Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necessary?

Thank you so much for listing my site some time ago. We are launching stationery this year, in addition to our address labels. I could use some help with this, if possible, I have read up on the subject and can't find a definitive answer.

1. Is it permissable to have two listings, under both "stationery" and "labels?"
2. Is it beneficial to be in two, if allowed?
3. Do I need to be in yet another category - see examples below?
4. I'd like to edit my description, and I have read how to do that, but wanted to ask about getting moved or doubled up first.

Regarding other categories. On Google, the search term "address labels" now brings up the business category, instead of shopping. At the top of the page results it reads:

Category: Business > Industries > Printing > Labels

But, after two business listings in that category, there are a mixture of different listings, categorized as follows:

Category: Shopping > Gifts > Personalized > Stationery
Category: Regional > Europe > ... > Industries > Printing

The rest of the listings don't show the categories under their descriptions. It's so confusing, and we are located somewhere past the 20th page in that "address labels" search, but, we are on the 1st page of results for the search term "personalized address labels." So, I'm not sure if it's our site or something to do with the category placement. We custom print personalized address and other labels, and will be printing stationery and notepads.

Thank you for your time, Happy New Year. Help!
Megan

www.mabelbean.com
Mabel Bean & Company

Re: Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necess

OK, first of all, and most important of all, we dunno what Google does, and when we're deciding what to do with the directory, we dinnae care either. They, and many other clever users, do things with our directory: we think that's good, but first and foremost and finally, we're building our concept of a good directory.

It is NOT good (from the only standpoint that matters to us, which is our users) for retailers to have a separate listing for each one of their product lines. We'd have 50,000 Walmart.com submittals, 200,000 amazon.com submittals, and no time to list the little sites with only one or two products -- i.e. you would be completely out in the cold, buried by the big companies. That would not be good for our users: it might not be good for the "little guy" companies. So we have a guideline: individual product lines are not listed. That's good for us, good for our users, and it saves you time by being very clear about what you should NOT expect (i.e. two listings).

If you have a location where your printer is physically plugged in, and deal with walkin customers, it would be good (for our users and for us) if your site were listed in the Business&Economy of that Regional locality. (This is beyond the Regional/Europe listing: and it might be good for you also, if we were the sort of people who cared about that, which we aren't. But, knowing it would be good for you, we tell people about it, in hopes that they will help us get the locality identified for their sites.)

You can check out the Google forums at the various Webmaster (i.e. SERP perp) forum sites, where people who care about these questions hang out. I follow some of those forums, but do not remember any discussions about Google DIRECTORY SEARCH, though: it doesn't seem to be widely used (a pity; for many searches it is probably better than anything else on the web. Probably nobody outside of Google knows much.)

What you probably should do is ask to have your description changed to mention your other product.

Re: Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necess

Thank you so much for your reply, I will do just as you say and edit my description to include the stationery when it is added to the site.

I can certainly understand that listing each product line would cause insanity. My problem stemmed from the term "stationery," but I figure it could include labels, whereas labels are just labels. Labels are such a huge focus of our business, and with there being a separate category for them, I have been confused about what to do. In addition to my change of description, may I/should I then also request to be moved to stationery instead of labels? I guess it better fits our business in it's totality now, if I had to chose one category.

We don't accept customers in our office, so I guess we wouldn't list regionally but I certainly appreciate the thought.

My Google category questions were based on my thought that since they used your directory, the categories were yours too. I didn't know the Google directory categories were different! So, that's why I asked. When I worked at the Lancome cosmetics counter at Macy's, there was nothing I hated more than customers asking me about Estee Lauder stuff...how the hell would I know??? (grin) So, I do apologize for my misconception on that...what a long, droning question that had nothing to do with you folks! Sorry!

You have answered my questions (and so many other's, I've been reading and reading) so thoroughly, and I can't believe how much time you give to people...what a precious commodity you offer at no charge. I'd like to return the favor when my work load eases up in a few months; I am seriously considering applying to be an editor. My retired mechanical engineering professor father might be interested now though, I'll have to suggest it to him. Perhaps there is an area in need of his particular knowledge.

I guess all I need is your advice on whether we should move to the stationery category when we add those products and are ready to change our description. Thank you again so much, and, if it's possible, please thank the editor who listed us - our site was added without problems or delay. (Usually if there is a problem to be had, we have it!)

Megan

Re: Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necess

>may I/should I then also request to be moved to stationery instead of labels?

That is a reasonable request; the editor would, I think, consider it on its merits.


>My Google category questions were based on my thought that since they used your directory, the categories were yours too.

That much is true--they do pick up our categories and our listings. And so, for the most part, you can browse the Google directory just like the ODP directory. But Google's SEARCH DIRECTORY functionality has, however, nothing whatever to do with the DMOZ site search -- it is a filtered version of Google's SEARCH WEB technology, apparently (that is, it appears to me, on very little evidence) indexing words from the pages themselves, whereas ODP site search is a public-domain indexing package, and only words from the ODP categories and site listings are indexed -- nothing at all from the sites themselves. So you get two completely different views.

As to the rest--yes, you comprehend our feelings exactly. We really are proud of Google's use of the ODP, but ... we know we really ought not to claim to understand it, either.

Re: Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necess

Forgive my ignorance, and for going off-topic, but is ODP then a competitor in some ways to Google? That, you are adding sites with merit to the directory, one by one, based on content and benefit to readers/consumers, by real humans...whereas Google takes your directory and uses mechanical means to sort through it. You know, come to think of it, if a person follows the ODP directory chain, they can have a good assortment of sites, that have been screened by human beings...which eliminates the spam sites. It's basically the difference between working a little harder at a search of good stuff, versus an "automated" search of utter crap. Okay, so why are we using Google??? Am I right in my grasp of this?

You know, it's really scary when you think about it. I see more and more "nothing" sites these days, that are nothing but directories with Google ads on them, and completely fake sites that use spam links, etc. People who are creating those sites, have a sole focus of making money that way, and without a product to create and/or sell, they can devote a lot of time to it, unlike real businesses out there that can only give a small portion of their time to search optimization. If this keeps up, and the junk causes people give up on the internet because they can't find what they want, many businesses that depend on the internet will suffer terrible losses. It's like eBay. It used to be such a great place to find unique things, and now, it has been overtaken with junk that people can buy anywhere, from MLM programs on tv. It seems the ODP way is the only real way to preserve the integrity of the internet, and provide quality content. I've learned a lot.

I shall ask to be moved to stationery when we add the new products, I feel good about this - thank you for helping me.
Megan

Re: Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necess

No, in fact there is no "competition". We generate directory data so others can use it. In fact we don't even encourage people to browse dmoz.org directly - we could never handle it if all the people browsing directory.google.com would choose to switch to dmoz.org.

And in fact Google gives us credit on every single page of ther directory, so it is as good for publicity as our own servers - only a lot faster than those.

Why use a search engine like Google? Because a search engine will be more current than a directory. Because you can find content that is burried deep in sites that have completely different topics. Because searching it is much faster than browsing if you are looking for a specific site.

Why use a directory? If you are looking for a set of sites dealing with a specific topic, a directory is the way to go. I wanted to buy a special type of jeans of a special brand lately, so I went to the proper online-shops category and it was quite easy to find a shop that offered this product for a cheap price. Before I looked in DMOZ I started a search and was unable to locate any dealer located in germany selling that specific brand within a reasonable time.

Re: Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necess

I'd like to return the favor when my work load eases up in a few months; I am seriously considering applying to be an editor.

Click to expand...

Our favorite kind of "payment". I do hope you join - you seem to grasp the underlying concept already. If you, or your father, apply to become an editor, a good place to start is something like a hobby or your hometown. There are tons of categories that could use the skills of someone with a Mech Eng background, but IMO they are easier to deal with after gaining a little experience in a more easily organized area.

I didn't know the Google directory categories were different!

Click to expand...

Google categories are different in three ways. First, they display the sites in order of Google's calculation of pagerank. In theory, the best sites in each category should be at the top. Second, they display @linked categories as real categories, calculate counts differently, and don't use the category sort order. This isn't really significant, but it does make the categories look different. Third, they are using old data. The ODP makes a new data file for download each week, but Google updates their database on their own schedule - it used to be monthly, but last year was only twice.

Google and ODP (search engines and directories) aren't in competition, they offer complemetary services. Search engines catalog the contents of each web page. Directories classify entire websites. A search engine is good to find a specific piece of information or to figure out the types of sites that exist on a particular topic. A directory is good to find a series of sites all on the same topic, so they can be reviewed and compared.

Re: Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necess

Thank you for your explanation, it brings a little more clarity, and more cloudiness at the same time! The purpose of ODP then is to have a directory of sites that have made the "grade" so to speak, after humans have placed them, a totally separate entity from any search engine. What is the point of having a directory though, if people aren't meant to use it, after you've hand-chosen all the listings? That would only make sense if Google ONLY provided search results from your directory. Then there would be a human sorting process before they started with their filters. But, sites can be found on Google without being in the directory, so they mix both the nicely sorted directory you provide, and their own search engine to find ANYTHING on the web. What is the purpose of being in the DMOZ directory then, if it isn't also for customers/readers to find sites by searching directly through DMOZ?

I understand what you said about not all sites are in the directory because it is created by hand, and Google gets to them quicker. The directory isn't as current, I understand, merely because machines are being used rather than volunteer manpower. And, if you want an actual search because you aren't sure of what you want, you use a SEARCH ENGINE, and engine in literal terms, to do the dirty work for you.

Okay, now you've done it. I'm actually even more confused then about the whole purpose of the directory now! (grin)

-----------------------
Back on topic, I found two listings that are puzzling me, and fueling my concern about being placed in more than one category.

When I searched DMOZ I found:

Personalized Address Labels by Noelle - Suppliers of personalized address, return and book labels using your own photographs including stock labels with sports, holiday, patriotic and nature themes. Product details and information. Portfolio and contacts.
-- http://www.designsbynoelle.com/ Business: Publishing and Printing: Printing: Products: Labels, Stickers, and Decals

and

Address Labels 4U - Personalized return address labels in many colorful designs, including labels with customer's own photo. Also self-inking rubber stamps. Worldwide service.
-- http://www.addresslabels4u.com Business: Publishing and Printing: Printing: Products: Labels, Stickers, and Decals


I just found a description of the business category they are in:

If you are a stationery printer, manufacturer or wholesaler or do not sell to customers directly online please submit your site to Business: Industries: Printing: Stationery.
(I couldn't find that one, it may have been revamped.) And then further, it says:
Sites generally not listed in the Business category...
Online shopping: Sites that exist primarily to sell goods and services directly to the consumer should be listed in the Shopping category. See the Shopping category description for more detail.


Both of those companies seem misplaced then, unless it is permissable to have both. Both can be found in this category also...
Shopping: Gifts: Personalized: Stationery: Labels

There may be others, but I recognized these two companies. I was confused at first because I thought we should be in the business category as well then, because we print our own stationery/labels, and we work with businesses to provide them with product labels, not always the general public. But, our primary focus is sales to the public, as is the case with those two companies. I guess I need more help and clarification.

Thank you so much,
Megan

Re: Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necess

Lissa, you snuck this in while I was replying to windharp! It makes a lot of sense now...by George, I think I've got it! I can't get over how dedicated you all are...this is a great resource. I'm going to link to you from my site, which won't do much, but that and my father and I helping, would be a small thank-you. I might be able to get my husband involved, if there is a video game category as a hobby that would need him!

I'm going to email my father about this today, and copy what you suggested. Starting out small seems like a good idea.

Thank you!
Megan

Re: Moving, and are 2 categories allowed or necess

There are lots of video game categories

Re: video games

There are lots and lots of video games...

http://www.dmoz.org/Games/Video_Games/