Listing Websites in Right Category

Hi all, Newbie member here.

Some of you may know of me from my username. Anyway, I've not complained about the DMOZ directory at all, in my forums or elsewhere. I'm probably one of your biggest fans.

That said; This is disturbing:

http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/...t/Promotion/Search_Engine_Optimization_Firms/

That's the main category for SEO firms. I think many of you can see what I mean.

First off; Why is www.seopros.org not included in this main category for SEO firms? I've nothing to do with the org. My firm is "not" listed in it either......yet. I'm truly wondering why your directory lists some sites in that main category that are listed, but fails to list seopros.org in the SEO firms category anywhere?

It's buried in a category where someone searching for a "good" firm would never search in.... the "ethics" category. If anything, that site should be in "two" categories. In the SEO firms cat, and also in the "ethics" category.

I don't understand how you can put spammers, and orgs that allow spammers as members, in the very main Category for SEO firms? Do you condone spamming the search engines?

As you can see, I'm just a little upset with this. If any directory has the respect of most internet users, it's the DMOZ. You have authority. I've always been a HUGE fan of you, as many already know this, but I'm truly ticked about this in a big way.

Some of you know, my main mission in life is to rid the internet of search engine spam. If a directory like the DMOZ is going to list the biggest spammers on the planet in the SEO firms category, then they certainly ought to list a website who "screens" SEO firms to try and protect the public from search engine spammers. If any website should have two listings in DMOZ, it's seopros.org. If only one listing, then it should be the SEO firms category as that is the cat anyone looking for a SEO would look in first.

My two cents.

Please take this post in the spirit it's intended. You know I would not be wasting my time if I did not feel that this issue was important.

I just found out about this today in my "private forums" area. I'm truly not pleased.

Thank you.

Doug Heil
ihelpyou, Inc.

First off; Why is www.seopros.org not included in this main category for SEO firms? I've nothing to do with the org. My firm is "not" listed in it either......yet. I'm truly wondering why your directory lists some sites in that main category that are listed, but fails to list seopros.org in the SEO firms category anywhere?

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Maybe because they aren't an SEO firm? And while they have a directory, that isn't the sole purpose of the site. Just my .

I think the point is that the same thing can be said about SEMPO, but they're listed under SEO firms. So is SEO Consultants, which is very similar in both structure and purpose to SeoPros.

You are correct Motsa, they are not a SEO firm. So why is seoconsultants, seolist, sempo, and fantomaster all the sudden SEO firms? They are listed under SEO firms.

You and I both know that when a website owner goes to searching for a SEO firm to help them, they will look under, erm, SEO firms. Under the main category is listed just a tiny few websites.

fantomeister.com
seoconsultants.com
seolist.com
topseos.com

Those 4 are listed. In other words, those 4 sites are the sites first seen by anyone drilling down to look. How and why are they listed? None of them are "seo firms", right? Not only that, but why would the DMOZ "want" those firms listed and seen by people? Well, seoconsultants screens SEO firms also, so they deserve to be there. The rest of them? No way.

Point being, if you are going to place seopros.org in "any" category at all, it should be in a cat where people actually are looking for a SEO firm, right? Aferall; That organization works harder than anyone I know to screen and "protect the public" from any and all search engine spammers.

Check sempo and seolist for spammers as members. Do you see spammers as members? Yes you do.

The 4 sites that you mention here may be placed incorrectly (I'm looking into it), but that doesn't mean that seopros.org should be placed in the incorrect category on purpose seopros.org is not an SEO firm so it is included in the most appropriate category for the service that they offer.

As to the ODP listing known spammers, it really isn't part of our mandate to be the internet police. Someone may be a known spammer within the SEO communinity (aren't they all ), but as far as we're concerned, if the site meets our guidelines we're probably going to list it.

Some decisions are finelines. Sometimes a site can fit into more than one category and the decision as to which is taken on factors which may not be immediately obvious.

Do we list directories with spammers in it? Sure, why not, we aren't in the business of judging each entry on the site, only the content quality of the site as a whole. Half the people who submit to us do so a dozen times to a dozen different categories, spammers, we will still list their site once in the right place. Assuming it is listable.

Meta editors have seen this thread and if anything is amiss they will correct it. [ooops, Donald is already there] Otherwise they will have confirmed the situation is OK by not doing anything. If you can't see the reasoning then it is likely to be down to subtleties of emphasis, a fine balance tipped 51-49 in one case, 49-51 in another.

Yuck, yuck, yuck. Don't ask me to look in that area ever again. Now I remember why I stopped editing in the WDaD categories. I think that whole Promotions section needs a total overhaul, but it's such a daunting task that I can't imagine that any sane editor would be willing to even think about taking that on

I've moved some things around to what I feel are more appropriate categories. It's hard to categorize some of those sites, so you can't blame an editor for trying their best to place those very confusing web sites in what would appear to be an appropriate category. SEO people are probably the worst for submitting their sites to multiple categories so it's sometimes tough for an editor to figure out where a site should be listed - I'm still not sure that they are appropriately listed.

I'm not an editor, but I think some of those sites do belong in http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/...t/Promotion/Search_Engine_Optimization_Firms/

SEO Consultants has a lot of information beyond its directory of SEO firms, but I imagine that's where most of its traffic goes. My point is that SeoPros is very similar to SEO Consultants. Wherever one of them ends up, it makes sense to me that the other should be there as well.

The 4 sites that you mention here may be placed incorrectly (I'm looking into it), but that doesn't mean that seopros.org should be placed in the incorrect category on purpose seopros.org is not an SEO firm so it is included in the most appropriate category for the service that they offer.

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Thanks Donald. That would be very good.

Actually though, seoconsultants.com and seopros.org are the only two sites I see in the whole "SEO Firms" category that "would" deserve to be in two categories, including SEO Firms. It makes lots of sense to me to want "your" DMOZ visitors to find the good SEO Firms. The good ones are listed in those two directories. They both should be in two cats. I agree with Bob, whatever cat you choose for one of them, fits for the other as well.

The other sites listed "at the top" of the SEO Firm category should not be there at all. Or, they should be buried somewhere deep and out of sight.

Hi oneeye;

Do we list directories with spammers in it? Sure, why not, we aren't in the business of judging each entry on the site, only the content quality of the site as a whole.

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Yes, I knew the DMOZ listed any site regardless of being a spammer or not.

But you know; Maybe if the DMOZ stepped up to the plate and started ousting sites who blatantly spammed, the internet would be a cleaner place to live? At least you all could help those of us who have that ultimate mission. The problem is, no one wants to take on the responsibility. It's easier to turn the other cheek.

It's easier to turn the other cheek.

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In the ODP's case, I think it is more that it is too hard to define "spamming" in such a way that it is not an opinion or that it doesn't rely on information beyond what is present on a website. Having a guidelines along the lines of "don't list spammers" would simply open the directory up to even more abuse, as editors might feel justified in deleting websites they don't like for one reason or another.

Yuck, yuck, yuck.

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Exactly what I thought when I glanced at the category.

If anything, that site should be in "two" categories. In the SEO firms cat, and also in the "ethics" category.

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BTW - it used to be in both, but one got deleted as being an extra listing. Due to the nature of the WD&D area of Computers in particular, I think the editors really try to enforce the "find the one best category" guideline to prevent inappropriate multiple listings. This does sometimes result in imperfect organization if the best category doesn't exist or a site happens to get listed in the second best one first.

I think that whole Promotions section needs a total overhaul, but it's such a daunting task that I can't imagine that any sane editor would be willing to even think about taking that on

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However, if someone wanted to do a thorough scrub on all of the existing listings and suggest corrections in placement or new categories for any misplaced sites, I'm sure it would be looked into. It is a lot easier for an editor to review someones else's comments on 2000+ sites (which would maybe be 10% or 200 of them) than to commit to going through all 2000 themselves.

Wanna project?

Nice post lissa!

Not me. I would probably proceed to "de-list" half the firms in the SEO firms cat because they were spammers. Not my definition, but according to the actual Google guidelines on their website. Many things done are outright spam by anyone's definition.

It does amaze me that a few obvious spammers, who state how proud they are at being spammers, get "more than one category", and other firms "who are good" only get one category. I've noticed this time and time again. I wonder why this could be?

Overall; I've always touted the editors of DMOZ as I know you all work real hard. ... the one's who do the majority of listings and edits anyway. Afterall; it's a voluntary system. What could webmasters expect for free anyhoo?

I understand your feelings -- but one of the issues is that we don't judge the company. We judge the website. If they offer spamming services, we list them.

which doesn't mean _I_ have to get muck all over my fingers....

which tends to mean the category doesn't get tender loving care.

I think also there may be a little confusion about the concept of taxonomy. Sites listed "at the top" aren't there because they are somehow better or more important or something. They're there because they don't fit more specifically into a subcategory.

(Remember that classic from school, The Animal Kingdom? One doesn't say "Humans with their toolmaking and verbal skills are the most influential animal, so I'll list them at the top". One classifies vertebrate, mammal, etc.)

Right, but the logic behind listing some of those sites above the A-Z pages was that they include directories containing numerous firms.

qwerty said:

Right, but the logic behind listing some of those sites above the A-Z pages was that they include directories containing numerous firms.

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Plus the fact that web sites often morph over time. Sites that may have been placed appropriately two years ago have since changed and need to be re-reviewed and moved to more appropriate categories. That's a nice thing to say, but unless an editor is looking specifically in that area, or unless someone brings it up here, no one is going to notice that some sites might have changed with time.

In this particular case, I did move those sites out of the SEO Firms category (except for one which was moved to a letter sub-cat).

Now don't make me go back in there - I can't take it!

It does amaze me that a few obvious spammers, who state how proud they are at being spammers, get "more than one category"

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If you know of specific cases, either report them in the thread here in the abuse forum or use the abuse-reporting form. There are many editors who are MORE than happy to track down improperly listed sites and delete them. However, be aware that sometimes multiple listings can be an indication of difficulty of site placement - sometimes there are several categories in fairly unrelated parts of the directory that could be appropriate and some areas are more interested in deeplinks (to create a focus on a topic) than others. Don't always assume that multiple listings is necessarily spam.

Wanna project?

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Not me.

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Maybe someone in your inner-crew at IHY would be interested? Or maybe it would be an interesting discussion thread? Pick an ODP category of interest to your readers (a small one!) and review the sites in it jointly - figure out what doesn't belong (and where it should be) and what should be added and develop good titles and descriptions (per ODP guidelines!) Personally, I think it would be an interesting discussion, probably get a lot of participants, and provide an opportunity for your "regulars" to comment on a variety of good and bad webmaster stuff. If you actually end up with a list of suggested changes for the editors to review - bonus! Drop us a note if you start a thread so we can follow along.

-Lissa