Does one MLM product spoil the whole bunch?

The listing guidelines for MLM sites were discussed in great detail in the thread http://www.resource-zone.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=4399&page=5&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1 .

However, the question of a shopping site that includes an MLM product, along with traditional products was not addressed.

Do the guidelines permit the listing of such a site assuming the site has unique shopping content (i.e., unique prices)?

Two things:

1) "unique shopping content" is not equal to "unique prices". its more like "products you are selling+sending yourself" - if you sell MLM-ware for another price (for example you could reduce it by half the amount you get from the main company) it does not get unique.

2) If a site offers unique content, and the quantity is big compared to the MLM (and other affiliate, ...) content, we list the site.
Remember: It's the editors decision, as always. Especially in MLM-crowded areas editors tend to just take a quick look before rejecting.

What does "quick look" mean?

Well, suppose I'm checking out klitchware.com. Now I've been reviewing SMC spam all day, and I know their line of ceramic doghouses backward and forward. So the FIRST thing I look at is klitchware.com/crockware/hand-daubed/kennel.htm. If it's the SMC item, the review is over, that site is shardware, and all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't get it re-reviewed.
And that's why, YES, you should expect one MLM product to spoil the whole bunch. Call it "guilt by association" -- but the webmaster controls who he associates with, therefore complete responsibility rests with the victim -- which is as close to justice as you can get in this life.

Hutcheson,

YES, you should expect one MLM product to spoil the whole bunch. Call it "guilt by association" -- but the webmaster controls who he associates with, therefore complete responsibility rests with the victim -- which is as close to justice as you can get in this life.

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I see McCarthyism is alive and well at ODP! <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Your disgust for MLM comes through loud and clear, however your logic escapes me. I was hoping for a more rational discussion. My interpretation of your response is that a site with a MLM product among its offerings can be justifiably blacklisted forever, regardless of any other content. I thought CONTENT was the only thing ODP officially cared about. Having an MLM product doesn’t automatically wipe out all other content. I really do enjoy your replies, although they are becoming fairly predictable.

Winharp,

2) If a site offers unique content, and the quantity is big compared to the MLM (and other affiliate, ...) content, we list the site.

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Your response seems more logical. The $64,000 question is “What is unique shopping content”? I’ve heard multiple definitions from editors posting on these forums.

"unique shopping content" is not equal to "unique prices". its more like "products you are selling+sending yourself"

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In a previous thread, another editor stated "unique pricing structures, discounts, and so on is just a way of saying unique content"

Can we get further clarification on what unique shopping content is?

Thanks

As I said before: Its very much up to the editor. The Shopping FAQ states:

"The key is that the site contains three elements: lists of products for sale, prices, and information on how the consumer can obtain the product from their own home."

The more of this is unique, the better the chances for being put into the directory.

Windharp,

Thanks for the clarification.

You can't expect a Shopping/ editor to be totally familiar with EVERY product line known to man in order to immediately identify a "unique" product when it is encountered. All that most of us can hope for is to become good at (A) recognizing an MLM product and (B) remembering - from past experience, mind you - that when there's one MLM product on a site there is an overwhelming chance that there's a bunch more also sold on this site.

Your site could always be the exception, but you'll have to prove to the casual visitor that there's _plenty_ more than MLM stuff to be found. MLM main companies ARE listed, but their "agents/associates" are not. This is not going to change. Unique pricing in this one area of the shopping world is just too time-consuming to verify. I personally don't believe that a single MLM product will (usually) disqualify a Shopping site, but once a few are found you'll start looking like an agent/affiliate to me and probably to others.

Kctipton,

I personally don't believe that a single MLM product will (usually) disqualify a Shopping site, but once a few are found you'll start looking like an agent/affiliate to me and probably to others.

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“So I still have a chance” (picture Jim Carrey in the movie “Dumb and Dumber” <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />)

It seems that unique pricing alone would not be sufficient for a listing due to the difficulty of verification. In this case, I assume it would be prudent to include a note in the description pointing out the unique information and products that the site offers.

The logic is simple. An editor is not going to check every single one of 30,000 SMC products on every one of umpteen thousand SMC affiliate sites.

They will check enough to see that a site is an SMC affiliate.

If two of three checked products are SMC-sourced, what is the reasonable presumption?

A) The other product is the company's own genuine unique product, whose uniqueness they desire to conceal by camouflaging it among blatantly non-unique affiliate products

B) The site is pure affiliate spam, and they have obtained affiliate status from another, as yet undetermined, affiliate program.

The simple fact is, if YOU go to the trouble of looking at 10,000 shopping sites, AT LEAST 9,990 of them will be case (B), and at least, um, zero of them will be case (A). Feel free to check this for yourself...I certainly have.

Now, as to the logic. Which makes more sense: to spend a lot of time looking at a site that in your experience is almost certainly pure spam, or to go looking somewhere else for good sites to add to the directory? The answer is as close to a no-brainer as you could hope for.

But you don't have to understand the editing logic. All you need to understand is the editing process. And, assuming you're one of the few, the proud, the ... differently sane, who WANT to hide their unique products among MLM products, then you can protect yourself against prejudice by the simple expedient of ... labelling all your products with its source.

Hiding information may get an eligible site rejected. Giving information would get the same site listed.

Hutcheson,

Now, as to the logic. Which makes more sense: to spend a lot of time looking at a site that in your experience is almost certainly pure spam, or to go looking somewhere else for good sites to add to the directory? The answer is as close to a no-brainer as you could hope for.

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That logic was clearly explained in the referenced thread by Khym (last message), and is not what I have a problem understanding. It’s your unqualified blacklisting and your “guilt by association” rhetoric.

Sure, it is easier to ignore all possible spam and simply apply a simple “greedy algorithm” to the editing process, but I believe the benefit of a human edited directory is the ability to perform a reasonable amount of exploratory searching if the submitter points out exactly where he believes his unique content is. This content should not have to be a company’s own product (many manufactures don’t even sell direct), but a unique and useful collection of products with unique product information and pricing.

[edited to remove silly accusation - daveg]

I'm not hutcheson, but I can't resist <img src="/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

&gt;&gt; Looking at your editor bookmarks, you have a link to...

Ehm... now take a breath, and while sipping your coffee think about this... Editor bookmarks are a separate area from the main ODP, not included in the RDF dump, and provided so that editors can collect and organize sites in a way that will be useful for their editorial job.

Now please feel free to check the bookmarks cat of most metas to find collections of the most blatant, spammy crap you have ever seen. Sure, some subcats may contain great sites that have been placed there to mine interesting links, a few personal sites, but in subcategories with nice "innocent" names you'll sure find volumes of trash sites that we regularly throw out of regular categories.

Sooo... why do you think they're actually hold there for, by most of us ? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

I guess Hutcheson isn’t the only one eager to jump to conclusions <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> . Hutcheson, please accept my apologies. Now where is that coffee!

Dave

&gt;But I believe the benefit of a human edited directory is the ability to perform a reasonable amount of exploratory searching if the submitter points out exactly where he believes his unique content is.

If that information is clear and prominent on the site, this is a reasonable expectation.

&gt;This content should not have to be a company?s own product (many manufactures don?t even sell direct) ...
of course not.

&gt;but a unique and useful collection of products with unique product information and pricing.
It would be very difficult to come up with such a site that WOULDN'T come across as "just another affiliate banner farm" -- so difficult, in fact, that the people who are talented enough to do it would be too busy with more profitable activities to bother with it . You can try it, if you wish. You can also play the lottery. IMO, you have a better chance with the lottery.

You can try it, if you wish. You can also play the lottery. IMO, you have a better chance with the lottery.

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So...you’re saying I have a chance!!! (I really like that Jim Carrey line <img src="/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> )


The product mix we deal with is in a “niche” field, and we are talking around 100 products total (not 30,000) and maybe tens of listable sites (not 1000s) that sell similar (not necessarily the same) products.

In summary,

1) Selling an MLM product together with traditional products doesn’t result in automatic exclusion.
2) Due to the (cough) reputation of MLM, the unique content must be substantial and obvious.
3) It is ultimately the editor’s decision to list, or not list the site based on his knowledge of the applied area.

Now off to create more unique content (no just for ODP, but for the user).

In summary,

1) Selling an MLM product together with traditional products doesn’t result in automatic exclusion.
2) Due to the (cough) reputation of MLM, the unique content must be substantial and obvious.
3) It is ultimately the editor’s decision to list, or not list the site based on his knowledge of the applied area.

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As someone who spends much of her time in areas where SMC sites and other affiliate content tends to show up, I feel I must add my two cents.

1. I do try to access the amount of original content. Take for example SMC content, however, MANY sites try to hide the affiliation. It doesn't fool me, it just makes it impossible for me to gage how much content there even is and I give up trying to find any very quickly and I'm much more likely to deny the site. When the source involved offers around 4,000 products it is impossible to fairly gage if the tools are not given to us. It is much smarter to be upfront, instead of changing catalog numbers to some unrelated number as that isn't as smart as it might seem. It used to take me a lot longer to identify SMC content now...and yes I have listed sites selling MLM products but that other content needs to be reasonably obvious, because as stated in some answers above--it is a very minimal number of sites that offer anything in addition to the MLM content. Also, as mentioned above--I am not spending 20 minutes on each site in hopes of finding a couple of original products when I'm recognizing one MLM product after another.

2. It is important to note that SMC, and five other dropshipping type sources all tied up together do not make original content. Some individuals seem to believe that a collective presentation that is unique to that site makes the content unique. Some products come from a variety of different sources, just because they don't come from one place doesn't make them suddenly unique--which has been the argument I've seen in the site submission status thread. We don't care that it doesn't come from one specific source, it just isn't original when we are seeing it on hundreds and thousands of sites.

3. I also don't think it is fair to say that we are excluding MLM sources due to reputation. If I added the several hundred or so sites from, for example, SMC that I ran into--how unique would that be? Several specific categories would be utterly clogged with the same merchandise. It isn't a problem with the products or the reputation of a company, it is just a matter of what is and isn't unique. 5,000 sites selling Avon are just 5,000 sites offering the same products and that isn't unique. It doesn't make Avon's products bad, it just makes them easily found. I don't know what similar products you are talking about, and it doesn't really matter IMHO. The main point is a desire to list original product sites, if a pattern of non-orignal content is found it would be unfair to list whether the content is exactly the same or almost exactly the same.

&gt;&gt; So...you’re saying I have a chance!!! (I really like that Jim Carrey line ) &lt;&lt;

Remember, the reason why that line is funny is that we know that Lloyd has no channce at all, but he sees the smallest shred of hope as a reason to live. Even he gives up after a short while.

There is a very small chance there, but don't work yourself into the ground for it.

Kokopeli,

Thank you for adding your input to this thread, especially given your extensive experience editing in the shopping tree.

While trying to keep the discussion general to benefit all readers, it seems editors tend to think of worst case affiliate/dropshipping sites, while I think of my small, specialty store, with no effort to hide any information. Some items are dropshipped, while others are bought in quantity and stored in a fulfillment house, awaiting an order. This gives us maximum flexibility in the choice of products.

I would greatly appreciate specific advice on my site, however, I prefer not to discuss this in public forum (if I give away our plans, someone might implement them first, and then they won’t be unique!). Can I send you a private message with some more information? I promise this won’t be a “tell me what to do to get listed” and the inevitable “I did what you said, why am I not listed” <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> . Let me know if this is OK.

Thanks