I am voicing my level of frustration with DMOZ

I submitted the following through the feedback form and am also posting it here because I do not trust the integrity of the DMOZ editors based on the posts I've read as I've lurked here over the last few months.

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I spent months trying to successfully submit my site to your directory. For about four months the site kept timing out (I've tried from several locations, using several different browsers, so it's not the "MSIE does not know its own IP address" issue). Well about one month ago my site was successfully submitted but it has yet to appear in the directory.

I thought that the DMOZ was supposed to be a fast alternative to Yahoo's notoriously-slow and incomplete/outdated directory? I am sending this out of frustration and am using the wearing out the delete key on my keyboard as I self-censor this message. I am extremely frustrated and am at the point where I am tempted to gister dmoz-sucks.org and publish an open letter stating my frustration and to invite others who are frustrated with the directory and the editors' self-serving actions. With that said, no I do not intend to do the above, but there is a strong temptation to do so. I am stating the temptation not as a threat, but to underscore my level of frustration with DMOZ.

Please get your act together and do what you're supposed to do, in accordance with your charter because you are hurting small startup companies who are just trying to get on an even keel with others by getting into the search engines which use the DMOZ as their backbone.

Thank you.

Regards,

Kimberly Lazarski

P.S. I am also posting this message to your messageboard because I expect a response and I don't think I will get one through this particular medium.

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Per the guidelines I am not listing my URL here, but I would like to get this resolved as soon as possible. I am extremely frustrated with DMOZ because it took four bleeping months to submit the darn URL. The fact that DMOZ was created because Yahoo is slow, incomplete, and outdated and the DMOZ editors and administrators don't resolve the DMOZ issues is unacceptable and inexcusable, and is crippling small companies.

Hi Kimberly,

Thanks for your patient persistence.

It has been a difficult year for all of us. Last spring I was getting very discouraged with all the server errors I was getting on the editing side. It was very difficult to get anything done because the server was under such a heavy load. We were given new servers, and eventually things got better. They improved for the editors before they did for the public, which makes sense, because if the public could submit, but the editors couldn't edit, what would be the value in that?

It has taken awhile to get all the servers in place and working properly, but finally we can edit with much fewer server errors, and the public can submit.

I never heard that we were created because Yahoo was too slow. We are an alternative, and a free one at that.

Things have been slow this past spring and summer. Things are picking up. Dmoz is quite useful to many people, and we are happy about that.

What you describe does not sound like anyone scheming to do anyone wrong. It's just the frustration we've all been feeling. I'm glad to put it behind me, and go forward.

the DMOZ issues is unacceptable and inexcusable, and is crippling small companies.

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We aren't crippling small companies. We are helping them, and we do it for free. If you were paying for the service, you could complain that the service is "unacceptable and inexcusable" and go elsewhere.

You can still go elsewhere. Submit to some of the other directories. You'll probably get in faster at some of the smaller ones.

We're big enough that it's wise to submit here too. You've done that - and by submitting here, you've also submitted to quite a few other directories that use our data. So frustrating as it was, rest assured, it wasn't really just one submission. By submitting here you made multiple submissions at once.

I completely understand the frustration from both editors and submitters but I would like to mention something I have noted from many posts on this forum.

"DMOZ is for the benefit of the end user and not webmasters"

I do not intend to be-little your comments as it is obvious that you are experessing the true views of yourself and many others and I accept that the whole process of submission has been very frustrating. Obviously it is just as frustrating for the editors.

However there is a misconception that DMOZ serves the business and webmaster community and it is here to serve them. This couldn't be any further from the truth. I only mention this in reply to the comment

Please get your act together and do what you're supposed to do, in accordance with your charter because you are hurting small startup companies who are just trying to get on an even keel with others by getting into the search engines which use the DMOZ as their backbone.

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DMOZ, IMHO, does a very good job in providing what its aims are - yes there are problems that happen - but that is a trait of being human! I am confident that (from what I have seen) things are getting better. DMOZ does not exist to list sites to give them a better chance against competitors - it is the job of the business themselves to make themselves stand out above the rest. DMOZ is not here to serve the business community in anyway. That is the sole thing that makes DMOZ different from ALL of the other directories.

(a) The recent server problems weren't just a problem for you (picture how frustrated that made you, then multiple it by 100 and you'll start to get an idea of how frustrating it was to us). Electronics being what they are, you can't plan for everything that can go wrong nor can you guarantee how long it will take to fix.

(b) One month wait for review isn't bad. You could wait several months, if not longer, depending on where in the directory you submitted your site. That situation isn't likely to change, regardless of how many people complain about it, because we don't have a viable alternative to the way things currently work (and I stress the word "viable" here -- lots of suggestions have been offered over the years but very few are actually useable).

(c) If a listing in the ODP is going to make or break your business, you're doing something wrong. Good SEOing doesn't require a listing in the ODP. Check out any SEO/webmaster forum for more information about how to do that.

(d) As sole said, no, the ODP wasn't and isn't intended to be a faster alternative to Yahoo. Cheaper? Yes. Better? Some of us think so. Faster? No. Our charter says nothing about how fast we'll review a site and offers no guarantee that any given site will even be listed at all, let alone in a specific timeframe.

(e) Disparaging the integrity of editors on an editor-run forum is not going to win you friends among editors.

(f) Giving us your URL will not speed up your site's review.

I'd recommend you cultivate a little patience.

Well about one month ago my site was successfully submitted but it has yet to appear in the directory....I am extremely frustrated and am at the point where I am tempted to gister dmoz-sucks.org and publish an open letter stating my frustration and to invite others who are frustrated with the directory and the editors' self-serving actions.

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You seem to have two frustrations. First the technical issues that made suggesting sites a nightmare over the Northern Hemisphere summer. I fully sympathise. It was frustrating for everyone. Most of those issues are now cleared, I hope we will all have a better set of interactions with the DMOZ software from now on.

Second, the volunteer editor community have not actioned your suggestion fast enough. There are two possible solutions to this -- one that the existing community works faster; and one that there are many more editors.

Setting up a site to help actively recruit more editors strikes me as a good initiative on your part. Though you might want to carefully review the standards applied to editors, get some editing practice yourself first, and to rethink the possible domain name as the one you suggest may not sound immediately attractive for this purpose.

We aren't crippling small companies. We are helping them, and we do it for free. If you were paying for the service, you could complain that the service is "unacceptable and inexcusable" and go elsewhere.

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Your statement MIGHT have some validity had Apple.com, Microsoft.com, esells.com, and link farms not been added to your directory, while the small shops like my own have been trying to submit our sites without any success whatsoever. Shame on you for making that statement! I've read your charter and you are to serve commercial and noncommercial sites equally, yet it's small companies like mine who are getting the shaft.

Your statement MIGHT have some validity had Apple.com, Microsoft.com, esells.com, and link farms not been added to your directory, while the small shops like my own have been trying to submit our sites without any success whatsoever. Shame on you for making that statement! I've read your charter and you are to serve commercial and noncommercial sites equally, yet it's small companies like mine who are getting the shaft.

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Like was said before, a month is not a long wait time for a submission. Usually it is longer, and could even go beyond a year. It depends on where the site was submitted.

"Link farms" are used when a site has useful and broad information.

Again, there is no guarantee that any site will be added to the directory.

I'm sorry that you have chosen to make assertations regarding our charter that are not, and never have been true.

We do not promise any site a listing

We will make every effort to build a high quality and comprehensive directory. We will make every effort to evaluate all sites submitted to the directory. However, we do not guarantee all submitted sites will get listed. We will be highly selective and judicious about sites we add, and how we organize them. Sites that we do not routinely list are outlined in our submission policies and editorial guidelines.

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The fact is that all sites are treated equally - whether you choose to believe it or not. Small operators are listed in their millions.

There are sites within the directory that would not be listed if they were submitted today, but I for one am not able to spend the time to individually check the 988,899 sites that I have access to that are listed in the branch I edit.

If you are trying for a Regional listing, the waits are comparativly short as there are lower levels of innapropriate/multiple submissions (spam). If you are trying for Shopping or Business - expect long waits no matter who you are - a major proportion of submissions are spam or unlistable sites.

If your site offered as much unique content as apple.com, and were as well known, and had been online as long, you might have justification for comparison. I'm betting none of these are true.

If Apple was a start up company that submitted their current site it would be treated in the same way, at the same pace, that yours is being treated.

Standing outside and criticising is never going to speed up any listing process. Become an editor and accept some of the responsibility you so blithely place upon us.

I don't have to be here, If I go then a few thousand of your 'small companies' will take even longer to get listed. We work as much as we want/can. Every editor that leaves because they are sick of being abused for doing unpaid work increases the delays.

You don't have to suggest your site to us, it's your choice. You don't have to be listed in DMOZ. If you think some search engines place extra weight on DMOZ, you'd be wrong. You have a problem that Google creates a quasi duplicate of the directory, talk to Google.

I've read your charter and you are to serve

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I cannot see where we are to serve anyone.

The charter says

We will do our best to list web sites in a fair and impartial manner, and consider all user requests and suggestions for improvement.

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and that's the way it is - if I see a site from IBM or Fred's computer shop they are reviewed and listed if appropriate when I see them.

If they are grossly misplaced I may just move the site for later review in it's correct category. That's something the person that suggests a site is responsible for. If they submit to the wrong place/level the actual listing more often than not will be delayed.

I don't see anyone getting upset because we have listed their site. Sites will get reviewed eventually - the fact is that the only people complaining are those whose sites have not yet been listed, or rejected.

We are not here to list every business, we are not here to increase your website hits, we are not here to help with SEO. We are here to provide a useful informational resource.

If you are the only widget manufacturer in the world, we'd be chasing a site to add. If you are the 600th website suggested to manufacturers/widgets - it's not that inportant to have site #600 for someone looking for widget manufacturers.

Do something unique, make something unique, maybe even sell something unique and we'll be trying to find a site. Be 'just another' widget sales site and it may take longer to get listed.

Kimberly, you've gotten some very good advice so far... you really need to take a step back, a deep breath, and listen to it. Berating strangers for not promoting your website for you free of charge is not going to get you anywhere; like Motsa says, if an immediate ODP listing is that critical to your business, you're doing something wrong. Please take the excellent advice and consult one of the (also free) SEO bulletin boards for some suggestions on how to improve your site traffic.

New sites in crowded fields can take months to be listed in the ODP. Most editors are more focused on quality than quantity. I like to tell people to think of an ODP listing as an award for a good and content-rich site, not an automatic right; and that takes time to judge. Besides, even if your site was listed tomorrow, who knows how long it would take Google to update from that (which is presumably what you're most interested in)? Could be 6 months. Could be more. And even then, you might be disappointed in the amount of traffic you got from it.

Please do yourself a big favor and go look into some SEO and website promotion strategies. Depending on an ODP listing is _really_really_ the wrong way to go about it.

Once upon a time I worked as a volunteer in a food co-up. One day I was on my second day of painting the walls. The walls were in poor condition, and needed some spruce up, so I ened up doing it. I paid for the paint out of my own pocket, so I just took a can of premixed that was discounted.

Some of the users of the co-op came by and complained about the color. I asked if they wanted to pay for a better can of paint, I asked them if they wanted to help, but no, they just wanted to buy the food.

They didn't seem to get the idea that the food was cheap cause people volunteered to work there.

I wasn't very polite to them, in my reply.

>> I've lurked here over the last few months. <<

Cool, so you must be fully aware that no site is guaranteed a listing, and that a site may be reviewed at any time from seconds to years after submission.


>> I thought that the DMOZ was supposed to be a fast alternative <<

I'm not aware of any one here who promised that. The ODP has nearly 4 million entries now. Some got in quite quick, others took a long time. In a forum such has thos, you'll mostly hear from people who have been waiting for a long time, or who have been rejected. It is a rare event to hear from the many people who get listed in only a matter of weeks.


>> Please get your act together and do what you're supposed to do, in accordance with your charter because you are hurting small startup companies who are just trying to get on an even keel with others by getting into the search engines which use the DMOZ as their backbone. <<

Hmm, several thousand new sites appear in the directory every single day and this has been happening for a very long time. So, editors must be editing. Ah, I see, they didn't edit your site first. Someone will get to it eventually, we just can't make promises as to when; nor does posting in this forum speed up the review. Find us some quality people to become editors... so that we can't accuse you of being a part of the problem. At the moment you aren't part of the solution either.

I am frustrated too, because I remember the good old days of a week or two max. But I also realize that the folks there (and here too) are VOLUNTEERING , i.e. they have jobs, and wives/husbands, and lives outside of MY site and the sites I submit.

So it is OK to be frustrated, I think most editors understand the level of frustration, but I am more thankful for the open directory and this message board.

We as SEO's and marketers must get over the idea that Google, Yahoo!, DMOZ and the link OWE us something. My rule of thumb is this...if you are paying for it, then you have every right to complain, but if you are complaining about something that is free, then sit back and hold tight, no one owes you anything.

You do realize it could take up to a year or more to get your site listed depending on what category you submitted to? You better be prepared for that. I saw some real good advice in this thread for you. Make sure you have address information located on your site and submit to the regional branch. It does not take as long there.

Also, I am an editor and it took over a year to get my business website listed and that was in the regional branch. My business site is still sitting in unreviewed in the topical branch of the directory where I submitted it and it has been there over 2 years. I have ethics and I am not going to use my editorship to facilitate my listing - so I continue to wait, but I also continue to edit.

Be patient. Be cool. Good Luck!

Your statement MIGHT have some validity had Apple.com, Microsoft.com . . . not been added to your directory, while the small shops like my own have been trying to submit our sites without any success whatsoever.

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Imagine for me that you are an editor of the newly created Apple category (hypothetically new of course). Now, tell me, what's the first site you're going to add to the Apple category -- the Apple site. It really is no wonder that well-known sites will be added more quickly. Part of our job is to add sites that haven't necessarily been submitted i.e. we go out and find them. Any well known site is likely to be thought of by the editor and hence added as one of the first sites of a category.

We aren't hurting anybody or anybody's business. We're here to help. I understand your frustrations with the technical troubles with submitting, and please recognize that they have been much worse for us editors. The issues are close to being resolved, and as you no doubt know, the server situation is much better than it was earlier this year.
If it's the average time the it takes for a site to be reviewed that's bugging you, perhaps you should consider applying to become an editor (volunteering) in a category that interests you. Complaining isn't the way to fix things.

I remember the good old days of a week or two max

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When I first started editing 2 years ago, I used to browse the really old forums threads from the first year. It was amazing to see much lamenting and gnashing of teeth because the total unreviewed had grown to almost 2000 sites.

Now there are over 1,000,000 (And has been said repeatedly elsewhere, much of it unlistable.)

Now, I'm off to slay some spam that just arrived in one of my categories. Then I'll write an email to a persistent submitter explaining our guidelines on where to submit and how to write descriptions, so I don't have to redo each and every one. Then I'll go back to whittling away at backlog. To give you an idea of the amount of submissions - over the course of 1 year, the unreviewed in one area has been cut by 2000 (some of it submissions, some of it editor-found links) and the category grown by 4000 sites.

It's a never-ending battle.

I think that it is great that there is a place where I can submit my site and it will be listed for free in several different places. I understand the frustration, I've been waiting about two months or so. But you know what I could pay the $300.00 and have my site listed in Yahoo, but I chose to submit here. You always have a choice in life. I think it is a trip the way people complain about the choices that they themselves have made.