New Forum Member / organix

[organix]

Hello everyone and thanks to all of you at DMOZ.

I have a question. To prevent site access outside of our service area (North America) and to prevent our content and branding from being indexed by bots that we consider non-compliant, we have taken steps to block entire IP ranges.

Even though all membership information has been thoroughly protected and the members have been shielded from spammers, this also assists us in protecting our publicly accessible e-mail addresses that have been sprinkled throughout the site.

My question is this: does blocking foreign access have any negative repercussions with respect to the way in which DMOZ handles an indexing request by a site owner?

The reason I ask is that in my humble opinion (and contrary to popular belief) the internet is not an open book. People outside of our service area have no need to visit our site and have no need to become members. Do any of you find this approach objectionable?

Thanks in advance,
organix.

 

[jimnoble]

What do you think editors do when the site they're trying to evaluate is unavailable?

 

[spectregunner]

Jim's question is to the point: ours is an international editing community, and the editor who visits your site may be in Pittsburgh, Paris (TX or France) or in Pakistan.

 

[bobrat]

...prevent .......... being indexed by bots that we consider non-compliant

If I decide to write non-compliant bot, I'm going to fake the IP address anyway, so your technique only keeps away casual browsers and ODP editors.

 

[organix]

That's my point Jim. There have been very few structural allowances for these types of access control mechanisms.

For example, why would an owner of a reputable site want to have their pages indexed and framed by another site that serves up pages from the other side of the globe, with the sole purpose of using that content to attract clicks for their own services.

Why would the website of a salon in Indiana need to be globally accessible when it's purpose is to serve local and regional clients only ?

Why would a business owner, who uses their website as a part of their regional marketing strategy need to provide international access to their website ?

We both know where the two hot-spot sources of spam are in the world. So why would a site owner want to expose themselves to this type of abuse when it is 99% avoidable ?

This is my point. I would hazard to guess that in many many instances there is absolutely zero return on the dollar by making their site globally accessible. At the same time, I would hazard to guess that in many many instances this is counterproductive to their organization's efficiency and performance.

Leaving the site of a regional business, which does not perform or provide services at the international level, open to global access simply does not make sense.

From a business point of view,
organix.

 

[organix]

No bobrat.

Non-compliancy is a completely different issue and it too has been dealt with at our site. We call it botzap.

organix.

 

[nea]

You do realise that those concerns are yours only? You make whatever decisions seem reasonably for your site, from a business point of view. That point of view is by definition not ours. We explicitily are not concerned with the web master, the return of his [insert mode of payment of choice] or his need to have the site listed or not listed; that's in our social contract ( http://dmoz.org/socialcontract.html ).

So I don't really know what kind of reaction you expect to that last posting of yours.

[edited to add: make that "second-to-last posting of yours", cos I type too slowly.]

 

[organix]

That's my point spectre. The "open book" concept, and web design and web access based on that paradigm, will eventually do more harm to a regional business than can be provided in value returned.

So why leave it globally accessible ?

organix.

 

[organix]

Nea, I am just trying to point out that as people begin to realize that they are creating an organizational expense by providing global access that they will reconsider how, and to whom, they make their sites available.

Don't you see how their "awakening" will create a strain and conflict between their own business interests and the DMOZ contract?

...so the content and taxonomy will be widely used and distributed...

Site owners who provide global access when they don't need to provide global access incur additional operating expenses, just by being globally accessible.

I'm not being critical of your efforts: they are valiant. I am only pointing out an inherent conflict of interest.

organix.

 

[organix]

...and no. these are not "just my concerns".

Most people haven't realised this for themselves...yet.

organix.

 

[jimnoble]

Incidentally, are you aware that http://www.beautybyus.com is already appropriately listed in Bath, Ontario? You presumably wouldn't want it to be additionally listed in a Topical category where it might have to rub shoulders with sites from other parts of the world .

 

[pvgool]

If I as an ODP editor were to review your site it would most probably be deleted.
Why. I live in Europe.
A 403 error. Ok. I remove it from the public directory and put it in a special queue to review again in a few weeks. A few weeks later. Still 403. Delete.
Do you see your problem?

 

[organix]

Please. This has nothing to do with our site. I dont care where it's listed because we ultimately have the last say as to who does and who does not have access.

I am speaking of general internet organization and indexing, and about how the realisation among the business community and the webmaster community with respect to the costs associated with global internet access is inherently against their self interest.

These implications go to the heart of DMOZ and straight to the bottom line of all non international companies. I wasn't sure if DMOZ had taken this into consideration in their indexing and division of labor. Obviously DMOZ has not.

This is not to say that DMOZ is bad or good. I am only trying to point out the antagonism associated between, on the one hand, trying to obtain the widest possible reach on the internet, and on the other hand, how that wide reaching dispersal of information will always be in conflict with a regional operating company's self interest.

organix.

 

[organix]

Yes I do see the problem pvgool. And it goes back to the question that I was asking originally : is there a division of labor within DMOZ. Obviously there isn't.

But I must go on and ask myself this : do the costs associated with providing global access outweigh the possible benefits of providing global access ?

My answer is yes. Those costs can never be recuperated. This applies to every non international business with a web presence.

organix.

 

[motsa]

Site owners who provide global access when they don't need to provide global access incur additional operating expenses, just by being globally accessible.

How's that? Unless you're paying extra for each GB of bandwidth you use (in which case, you need better hosting), global access should incur zero extra expenses and, in fact, could generate additional income.

I personally think it's a paranoid and, to be honest, silly thing for most business owners to be concerned about. There *are* situations where limiting access by IP location could be useful and appropriate but those are rare.

 

[motsa]

I have to ask -- what is your point in posting here? You've already been told what the possible repercussions could be to your site from an ODP point of view. Discussion of the pros and cons of blocking IP ranges is really beyond the scope of this forum since it has nothing at all (beyond what has already been said) to do with the ODP. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of your site design choice, please feel free to visit a webmaster/SEO forum to discuss it with your fellow site owners.

 

[organix]

Spam would be a good place to start.

http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/ntrs/

...if they don't have access
...they can't get as many e-mail addresses
...they can't send their spam

organix.

 

[bobrat]

As motsa says, that's really nothing to do with this forum. A web design or SEO forum is a better place for your discussion.

As stated previously, if the site is viewable by an editor it is open to be reviewed. If you block the editor's IP address, the site will be considered to be non-functional.

 

[pvgool]

Please reread the post from Motsa.
This forum is only to discuss subjects related to DMOZ.

 

[organix]

My reason for posting is to bring to your attention that not everyone is a Nike or a Coca Cola Corp. Hopefully, ODP will recognize that this applies equally to every non international company with aspirations for their web site.

These people, while congratulating themselves and patting each other on the back at the launch of their new site, in many cases are exposing themselves almost immediately to incuring costs that could equal or exceed any benefits.

Dare I say ODP, by forcing these people to comply with the need for global access, does them more harm than good.

organix.