Duplicate Sites

webstudio2000

Member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
20
Hi,
This is my first post but could be my last depending in it's reception.

If the ODP editors work to the same rules and guidelines that they impose on everyone else, then how can numerous companies have duplicate listings.

I used to think that the ODP was an even playing field where everyone had a chance to get listed but it looks like any site that tries to compete with the big boys that are already listed gets rejected.

I have read comments from editors on this forum stating that sites must be unique or better than the existing ones but how can this be the case when they allow such open duplication.

If the editors are as they claim, independant volunteers then why is this happening, and why has the ODP become a very selective directory (Yes, it is a directory) that is only actually open to the favoured few.

One final question: Does corruption exist within the ODP ?
 

crowbar

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2006
Messages
1,760
If the ODP editors work to the same rules and guidelines that they impose on everyone else, .

Our Guidelines are open to the public here:
http://dmoz.org/guidelines/

then how can numerous companies have duplicate listings within the same category

They shouldn't, I think we'd be very interested in seeing proof of that.

I used to think that the ODP was an even playing field where everyone had a chance to get listed but it looks like any site that tries to compete with the big boys that are already listed gets rejected.

It is, so that statement is false. :)

I have read comments from editors on this forum stating that sites must be unique or better than the existing ones but how can this be the case when they allow such open duplication.

You are incorrect. What you have read is that sites must contain unique content, and they must add value to a category.

If the editors are as they claim, independant volunteers then why is this happening, and why has the ODP become a very selective directory (Yes, it is a directory) that is only actually open to the favoured few.

It is selective, that's true. No site has a right to be listed, and we're not interested in listing every site available, only sites that add value to a category for the sake of the web surfer (who is our only concern) looking for specific information. So, the favored are only the web surfers, not site owners, as we are not a listing service.

I, personally, favor the mom & pop sites, but I have to be unbiased towards them in my editing, and treat every site equally.

One final question: Does corruption exist within the ODP ?

Good question and a fair one. On the whole, no, but a few slimeballs do manage to slip in, and we're always anxious to catch them and deal with them quickly, that's why we have the "Report Abuse" form.

Crooked editors are a slap in the face and an insult to those of us who are honest.

One other thing about our Guidelines, they're called guidelines, instead of rules, because we do have editor discretion in our editing, and they exist to give us some guidance in what we do.
 

wing

Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
80
how can numerous companies have duplicate listings.

Duplicate listings are not strictl-speaking disallowed. What is against the rules is spam submitting websites. A duplicate listing is sometimes appropriate if that website offers content which is particularily helpful to multiple categories. Deeplinking (ie linking to pages deep within a website) can also happen if a particular page or section of a larger website offers valuable content which is useful to a particular category. For example a website for a shop may appear both in the appropriate Regional/ category as well as in a topical category because its inclusion in both would help different types of user.

What is specifically not allowed is for someone to submit multiple copies of a website to multiple unrelated categories or to submit the same site to the same category multiple times (see this guideline for help with that.

Having said that, with such a large directory with so many different editors I am sure there are cases of duplication that are unnecessary or have slipped through the net. If you spot any sites listed which you believe to be a case of abuse then you are encouraged to use the established abuse report system to report it.

One final question: Does corruption exist within the ODP ?
In the many years I have been an editor I have never encountered it. As with any large organisation I would be surprised if it has never occured but DMoz has established procedures for dealing with it when it is discovered.

There is a wealth of information about the topics you have asked about in the help section of the main DMoz website.
 

webstudio2000

Member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
20
I should not have said that sites were duplicated in the same category so I apologise for that.

Here is what I actually meant:

I did a search on ODP for 'garage doors' and it returned 286 results but when I started going through them I noticed several sites kept appearing and some sites were blatant in the way they had been allowed to list in similar categories, for example:

Under the search for garage doors, 13 companies had 2 listings each, and 1 company had 6 listings using different URL's to disguise it's abuse.
If you say that this is allowed because they fall into different categories then that makes a mockery of the whole thing. Thousands of sites are trying to get into the ODP in the hope that they will have a fighting chance of success and if you deny sites that do not have unique content, then I challenge you to justify that by going through the 286 results (As I did) and see how many of them actually have "Unique content". The majority of these sites do not have anything unique to offer except the fact that someone allowed them to be listed.
See below:
http://birkdaledoors.co.uk
Business/Construction_and_Maintenance/Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/Security

Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Lincolnshire/Lincoln/Business_and_Economy

http://www.garagedoors-sw.com
Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Shopping/ Home_and_Garden/Home_Improvement/Hardware/Safety_and_Security

Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/ Construction_and_Maintenance/Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows

http://www.regalgaragedoors.co.uk
Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Manchester/Stockport/ Business_and_Economy/Home_and_Garden

Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Construction_and_Maintenance/ Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows

http://www.garagedoors.uk.com
Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Regions/South_West/Business_and_Economy/ Home_and_Garden

Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Construction_and_Maintenance/ Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/Specialty_Doors

http://www.cardale.com
Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Construction_and_Maintenance/ Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/Specialty_Doors

Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Northamptonshire/Brackley

http://www.clopaydoor.com
Business/Construction_and_Maintenance/Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/ Overhead_Doors/Manufacturing

Regional/North_America/United_States/Ohio/Localities/C/Cincinnati/Business_and_Economy/ Manufacturing

http://www.clopay.com
Regional/North_America/United_States/Ohio/Localities/C/Cincinnati/Business_and_Economy/ Construction_and_Maintenance/Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows

Business/Construction_and_Maintenance/Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/ Overhead_Doors/Manufacturing

http://www.sws.co.uk
Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Construction_and_Maintenance/ Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/Specialty_Doors

Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Lancashire/Lancaster/Business_and_Economy/ Industrial

http://www.raynor.com
Regional/North_America/United_States/Illinois/Localities/D/Dixon/Business_and_Economy

Business/Construction_and_Maintenance/Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/ Overhead_Doors/Manufacturing

http://www.arrowsecurityshutters.co.uk
Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Shopping/Home_and_Garden/ Windows

Shopping/Home_and_Garden/Windows

http://www.nationwideltd.co.uk
Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Dorset/Wareham/Business_and_Economy

Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Construction_and_Maintenance/ Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/Awnings

http://www.pchenderson.com
Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/County_Durham/Bowburn/Business_and_Economy

Business/Construction_and_Maintenance/Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows

http://www.donsgaragedoors.com
Regional/North_America/United_States/Colorado/Localities/C/Centennial/ Business_and_Economy/Home_and_Garden

Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Hampshire/Eastleigh/Business_and_Economy

http://www.raynor.com
Business/Construction_and_Maintenance/Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/ Overhead_Doors/Manufacturing

Regional/North_America/United_States/Illinois/Localities/D/Dixon/Business_and_Economy

http://www.rsdoors.com
Regional: North America: United States: California: Localities: H: Hayward: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance

Regional: North America: United States: California: Localities: S: San Francisco: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance

http://www.overheaddoorofbuffalo.com
Regional: North America: United States: New York: Localities: B: Buffalo: Business and Economy
http://www.ohdstl.com
Regional: North America: United States: Missouri: Localities: S: Saint Louis: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance
http://www.ohdkc.com
Regional: North America: United States: Missouri: Localities: K: Kansas City: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance
http://www.ohdcharlotte.com
Regional: North America: United States: North Carolina: Localities: C: Charlotte: Business and Economy: Shopping
http://www.ohdatl.com/
Regional: North America: United States: Georgia: Localities: A: Atlanta: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance: Materials and Supplies
http://www.overheaddoorlubbock.com
Regional: North America: United States: Texas: Localities: L: Lubbock: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance


Regards
 

jimnoble

DMOZ Meta
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
18,915
Location
Southern England
You do realise that sites can be listed in both Topical and their localities, and that sites can be multiply listed in Topical at the editor's discretion?

Also, UK level is treated as a localised Topical so some get three listings - locality, UK Topical and Topical.

I've looked at all the UK sites you mention and their listings appear at first sight to be legitimate.
 

webstudio2000

Member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
20
Thanks for the quick reply.

Ok, assuming that according to your guidelines (which are after all only guidelines), how do any of these sites offer unique content?

The majority of these sites offer nothing unique in either content or user experience, uit seems that they have been selected for totally different reasons.

My main point through all this, is that if you have submission guidlines then why not lead by example.
If you want sites to be unique then you limit any possibility of expanding the merit of the ODP and totally contradict the idea of fair trade!

Yes, I know that the ODP is not a paid directory or a listing service but EVERYONE knows that a listing in the ODP database is one of the first steps to site acceptance by the search engines.

Like many other people, I have submitted sites to the ODP and spent many times searching to see if they had been accepted, and like many other people I have suffered the frustration of never seeing them listed and never knowing why.

There must be thousands of legitaimate small businesses out there that do not stand a cat in hells chance of succeeding.

Before anyone else asks the question, I have applied to be an ODP editor in an attempt to maintain the standards which I (possibly wrongly) believed that the ODP maintained.

Regards
 

jimnoble

DMOZ Meta
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
18,915
Location
Southern England
One thing that you might spot. Some companies spread their websites over multiple URLs and expect us to list all of them. Our submission guidelines at http://dmoz.org/add.html forbid the suggestion of related websites and also state the penalties which can be applied should they be ignored.

We're usually happy to list the main company website which presumably links to all the others. After all, if the site owner doesn't think a section is worth linking to, why ever would we?

If you should notice any such goings on during your investigations, please let us know.

[posted before reading items 6 and 7]
 

jimnoble

DMOZ Meta
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
18,915
Location
Southern England
Businesses within a sector might sell similar products but they sell them from different places, with different levels of service and at different prices. Those are their uniquenesses (if that's a word).

If you'd like a status report on your editor application, please ask for one in the Becoming an Editor section - providing the information required by its Forum Guidelines - READ BEFORE POSTING.
 

webstudio2000

Member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
20
jimnoble said:
Businesses within a sector might sell similar products but they sell them from different places, with different levels of service and at different prices. Those are their uniquenesses (if that's a word).

If you'd like a status report on your editor application, please ask for one in the Becoming an Editor section - providing the information required its Forum Guidelines - READ BEFORE POSTING.

OK,
I take on board all your points so here's a challenge.
I will send you a URL privately which I am happy for you to reject, but tell me why according to your guidlines and standards.
 

crowbar

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2006
Messages
1,760
I hope you do become an editor, webstudio2000, :) .

As jimnoble said, a site may be listed once in a Topical category like Business:

http://www.clopaydoor.com
Business/Construction_and_Maintenance/Materials_and_Supplies/Doors_and_Windows/Overhead_Doors/Manufacturing

And, once again in the Regional section of the Directory:
Regional/North_America/United_States/Ohio/Localities/C/Cincinnati/Business_and_Economy/Manufacturing

BUT, only if they qualify. For instance, here is the description of what kind of sites are accepted in the Topical category "Business" :
http://dmoz.org/Business/desc.html

And for Business/Small Business:
http://dmoz.org/Business/Small_Business/desc.html

The description for a category is up in the right hand corner of the category page - "Description".

Being a small business myself, I know where you're coming from and where you're going with this, and I've felt the same rage myself, :D , but I think I can calm you down a little.

Most small businesses, like ours, get listed in the Regional section of the Directory down at the locality (city) level. That is not a slap in the face to us, or any kind of disrespect, the Topical category of "Business" serves other purposes.

You'll notice in the Business description that some business sites might better be placed in the Topical sections of Home: Consumer Information, or Shopping, also.

If a small business sold garage doors online, they might qualify to be listed twice, once in the Topical category of Shopping, and once again in their locality within the Regional section.

I don't know this for sure, but if we small businesses were listed in Business, each category, for instance Restaurants, would have hundreds of thousands listed in it, and would have to be broken up by geographical area anyway, thus, we get placed in Regional to avoid that (the results would be the same) :) .

So, it's not an attempt to belittle small business and favor large business, if it were I know a whole lot of editors who would be raising hell about it, including myself. It's just a matter of how we can best organize the massive amounts of data we collect, :).

Now, as far as your confusion about the "Unique Content" that we look for on a site. It's not as narrow a term as you might think. What we're looking for is the unique content for the category, and that varies from category to category.

For example, in Regional, most of the Real Estate websites are cookie cutter type sites, they each contain the same buyer and seller general information that every other RE site has, so, how does that benefit the web surfer? Why not just cut to the chase and just list one of them?

The unique content we might be looking for could be individual photos and descriptions of homes that no other RE site has, or their personal profile page explaining who they are and their qualifications, their involvement in community projects, or just local information about their community.

That information might be something no other site contains, it benefits the web surfer looking at RE agents in that area, and thus, it adds value to that category.

Another example might be a website in: http://dmoz.org/Home/Gardening/Gardens/Water/

titled Joe's Water Garden and showing photos of his particular project as he was doing it and what the final results were, along with running commentary. That would be "unique content" found nowhere else, would benefit the web surfer interested in that topic, and would add value to the category (our collection of sites).

Now, if ole Joe had two websites about his water garden, and an editor didn't catch it (many editors pass through a category and stop to edit something), then that would be considered spam, and one of those sites would be deleted.

So, if you see something like that, please let us know, we don't want that.

If any of this is incorrect, another editor is welcome to correct me, I don't know everything.
 

webstudio2000

Member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
20
Crowbar,

Thanks for the additional clarification it is appreciated.

Most of my frustration stems from the fact that I actually have a very moral sense of fair play and to anyone outside of the ODP it does appear (I said appears:) )that some sites are favoured above others.
Obviously I work for a company that is having trouble being listed and the frustration is exagerated when you see ODP listings for the "big boys" who have the advertising budget and company branding to not even need the ODP, while other smaller companies are trying to achieve some kind of recognition with far less budget and non-existant branding.

I appreciate and accept your comments and those from jimnoble but it does not lessen the frustration.
I understand the reason that jimnoble gave as to why my site had not been listed; which is that it belongs to a company that has a parent website, even though no attempt had ever been made to list that website on the ODP until today, because it is a basically a link site that advertises the individual products and services available on the other sites. I wrongly assumed that it would be wrong to submit the parent site for those reasons.

Regards

Ken
 

webstudio2000

Member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
20
Thanks Crowbar but please consider this:

One reply I got from jimnoble as to why my site had not been listed was,

One thing that you might spot. Some companies spread their websites over multiple URLs and expect us to list all of them. Our submission guidelines at http://dmoz.org/add.html forbid the suggestion of related websites and also state the penalties which can be applied should they be ignored.

We're usually happy to list the main company website which presumably links to all the others. After all, if the site owner doesn't think a section is worth linking to, why ever would we?

If you should notice any such goings on during your investigations, please let us know.

But how about these:
http://www.overheaddoorofbuffalo.com
Regional: North America: United States: New York: Localities: B: Buffalo: Business and Economy
http://www.ohdstl.com
Regional: North America: United States: Missouri: Localities: S: Saint Louis: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance
http://www.ohdkc.com
Regional: North America: United States: Missouri: Localities: K: Kansas City: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance
http://www.ohdcharlotte.com
Regional: North America: United States: North Carolina: Localities: C: Charlotte: Business and Economy: Shopping
http://www.ohdatl.com/
Regional: North America: United States: Georgia: Localities: A: Atlanta: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance: Materials and Supplies
http://www.overheaddoorlubbock.com
Regional: North America: United States: Texas: Localities: L: Lubbock: Business and Economy: Construction and Maintenance

Yes, I know they are all in different categories but this really taking the P.
I repeat my earlier statement that the ODP editors should lead by example and disallow this kind of blatant saturation.
 

jimnoble

DMOZ Meta
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
18,915
Location
Southern England
They're different companies in different places with different contact details. There are none of the signs that they're part of the same family. They just happen to be using the same brand product.

Did you not notice Post 9 where I said pretty well the same thing in more general terms?

Would you expect us to list only one Ford dealer?
 

crowbar

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2006
Messages
1,760
Right, each of those are actual brick & mortar businesses with their own address, and in Regional we place sites by location, so for someone in that locality to know that there is an overhead door business located near them, and that they can get specific information about the hours of operation, where they are located, and the services they provide is very useful information for that web surfer.

The brand isn't important in that case, it's the specific business we're listing. Those are the small mom & pop businesses that have no chance of getting listed, don't you think? :)
 

webstudio2000

Member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
20
Thanks for the somewhat blinkered reply.

I will end this post because it is obvious what your positions are and of course they are beyond reproach!

Just to summarise I have finally discovered the path to success.

1 Read every single guideline ever written on the ODP.
2 Undo everything you have ever learned about fair play.
3 Learn how to interpret the guidelines to suit yourself.
4 Join the select "old school tie" network of editors.
5 Pay for hypnotherapy sessions to become holier than thou.
6 Sit back and enjoy the frustration of everyone who submits an honest site.

8 ( Optional )
Submit your own favourite sites because how could you be wrong.

9 When totally satisfied with ruining the chances of honest businesses, move on to a career in politics because who can evaid the straight answer to a question better than an ODP editor.

Regards
 

crowbar

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2006
Messages
1,760
1 Read every single guideline ever written on the ODP.

That would be helpful, especially if you wanted to be an editor, :) .

2 Undo everything you have ever learned about fair play.

I think I would change that to " Understand the ODP Guidelines that you just read, and get rid of any preconcieved ideas about a site having a right to be listed. Understand that a category is a collection of sites to benefit a web surfer, not website owners, and that sites must add value to a category."

3 Learn how to interpret the guidelines to suit yourself.

You've already found that that doesn't work, they must be interpreted correctly.

4 Join the select "old school tie" network of editors.

That would be difficult to do with over 7,000 editors from all over the world, besides, I only have one year of high school, I'm unedjacated, :) .

5 Pay for hypnotherapy sessions to become holier than thou.

I think we've been very willing to try to explain things to you. I don't feel holier than thou, maybe just a little more knowledgeble about the Directory.

6 Sit back and enjoy the frustration of everyone who submits an honest site.

Actually, I listed about 15 sites today, all of them submitted as suggestions, they all seemed to be fairly honest as far as I could tell. I sympathize with those who are waiting, but, with 10,000 or so site suggestions waiting, there's not much I can do about it.

We volunteer our time, but it's not a job, it's a community service for web surfers. As long as we keep adding good sites to the categories, we're accomplishing our goal, how many suggestions are waiting to be reviewed really doesn't affect that.

8 ( Optional )
Submit your own favourite sites because how could you be wrong.

Absolutely, and some editors don't bother with site suggestions, they go find new sites on their own, that's one of jobs.

9 When totally satisfied with ruining the chances of honest businesses, move on to a career in politics because who can evaid the straight answer to a question better than an ODP editor.

That depends on what kind of straight answer you're looking for, some questions we can't answer, others we can. Those are all stated in our posting FAQs, I believe.

We are quite good at not answering things we're not supposed to answer, I suppose, but we do try to be helpful when we can, ;) .
 
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