Dizzily spinning in Catch 22's

This so confuses me that I may be unable to explain the confusion adequately. For about a year now, we at Chivalry Steel have been hoping to be listed in the Open Directory. We keep running into tangles which have until now prevented success. The first is that at least once, we have submitted to be listed on some other site or directory, which apparently also caused a submission here, which caused us to inadvertantly violate an overlapping submission rule, which invoked ire and led to submission failure.

Another problem is RE-submission timing. We have never been declined for submission that I know of, and yet we have applied for inclusion several times that I know of. How do we know when we am waiting for an answer, as opposed to when a tacit answer has occurred and we should stop waiting, fix a problem, and re-submit? Since we have never received negative feedback about a submission, or advise about reasons for denial, how do I determine where we have gone awry, and when to submit the solution?

And then there's the problem of uniqueness versus most appropriate category. The site in question: http://chivalrysteel.com includes three very related, yet distinct features. The first is a comprehensive indexed discussion of steel and swords which is designed to satisfy non-technical interest in a manner which is accurate but not dry.

The second feature is an online quiz built on expert system rules, which collects information about sword interests; then classifies the interests and offers general advice and Internet search keywords which may help the guest to find a sword online which suits personal tastes. Although designed to be informative, this feature is also designed to be entertaining.

The third feature is a products section which offers items which have been found elsewhere online but at highly inflated prices, or which are difficult to find online at all, and in either case, which are related to swords.

So... We call the Chivalry Steel site "The Quest for the Perfect Sword" but, of course, there is no Open Directory category for quests. Lacking specific feedback about why submissions have never resulted in listings, we believe that improper category selection has been part of the problem. ANY single category is unlikely to relate well to all features of the site, but the combination of these three features IS, to our knowledge, unique online. We are discouraged from calling our site both informational and commercial, but may be considered misplaced in either single category.

So! Short version: we wish to know how to know when to re-submit our site and what to fix to succeed in the submission. Specific advice in advance about which category most suits the site's features would also be appreciated.

Ultra-short version: Help!?

I'm thinking:
http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Antiques_and_Collectibles/Militaria/Swords/

Thank you very much, but my vague recollection is that the general area 'shopping' has caused previous placement problems because of the mainly informational content of the site (300 some odd pages, less than 30 in products...).

And we're still stuck as to when to submit the site, and as to what to do to respond to the objections which caused it to be declined, because those objections have not been voiced to us, and we see no problems as per the guidelines.

Thanks again for the category suggestion.

Regarding the status of submissions you've already made, the Site Submission Status forum is the place to ask about that. We don't notify submitters so it's really the only way for you to find out.

RE: the suggestion of http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Antiques_and_Collectibles/Militaria/Swords/ as a category to submit to, your commercial content is skimpy at best -- 8 swords as well as 4 scabbards, 2 girdles, and a sword frog but the pics don't load on those last three pages -- the rest of the commercial pages are empty with just "we don't have any of these" or "we're still testing these" notes. So, it's possible the site wouldn't be accepted for a Shopping listing right now given the issues with the product pages and likely wouldn't be accepted for an informational listing because of the Shopping content. So, the Catch-22 situation is largely of your own making.

The first is that at least once, we have submitted to be listed on some other site or directory, which apparently also caused a submission here, which caused us to inadvertantly violate an overlapping submission rule, which invoked ire and led to submission failure.

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Overlapping submissions do not invoke ire and do not cause submissions to be deleted.

My apology for the presumption of ire. That presumption was without direct evidence, but your guidelines do discourage submission while under review in very strong language, and do specify (if my memory of the page is accurate, which is certainly not assured...) remedies such as deletion of all appllications and banning...

Regarding the multi-category problem, I completely agree that the site does not stand on the merit of product alone. The commercial content of the site has been limited to what is genuinely believed to be in buyer's best interest, not ours. But is it doomed to solely commercial listing because products are offered? In my field of interest, the most respected informational sites (museums, NPO's, etc.) also offer some product content. With several hundred pages of informational content (rivaling all but the top very few in the field), isn't there genuine qualification as an informational resource? That was certainly the intent in the effort...

One is hard pressed to find conceptually unique content in ANY site today, and yet the Chivalry Steel site has the only objective expert system that I am aware of for winnowing down the myriad of possible meanings, applications, and well... just preferences, invoked by 'sword'.

The unlinked images referred to are the site in transition, and may I suggest that a site worth viewing is probably always in transition? Not a week has gone by that some change hasn't occurred in the Chivalry Steel site. Growth disqualifies a site from inclusion? I submit that less that two percent of the links within and out of the site are dead, and that doesn't qualify as stable? As an admission on this particular point, we are somewhat caught with our virtual pants down. The content addition for the new items mentioned was interrupted to address critical marketing problems (like non-inclusion here, for example...).

The most influential search tools available all respect your judgment, so it is unquestionable,and yet... Here I am a year or so into hoping to be mentioned for a resource which all my evidence says is content intensive, unique in more than one way, um... spelling concious..., in short, everything I would look for when searching myself.

Maybe the best thing is to suggest a category like sword_suggestions? A thing, within any domain, can't actually 'be classifiable'. That is: 'be' implies action, and the thing is the object of classification, not the classifier. It falls to the classifier, which is the actor, to find the means to properly classify, or not. And that may be why I feel helpless in this.

Chivalry Steel has been given literally 1000's of hours of my life, so whatever extra effort remains to bring it to legitimacy by the most respected judgement it so little more. I just don't know how to make it fit a pre-conceived mold without destroying what is unique about the site.

Hmmm.... To drift slightly off-topic... 'Y'all' have been exposed to enough of my drivvel to have an opinion. Should I perhaps just apply as an editor in a category which might be suitable for Chivalry Steel? I see that this has worked for many, many others. Advice?

I do wish people would stop trying to take my title from me... I am the most long-winded, it has been proven.

OK, DMOZ hat off, personal opinion hat on, meter ticking.

Why not separate the sites? A non-commercial site with lots of nice content might be considered. An affiliate style link to a separate shopping site would probably not affect the decision provided the informational site was of very high quality. The shopping site would not be listed by the sounds of it due to lack of content.

Normally splitting a site is not in your DMOZ interests - we only list one and if all of them are insufficient in content none would get in. In this case, it might be the only solution.

But, big but... A DMOZ listing isn't the great fantastic prize of all time some people think it is. Sites do very well without it. If your site is doing fine, don't rock the boat by altering things just to make it DMOZ compatible - quite often it doesn't work anyway.

DMOZ hat back on.

The main way to get listed in DMOZ is for your site to be the most definitive in its field. Forget my site is better than the worst one already listed, you site has to be better than the best one already listed to stand the greatest chance. You've been given some feedback here, more than most get, that the shopping side is weak. Work on it but bear in mind the big but above. Then get as close as you can to the best fit category - if an editor disagrees they will move it.

Should I perhaps just apply as an editor in a category which might be suitable for Chivalry Steel?

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I'm not a meta editor so I have no say in editor appointments but I would say your chances of success with a motivation presumably to list the site are probably extremely poor.

The unlinked images referred to are the site in transition, and may I suggest that a site worth viewing is probably always in transition? Not a week has gone by that some change hasn't occurred in the Chivalry Steel site. Growth disqualifies a site from inclusion?

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It is the nature of web sites to be continually "under construction" but broken graphics isn't an indication of a site undergoing growth, it's an indication that someone made a mistake.

The biggest problem I see that you have right now is that you don't seem to have actually submitted the site anywhere. Just pick a category that seems close, submit the site, and then sit back and wait. We'll find the best place for it when it gets reviewed. Sitting here and discussing the merits of the site and where you think it should go is not getting the site someplace where someone can eventually review it.

If you've already submitted it (more than a month ago), go to the Site Submission Status forum and ask for a status (after reading the forum guidelines for info about how to phrase the request). [added: which I see you've already done ]

Should I perhaps just apply as an editor in a category which might be suitable for Chivalry Steel? I see that this has worked for many, many others. Advice?

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Personally, I would avoid doing this in your case because, really, your reason for applying is to get your site listed (whatever else you might do while there). If you would really like to help us out, feel free to apply for a category unrelated to your site and pitch in.