Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivity & growth

My story: Three weeks ago I applied to a regional category 6 levels down that contained 6 sites (it's a leaf with no children). I spent a couple of meticulous hours with the application. I disclosed my personal site and listed a few reasons why I thought my site should not be listed anywhere at DMOZ. I've received no response as of yet and that made me realize the editor approval process needs improving if DMOZ is to grow.

It's been stated that the site and editor approval queues are backed up into the hundreds per category. In my humble opinion, DMOZ will never be able to clear out the queues if Editor applications take "up to 2 months". (The unprofessionalism of "rejection without notification" simply compounds the problem. Anyone who is offering to volunteer their services should be treated with a little more respect and good, old-fashioned politeness, IMO.)

Editor approvals should be top priority. Approving one editor increases "company output" for the life of that editor. Most other DMOZ tasks (approving sites, dealing with abuse, etc), although completely necessary, do little to increase long-term productivity of the DMOZ entity. A person wiser than myself once said "Work smarter, not harder". <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />



Suggestions to reduce the backlog of editor approvals:


In 4 words: Increase barriers for application.

1) Make the application form longer or more complex This will weed out those that "don't have the time" or the inclination for detailed, meticulous, and monotonous work.

2) State that most applications will not be accepted
About.com does this well. They state with full transparency that only about 25% of the applicants are chosen. Add phrases like "only those with extensive internet experience will be accepted" for effect. This negativity will discourage applicants that don't have the experience, know-how, or confidence in their abilities.

3) Probation period
State that all new editors start on a "probational" basis for the first several months (keeping the time frame intentionally vague). During this time:
- they must login at least once a week
- they must review at least 2 sites per week
- they must check all sites in their categories once per month for guideline compliance
- their site additions &amp; removals will be logged and reviewed by Metas and any signs of abuse will result in rejection of editor priviledges.

This will weed out the fly-by-night spammers that just want to get in, add their sites, and leave forever. Spammers like "quick-n-easy", not "long &amp; tiring commitment".

4) And yet more discouraging wording <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />
"If you find the above requirements too demanding and time-consuming, then unfortunately this job is not for you. Being an editor is more like a second job than a hobby. Only serious and committed individuals should apply."

In my opinion, without more editors, most of the current editors will eventually burnout or become disenchanted with the never-ending approval queues. Being perpetually behind does nothing for morale.
 

old_crone

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
526
Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivity & gr

I actually agree with a lot of what you have expressed. But, you underestimate determined spammers. They will do the long and tiring commitment to get their spam listed, not all, but enough to make more work for the editors who care.

But for the most part your advice is sound and well presented. How well any of it will actually work if implemented? Who knows, but I have no doubt it will not solve the fact that there will still be people complaining about something that doesn't work.
 

tweedy7736

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Messages
32
Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivit

First of all, I'd like to point out that the queues are said to be backed up inot the hundreds, but not per category.

Now, comments on your suggestions:
1) It really isn't necessary to "weed out" people. If they list appropriate sites and give good descriptions, they should be accepted. If they find they do not enjoy the "monotenous" work, then they can resign. Generally, however, if you are applying to edit a directory, you have some idea of what you are getting into.
2) I don't see why you need to tell people that only 25% of applicants are accepted. It makes more sense to me to tell them that they need to give descriptions that they might actually find in the directory, so that they get an idea of what kind of descriptions our metas are looking for.
3) While I do think your suggestions on this item are a bit strenuous, requirements like these have been suggested before. Still, if you accept them and require them to do those things, there is still nothing stopping them from adding their site and leaving.
4) Once again, I don't believe the ODP should discourage people from becoming editors. You assume that most people are interested in spamming, whereas in reality, that is only true of certain areas of the directory. There is nothing wrong with a person wanting to make one edit a month in a category they are interested in, say, a certain game title. Every little bit helps, and the reasons for discouraing people from becoming editors are outweighed by the benefits of a large number of editors, each doing a little bit to build the largest human-maintained directory on the web.

By the way, good luck on your application. <img src="/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
 

donaldb

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
5,146
Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivity & gr

Your suggestions have merit, but they're not really new <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> These ideas get batted around often. It's just sometimes hard to implement change when you've got so many other things going on at the same time. It may appear that nothing is happening, but we do make changes. It's just a little slower than it would be in a non-volunteer organization.

Personally I have one person who I mentor on a regular basis, I have my eye one 7 others at the moment who are new editors that I approved, I still have to edit the categories that I volunteered for, one of which is undergoing a major reorganization. I spend time every day looking over new editor application, and new category applications for current editors. Each new app can take anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour or two to investigate. And I also participate in the internal forums for the parts of the directory where I edit, and the meta and editall forums to discuss new editors, bad editors, spammers, abusers, and projects that we may be working on to improve the directory. All together it's pretty much a full-time job <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

As much as I would love to approve more new editor applications it's just one of the many things that I need to accomplish in a short period of time. And I think this prett much goes for all of the metas who are responsible for reviewing applications. It's just a bit of a vicious circle. No time to approve new apps, to find editors to help with the work, to give you more time to approve more apps <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
 

theseeker

Curlie Meta
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
613
Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivity & gr

My first inclination is to point out flaws in the reasoning, but instead I will say, that was very well thought out and took a while a put together, and I appreciate that. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

It always looks different from the other side of the fence though. I personally believe our application process is about as efficient as it's going to get. The backlog is not that large. Let's say, in the hundreds for the entire directory, not hundreds per category. Applications that wait longer than a few weeks are rare--except perhaps in non-english cats where there are less meta-editors that speak the language.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I send at least the form letter with most rejections. If I would like the person to try again, I will include comments that point out the reasons why.

I would like to approve as many editors as possible, but no matter what I do, there will be some that are bad choices. That means everyone I approve I have to check back on, for quite a while.

As with all "job" application processes, the decision is based on percentages. What is the chance that the person who filled out the application will be a good editor, or will be easy to work with to make them a good editor? Certain things on an application improve the chance. Some things decrease the chance.

Several years of experience has already gone into making this process as efficient as possible, including making the application form longer and more complex, which happened several times, the last time not long ago. (For comparision, when I joined all I was asked for was name, email address, and reason I wanted to join. No sample sites required.)

I hope that this will at least give a little bit of perspective from this side of the fence. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
 

totalxsive

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
2,348
Location
Yorkshire, UK
Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivit

- their site additions &amp; removals will be logged and reviewed by Metas and any signs of abuse will result in rejection of editor priviledges.

Almost everything that is done at the ODP is logged (site adds, deletes etc.), and that is for all editors, not just the newbies. Bad editing usually leads to warnings, abusive editing leads to removals.
 

Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivit

Lousy applications are easy to reject <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> No time wasted, I assure you.
 

Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivit

Posted by tweedy
1) It really isn't necessary to "weed out" people. If they list appropriate sites and give good descriptions, they should be accepted. If they find they do not enjoy the "monotenous" work, then they can resign. Generally, however, if you are applying to edit a directory, you have some idea of what you are getting into.
2) I don't see why you need to tell people that only 25% of applicants are accepted. It makes more sense to me to tell them that they need to give descriptions that they might actually find in the directory, so that they get an idea of what kind of descriptions our metas are looking for.
3) While I do think your suggestions on this item are a bit strenuous, requirements like these have been suggested before. Still, if you accept them and require them to do those things, there is still nothing stopping them from adding their site and leaving.
4) Once again, I don't believe the ODP should discourage people from becoming editors. You assume that most people are interested in spamming, whereas in reality, that is only true of certain areas of the directory. There is nothing wrong with a person wanting to make one edit a month in a category they are interested in, say, a certain game title. Every little bit helps, and the reasons for discouraing people from becoming editors are outweighed by the benefits of a large number of editors, each doing a little bit to build the largest human-maintained directory on the web.
re: 2)
By telling people flat out that only 25% (or whatever the actual figure is -- I'm not suggesting lying) are accepted it will portray a no-nonsense, "very serious about this" image. If you make it seem like a cakewalk, you'll get fly-by-night editors that leave after a week of putzing around.

re: 3)
I'm not suggesting higher barriers of entry will eliminate spammers/abusers. It will though, IMHO, reduce their numbers.

re: 1) &amp; 4)
The goal of my suggestions is to reduce the number of applicants while increasing the quality. If editors have less applications to review, and the ones they do review are of higher quality, it will make a significant impact on the application queue and the number of quality editors in ODP.

Again, I'm a firm believer in high "barriers of entry". Let's use a college analogy: higher barriers of entry -&gt; higher quality students -&gt; higher quality school. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
 

Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivity & gr

Posted by theseeker
It always looks different from the other side of the fence though. I personally believe our application process is about as efficient as it's going to get. The backlog is not that large. Let's say, in the hundreds for the entire directory, not hundreds per category. Applications that wait longer than a few weeks are rare--except perhaps in non-english cats where there are less meta-editors that speak the language.

With all due respect to ODP and the volunteers, my application has been un-answered for over 24 days now and judging from the other posts in this forum, I'm not alone. Now factor in the applicants that don't take the time to create an forum account and post a thread, and we've got ourselves many potential volunteers in frustrating limbo. I suspect many who wait several weeks for a boilerplate rejection email would not feel particularly encouraged to repeat the process.

I realize it can be a difficult and thankless job, so know that I'm not blaming anyone, but I wouldn't consider the current wait period to be "ideal". <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
 

Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivit

Almost everything that is done at the ODP is logged (site adds, deletes etc.), and that is for all editors, not just the newbies. Bad editing usually leads to warnings, abusive editing leads to removals.

Then this should be in bright, flashing lights on the application form. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thieves are less likely to steal if they can see several cameras staring at them. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

My suggestions were intended to increase the perceived barriers for entry. Nothing about the internal approval process needs to change, but re-phrasing the application form with sterner wording will deter many. It won't deter everyone, but it will reduce the numbers. It's not always what you say; it's how you say it.

<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
 

mngolden

Curlie Meta
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
164
Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivit

Almost everything that is done at the ODP is logged (site adds, deletes etc.), and that is for all editors, not just the newbies. Bad editing usually leads to warnings, abusive editing leads to removals.

&gt; Then this should be in bright, flashing lights on the application form.

On the first page of the application form are two links to the Editor Guidelines, clearly saying, "read this!" One of the sections there is quite explicit about editor accounts. http://dmoz.org/guidelines/accounts.html You're right that it doesn't say explicitly on the application page (or even in the Guidelines) that editor actions are logged. However, linked on the first page of the Guidelines is the Editor Resource Zone which specifically lays out what does get logged regarding categories. http://dmoz.org/erz/features/categorylogs.html The newperms section alludes to edit logging as well. http://dmoz.org/newperms.html

&gt; Nothing about the internal approval process needs to change, but re-phrasing the application form with sterner wording will deter many.

I, like the other metas here, see what you're trying to get at (and it's a good thing!) but putting it in place is the problem. We can rework and rephrase all we want, but all official documents still require a staff member to upload them. There are a total of _two_ staff members, and one of those is dedicated solely to dealing with programming issues, with bugs having priority. So even if/when we (metas) update a document, it can sometimes take months before it is uploaded for public viewing. Just so you understand where we're coming from.
 

pborer

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2002
Messages
184
Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivity & gr

my application has been un-answered for over 24 days now
But you have received the "To complete your application process, please reply to this message." e-mail and replied to it?
 

Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivity & gr

But you have received the "To complete your application process, please reply to this message." e-mail and replied to it?

Yes, got that one and replied very soon after I submitted the application.

My experiment is useless now because an editor that read this thread has approved me. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
 

sabre23t

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
252
Welcome to the team ...

Welcome to the team, iamcanadian. <img src="/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> You may want to edit your profile with your odp editor name if it's different from your user name here.
 

giz

Member
Joined
May 26, 2002
Messages
3,112
Re: Welcome to the team ...



Looks like the same name is used; all is set up ready and waiting - currently with a blank profile, empty bookmarks, blank editing log, and an editor dashboard link to one lonely category with 6 sites in it.

You may also want to introduce yourself in the New Editors thread, then spend a day or two reading the guidllines, and looking through the last few weeks worth of forum postings to find out what it is all about.
 

sthenbelle

Meta/kMeta
Curlie Meta
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
70
Re: Humble Suggestions: Improving DMOZ productivity & gr

Welcome to the team iamcanadian; it is good to have you on board.
 
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