service announcement like this one.

How long should I wait before I resubmit?
The simple answer is "forever".

Not even with a wink. The ODP doesn't have a problem with speed; it has a problem with reality.

Alex75, I strongly suggest that you read this thread starting at item#1

riz said:

Alex75, I strongly suggest that you read this thread starting at item#1

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Please just suggest what you wish I would bear in mind.

Alex 75 - please read post #19.

lmocr said:

Alex 75 - please read post #19.

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I have, and learned nothing new. This is directly from the ODP's manual:

How long should I wait before I resubmit?
The simple answer is "forever".

What is your problem with that particular statement? It's just another way of saying you shouldn't resubmit, which is true. Submit once and forget about it. Resubmitting is, by and large, pointless.

By the way, the reason they were urging you to read the thread you'd posted in is that the thread was meant to be humourous. jdaw1 is a former editor who was making light of some of the things that get posted here. The fact that you reread it and still didn't get it is why I've split your posts into a new thread. The original thread is http://resource-zone.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=41913 .

Alex, your really big mistake is assuming (against all the voluminous evidence!) that's a customer service announcement.

A customer service announcement would be something like "after clicking on a category link to look for some relevant websites, how long should I wait before clicking on any particular website link? The simple answer is: do it whenever you wish."

motsa said:

What is your problem with that particular statement? It's just another way of saying you shouldn't resubmit, which is true.

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No, it isn't. You wouldn't resubmit once you get listed. So the more logical implication is that the ODP could take forever to list you!

It is. Once you've submitted your site, you shouldn't resubmit it. It will be reviewed eventually -- resubmitting will not speed up the process and, in fact, *could* slow it down. So, saying you should wait forever to resubmit is the same as saying you should never resubmit.

Perhaps you're misreading the statement.

hutcheson said:

Alex, your really big mistake is assuming (against all the voluminous evidence!) that's a customer service announcement.
A customer service announcement would be something like "after clicking on a category link to look for some relevant websites, how long should I wait before clicking on any particular website link? The simple answer is: do it whenever you wish."

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Big mistake? Voluminous evidence? Is there some universal definition for customer service announcement? Should a CSA be what you say? Some context:
submitter = customer
ODP = service
"You might have to wait till the feathers begin to grow" = announcement

So the more logical implication is that the ODP could take forever to list you!

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Which is true and ODP makes no secret of that nor claims to the contrary. The ODP does not provide any services to webmasters or submitters - they are suppliers of materials making a speculative pitch for inclusion. Not customers. Yahoo works on a different model - there the webmasters are the customers.

I get mailshots daily from insurance companies inviting me to take out one of their products. I am under no obligation to respond in any way at any time, I am their prospective customer, they aren't mine. Same with ODP - your suggestion is the equivalent of a mailshot and ODP is your prospective customer - you suggest the material editors might want to list and if they feel like buying they will by listing it.

oneeye (former editall/catmv)

Some context:
submitter = customer
ODP = service

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Ah, see. That's where you're floundering here.

surfer = customer
data users = customer

submitter != customer

ODP = service to surfers
ODP = service to data users

ODP != service to webmasters

By the way, the quote you're getting hung up on is not from an "ODP manual" but is from the FAQ for this forum. This is an unofficial forum run by a group of ODP editors and nothing that is written here could or should be in any way construed as an ODP manual. All official ODP documentation is found at dmoz.org, not here.

I think it is obvious with the amount of submissions, resubmisisions, re-resubmissions, etc., on a daily basis versus the number of editors..... it's going to take awhile. period.

motsa said:

So, saying you should wait forever to resubmit is the same as saying you should never resubmit.

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Which would have made sense had there not been people who have waited two years to get listed. Sooner or later the ODP will wake up to the fact that this culture of delay, which is actually being glorified by some, keeps the organization severely out of touch with the realities of the internet world.

motsa said:

Ah, see. That's where you're floundering here.

surfer = customer
data users = customer

submitter != customer

ODP = service to surfers
ODP = service to data users

ODP != service to webmasters

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Surfers and data users can be submitters.
Surfers and data users can be webmasters
The World Wide Web has no room for the simplistic, straitjacket
logic of yesteryear.

Sooner or later the ODP will wake up to the fact that this culture of delay, which is actually being glorified by some, keeps the organization severely out of touch with the realities of the internet world.

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Correction Alex 75

Its not culture of delay its a Culture of Careful Brilliant Analogy and Unique Site Content Review by ODP Editors.

realities of the internet world

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Reality - Hmmmm

Happy New Year.

Alex, you're still confusing your fantasies with reality.

Yes, absolutely, the same person may be a webmaster or a surfer. Just as the same person may need food and shelter.

But when you need shelter, you do not go to the local Kroger's grocery, and demand that they set you up an apartment! If you did that, everyone would know you were insane.

It is no different in the online world. When a person is looking for good websites, the ODP is here. When anyone is looking for webmaster services, the ODP is -- busy doing something else.

You'll notice for ODP customers looking for ODP services, THERE ISN'T A DELAY. And when delay got to be a big problem a couple of years or so ago -- that is, when real surfers and searchers, searching or surfing the dmoz.org website, were getting timeouts and related problems -- the ODP sponsor put a great deal of work into adding server capacity -- multiple dedicated Sun systems -- to handle the load. That's customer service. And nobody asked whether those customers might (on some other occasion) engage in webmastering or related activity, no, NEVER! because the confusion in YOUR mind was NEVER in THEIR minds.

Just like Kroger's management NEVER believed that people don't need shelter, and Home Depot management NEVER believed that people don't need food. And Red Cross management NEVER believed that people only need food and shelter after disasters!

It's just that organizations are formed to focus on meeting particular kinds of needs; and successful organizations focus on what they can do well.

And ... what you want, the ODP cannot do well, and the ODP community has zero interest in doing. And that last is an insurmountable barrier for a volunteer community.

I am astonished at the kind of ignorant arrogance that some people display -- as if they owned the net and nobody else could play. Alex, you do not own the net. The web has room for many things. I doubt not it even has room for you, Alex. But fortunately, you are not the Czar of the web -- and much will fit in the web that will never fit into your mind -- or, for that fact, even into the much broader mind of surfers who are not so blinded by our own immediate commercial advantage, and have learned to find online information meeting a broad range of human needs.

And that's OK. That is good. Anyone who wants to pay for server space can try to fit something new into the net. Who are YOU to say otherwise?

Which would have made sense had there not been people who have waited two years to get listed. Sooner or later the ODP will wake up to the fact that this culture of delay, which is actually being glorified by some, keeps the organization severely out of touch with the realities of the internet world.

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Your whole rant would have made more sense had you just led with the "ODP doesn't review suggested sites fast enough for me" thing instead of ranting about an FAQ entry that tells people not to resubmit their site.

No one is glorying any delay. We're merely telling you that the delay exists and that clearing the delay (i.e. reviewing suggested sites) is not our priority. We do it but it isn't our primary task as editors. Our primary task as editors is to grow the directory. If that is done by going out and finding sites on our own from newspapers or billboards or ads on TV, fine. If it's done by searching Google, fine. If it's done by processing suggested sites, fine. The method of finding the sites isn't the important thing, the finding of the sites is.

Surfers and data users can be submitters.
Surfers and data users can be webmasters
The World Wide Web has no room for the simplistic, straitjacket
logic of yesteryear.

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But they're only our "customers" when they're not wearing their submitter or webmaster hats. Whatever they expect of us when they are acting as submitters or webmasters is not what we provide.

Well said Hutcheson...
Even thought the web provides us an avenue for instant information, that information still needs to be reviewed and processed, and the web cannot do that without help.
I think we all sometimes suffer from the need for "instant gratification" and delays are met with resistance.
john