Minor Musings of a Miniscule Man

Guys (generic, non-gender-specific 'guys'),

Don't bite my head off. Just trying to add to the debate. There is a debate, right?

Been reading for a while and considered I may as well say what's on my mind.

Seems to me there are basically two sets of people:

• The "I have a site - what's happening" people :icon_ques
• Those who respond. :icon_excl

I understand why the whole status report thing went south. Kind of. People pestering, complaining, no editing getting done, no progress being made... people giving up their time to make the internet a better place to live being given grief by people, deadlines, why, why, why...

But I'm also seeing a general frustration by people who have "legitimate" websites, whose presence on the directory would be... well... valid. I'm not saying that anybody has a RIGHT to be listed, just that as far as I can see, the frustration comes from not knowing if the website has been rejected, or if it's just not been looked at yet.

We're clever people, right. Why can't we come up with some sort of a process whereby you have to login to submit a website, then, you can login and check the progress of that website. Nothing detailed. Something like traffic lights:

• Green: Site is live on DMOZ! Do NOT re-list unless you follow guidelines.
• Amber: Hang tight / waiting for edit.
• Red: Rejected. Please follow guidelines if you intend resubmission.

No recourse. No 'please give me comments on why', no 'how can I improve my submission'.

I don't think people would mind if their listing stayed on amber - it may even encourage people to become editors... and if a listing comes back rejected, then you know where you stand.

Just a suggestion. What do you think?

<awaits blasting />

Antlrz.

Please look through the threads here - there are tons of the same suggestion and the answer to the suggestion is still a valid one.

Antlers, I have (not once but twice) tried (as a theoretical experiment) to map out how such a thing would work, based on my knowledge of and experience of workflow on actual submittals. It is a great deal more complex than it looks from the outside. The workflow is, to say the least, maximally unstructured (there are potentially many steps, of many different kinds, that might happen to a submittal before terminal action is taken on it). There is information which could be potentially deduced from workflow, and of potential use to people trying to gain the system.

And assuming someone more clever and more knowledgeable than I could figure out a way to make this work ... still, so long as programming resources are a scarce commodity, the editors will want them prioritized on ways to make us more efficient.

I don't think people would mind if their listing stayed on amber

Click to expand...

It is on amber unless it is already listed.

the frustration comes from not knowing if the website has been rejected

Click to expand...

Time and again the best solution is suggest the site, improved the site and forget the submission made. This way frustration and stress has been eliminated. Get busy or do some work or have fun.

We're clever people, right. Why can't we come up with some sort of a process whereby you have to login to submit a website, then, you can login and check the progress of that website. Nothing detailed. Something like traffic lights:

Click to expand...

I like my steaks medium. The problem is whenever I go to a steak house I still need to order my steak and the waiters or waitresses still ask me about my order and how would I want my steak done.

The question is when will they ever invent an automated efficient method that would please me ?

From the outside, it does appear simple, green, amber, red.

From the inside, the ODP is from a certain point of view a complex psychological experiment on people, economics, sell-esteem, and many other things.

When I started out as an editor I used to get into dialogs about people about why their site was not acceptable. As many other editors have found out, this can quickly backfire.

People do not want to accept the rules, and the editors views, they tend to think their sites are wonderfull. They want to be placed in certain categories, and will lie and cheat to get what they want. If for example, a site owner wants to be listed in a major city [but in reality his business is in a suburb], he will put misinformation on the sites about his location. Editors are pretty smart and catch this kind of stuff. But we don't want to give out the info on how we do that. If we say, but we know you are not in that city because the picture of your building on the website, show something in the background that indicates you are not, then the site owner simply removes that picture. We'd rather he leave the evidence for the next editor.

If we happen to know that the site owner has submitted 165 different URLs pretending to be separate businesses (and I'm not making that number up, I've seen it) we don't want to give out the fact that we know that and how we know that.

If an editor happens to know that the site that pretends to be selling flowers from Romania, is actually running from someone's house in Toronto, because the editor drove down that street, the editor would just as soon not have the site owner know that he lives close by.

I've had site owners track down my home phone, and argue with me. It's not pleasant. I've also had death threats levelled at me. Some site owners are convinced that a listing in ODP will make or break their business - therefore an editor is the one that makes the difference between financial freedom and bankrupcy.

I'd rather just quietly delete the inappropraite sites, and leave the site owner in the dark.

Occassionly when I feel that a site is almost listable, I'll tell the site owner what to fix. But I do it from an anonymous email, in such a way that he has no idea who I am.

Thanks for the replies. They were very helpful.

A few very interesting bits:

There is information which could be potentially deduced from workflow, and of potential use to people trying to gain the system.

Click to expand...

(hutcheson)

People do not want to accept the rules, and the editors views, they tend to think their sites are wonderfull. They want to be placed in certain categories, and will lie and cheat to get what they want.

Click to expand...

(bobrat)

...I've also had death threats... I'd rather just quietly delete the inappropraite sites, and leave the site owner in the dark.

Click to expand...

(bobrat)

Death threats! Yikes!

So, are we therefore saying that it's less of "it can't be done" and more of a concern over the abuse that could take place if the process was opened up?

i.e. With zero information going out, there is no way of working out a way to compromise it.

I guess that makes sense, and I have no suggestion to offer up - I guess it's true that pretty much everybody has an agenda (me included, maybe), and that there are a quite a few people who will do whatever it takes to abuse the system to get ahead.

Some site owners are convinced that a listing in ODP will make or break their business - therefore an editor is the one that makes the difference between financial freedom and bankrupcy.

Click to expand...

(bobrat)

That's exactly it. I've seen it said in many places - list in DMOZ, get picked up by google, all your problems will be solved. Of course it's rubbish - as people have said, you're better off taking the time to write regular, relevant content for your website.

But it's also true that a listing will make a difference. It will, to a greater or lesser extent increase the traffic to your website, and that could mean money. Cold, hard, cash.

And people are messed up about money. :money:

Thanks for your time,

Antlrz.

PS monayuki, that steak thing... I'm confused! I'm afraid the analogy totally passed me by...

PS monayuki, that steak thing... I'm confused! I'm afraid the analogy totally passed me by...

Click to expand...

Aaahh another one. Progress and system invention for workflow and of potential use to people trying to gain the system which you kindly compared it to traffic lights to be more efficient.

I am also looking for the same progress and system innovation that I would just sit back, relax and enjoy my steak without too much people asking me over and over again about my order which they already know the answer if its rare, medium or well done.

For commercial sites -

If a site is successful, then I think a DMOZ listing may raise the success a few points, bring in a few extra sales, etc.

If a site is unsucessfull and not "on the map" it will not help at all.