Hello! We have been trying for two years to get in the DMOZ directory without any success. I was told that my industry: promotional items was labeled to have affiliate sites since a high majority of the sites had links to databases of products that are shamed in the industry. We are not affiliated, we are competitors trying to earn business on the web. But if you take a look at our industry, the ONLY way to provide a wealth of knowledge (products) to our clients is to use an industry product database. It is the only way small to medium size companies can do it. A large company can spend thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars in developing a database of products but it isn't possible for us small pocket companies. Studies have been done on our industry by associations and they have found out that the end user wants to be able to access a web site on the web, find a vast selection of products and prices and it all done quickly. There really is only one way to do that if you are a small company and that is to purchase an annual contract of a industry database of products. We have had a database linked to our site for two years and have never been able to get submitted into the DMOZ directory. We would be greatful if we could get in. Please let us know how we can get this accomplished, PLEASE;-)
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I'm Sorry! It is www.promotional-items-forless.com .
The fundamental questions editors should ask of a site are "does this site provide unique content? is it relevant to this category?"
An "affiliate site" label is really not so much a description of the site's business model (which we officially Don't Care About) but the editor's judgment that "aside from someone else's list of products (which could better be gotten from that someone else's website) this site has nothing unique, and is therefore not worth listing; the kind of "nothing unique worth listing" it is, seems to look most like sites that are set up to promote affiliate sales."
Granted that your business model may have been misrepresented, you didn't say anything that suggested the editor's judgment (as elaborated herein) was incorrect.
An "affiliate site" label is really not so much a description of the site's business model (which we officially Don't Care About) but the editor's judgment that "aside from someone else's list of products (which could better be gotten from that someone else's website) this site has nothing unique, and is therefore not worth listing; the kind of "nothing unique worth listing" it is, seems to look most like sites that are set up to promote affiliate sales."
Granted that your business model may have been misrepresented, you didn't say anything that suggested the editor's judgment (as elaborated herein) was incorrect.
>> But if you take a look at our industry, the ONLY way to provide a wealth of knowledge (products) to our clients is to use an industry product database. <<
How unfortunate, because the only way to get listed in the ODP is to *not* use an industry product database.
>> Studies have been done on our industry by associations and they have found out that the end user wants to be able to access a web site on the web, find a vast selection of products and prices and it all done quickly. <<
The problem here is that the ODP is not responsible for your marketing activities, that's your job. We have our rules and we have to stick to them. We can't allow exceptions for specific industries as that would cause chaos. I'm sorry that you feel you have to use a big industry standard database to make your website popular, because that means we won't be able to list you. Contrary to what you may hear, we do like to be able to list websites, but only those that fit into our guidlines for listing.
How unfortunate, because the only way to get listed in the ODP is to *not* use an industry product database.
>> Studies have been done on our industry by associations and they have found out that the end user wants to be able to access a web site on the web, find a vast selection of products and prices and it all done quickly. <<
The problem here is that the ODP is not responsible for your marketing activities, that's your job. We have our rules and we have to stick to them. We can't allow exceptions for specific industries as that would cause chaos. I'm sorry that you feel you have to use a big industry standard database to make your website popular, because that means we won't be able to list you. Contrary to what you may hear, we do like to be able to list websites, but only those that fit into our guidlines for listing.
I'm beside myself to read such a statement. If you look at every web site in DMOZ under this category, you will find that 95% of them don't have the appeal that this one site has and not to mention that the clients to this site have for over two years say that no one come close to the prices of this site. Those two things right there make it unique. I can't believe nor understand why anyone would turn this site down. It is obvious that some people don't understand the way the promotional items industry is run. We must provide our visitors with the knowledge of the available products and their prices. We do that and better that most. Why can't DMOZ see that and understand that. This continues to be unfair.
<<<you didn't say anything that suggested the editor's judgment (as elaborated herein) was incorrect. >>>
What are you looking for from us? You say unique content, what qualifies for that? What can we do to satisfy DMOZ? We are willing and able but most know what you are looking for, PLEASE??? Thank you!
What are you looking for from us? You say unique content, what qualifies for that? What can we do to satisfy DMOZ? We are willing and able but most know what you are looking for, PLEASE??? Thank you!
>> It is obvious that some people don't understand the way the promotional items industry is run. <<
It's obvious that you don't understand the way the ODP is run, or what it's purpose is. We are *not* here to provide a convenient platform for companies' marketing, nor are we here to list every single URL in existence. We are here to provide our users with links to all the useful information we can find. Listing every single business that sells multicoloured keyrings is not useful, so we don't do it. Instead we list the manufacturer of those same keyrings so that our users can get one from there if they wish to.
I know you're not going to like that, but that's the way it is.
It's obvious that you don't understand the way the ODP is run, or what it's purpose is. We are *not* here to provide a convenient platform for companies' marketing, nor are we here to list every single URL in existence. We are here to provide our users with links to all the useful information we can find. Listing every single business that sells multicoloured keyrings is not useful, so we don't do it. Instead we list the manufacturer of those same keyrings so that our users can get one from there if they wish to.
I know you're not going to like that, but that's the way it is.
What does DMOZ consider unique content? Our industry sells all the same products. Just like Ford dealerships sell all the same vehicles. What it boils down to is who has the best price and availability. That is unique content! That is standard make-up of the marketplace of the world.
You say not replicated from another site. Well, what about all the other industries that sell the same products (i.e. Fod cars, etc.) If we create our on database of the same products but shown in a different way is that unique?
Shouldn't your rules and regulations apply to everyone? There are ALOT of sites in our category as well as others that work from a industry product database. Why is there a double standard? If DMOZ is going to require that then, it is only fair that "ALL" editors enforce it. Why is that???????
If "ALL" the editors don't live or enforce these rules then, there are no rules just volunteer editors that are given the full rein of power to hand pick who gets in or not. That is a corrupt!
T
tac2502
I've been round and round on this topic as well. My opinion regarding site "standards" isn't printable here, but I've done my best to understand it, flawed though I think it is.
So there are 100 sites offering a similar product. Maybe it's Orange Hand Goo, maybe it's customized promotional items. And the editor in charge of the category you want is sticking by the mantra "In the end, there can only be one." and isn't going to let you in.
Unless you have something unique. So what's unique? If you're an Orange Hand Goo site, maybe you start handling all sorts of cleaning products from multiple vendors, and offer unique combinations of products. Of course, 45 other sites will likely copy you in 2 months...
That's the hard part about doing business on the web - the Unique Selling Proposition is so easily copied. It doesn't matter if you spent $200,000 designing a great web site, if the products and pricing are substantially the same as the Johnny-come-lately site, you just can't stand out. And ODP won't list you.
So what is something unique that no-one can copy? Given the basic law of physics that no two objects can occupy the same space at any given time, physical location can truly be defined as unique. A real brick and mortar storefront is a differentiator. Unless your competitor is greeting customers at the same address you are (no PO or Mailboxes etc addresses), you are unique. The ODP even has a whole hierarchy for location based placement. Granted, it isn't as glamorous to be listed under
"US/Ohio/Cincinnati/Rancid_Township/Industrial_Supplies/Cleaning_Products", but at least it is a listing that no-one can copy. Unless of course Cincinnati is the cleaning products capital of the world. But even then, your address is still unique.
This still poses a problem for the ODP editors however, since proving that someone has a real storefront as opposed to a simple shipping address is difficult to do remotely. Obviously, addresses that include a PO box or MailboxesEtc. address are out of the running. I would argue that sites qualifying for location based listings must be supported by prominant reference to a physical address with store hours, or the served community for service-oriented companies (like a handyman or trucking company). Yes, it's a gray area, but it's at least a bit less gray than many of the other areas at OPD.
That's my two cents. Them thar are Euro cents though, so they're worth a bit more than the American ones these days...
TAC
So there are 100 sites offering a similar product. Maybe it's Orange Hand Goo, maybe it's customized promotional items. And the editor in charge of the category you want is sticking by the mantra "In the end, there can only be one." and isn't going to let you in.
Unless you have something unique. So what's unique? If you're an Orange Hand Goo site, maybe you start handling all sorts of cleaning products from multiple vendors, and offer unique combinations of products. Of course, 45 other sites will likely copy you in 2 months...
That's the hard part about doing business on the web - the Unique Selling Proposition is so easily copied. It doesn't matter if you spent $200,000 designing a great web site, if the products and pricing are substantially the same as the Johnny-come-lately site, you just can't stand out. And ODP won't list you.
So what is something unique that no-one can copy? Given the basic law of physics that no two objects can occupy the same space at any given time, physical location can truly be defined as unique. A real brick and mortar storefront is a differentiator. Unless your competitor is greeting customers at the same address you are (no PO or Mailboxes etc addresses), you are unique. The ODP even has a whole hierarchy for location based placement. Granted, it isn't as glamorous to be listed under
"US/Ohio/Cincinnati/Rancid_Township/Industrial_Supplies/Cleaning_Products", but at least it is a listing that no-one can copy. Unless of course Cincinnati is the cleaning products capital of the world. But even then, your address is still unique.
This still poses a problem for the ODP editors however, since proving that someone has a real storefront as opposed to a simple shipping address is difficult to do remotely. Obviously, addresses that include a PO box or MailboxesEtc. address are out of the running. I would argue that sites qualifying for location based listings must be supported by prominant reference to a physical address with store hours, or the served community for service-oriented companies (like a handyman or trucking company). Yes, it's a gray area, but it's at least a bit less gray than many of the other areas at OPD.
That's my two cents. Them thar are Euro cents though, so they're worth a bit more than the American ones these days...
TAC
>> This still poses a problem for the ODP editors however, since proving that someone has a real storefront as opposed to a simple shipping address is difficult to do remotely. <<
If the site has the details of opening hours, telephone number, physical address, and a few images of the inside and outside of the shop, then it is fairly easy to verify that it does or does not exist, from business directories, municipal records, the phone book, or just by asking an editor to drive by and take a look. ODP editors are everywhere. I recently discovered that there are at least 4 other editors living within 20km of me.
If the site has the details of opening hours, telephone number, physical address, and a few images of the inside and outside of the shop, then it is fairly easy to verify that it does or does not exist, from business directories, municipal records, the phone book, or just by asking an editor to drive by and take a look. ODP editors are everywhere. I recently discovered that there are at least 4 other editors living within 20km of me.
Sigh.
I hate it when a thread descends into ranting and accusations of corruption. I hate it even more when the ranter starts sending me private messages or e-mails accusing me personally of having something to hide.
What we have here in this category is a good demonstration of the evolution of dmoz. At one point ages ago almost every site that was submitted got listed, all sorts of crap went in, alongside some good stuff. Then we started to evolve guidelines for what should and shouldn't be listed, and those guidelines have been shifting and changing over time, constantly refining the directory to make it more useful.
jb123 says: "Shouldn't your rules and regulations apply to everyone?". Well, yes they should. The problem is that there are nearly 4 million sites in the directory, and only a couple of hundred editors capable of running around and clearing up. It's a mammoth task to clean out all the sites that were listed correctly, but wouldn't meet today's guidelines. The way we deal with it is to simply leave them there until they require a re-review for any reason.
So what we end up with is a category that contains several sites that don't meet today's rules. A submitter sees that and submits their site, and the reviewing editor correctly denies a listing because it doesn't meet the rules. The submitter knowing nothing of our history immediately cries "corruption" and goes running off to tell everybody he knows.
There's no preferrential treatment going on here. What you can see is editors correctly applying guidelines to all new submissions, but without the time to go through and delete all the stuff that wouldn't qualify if it were submitted today. And until there's a massive increase in the number of editors, that's the way it's going to stay.
I hate it when a thread descends into ranting and accusations of corruption. I hate it even more when the ranter starts sending me private messages or e-mails accusing me personally of having something to hide.
What we have here in this category is a good demonstration of the evolution of dmoz. At one point ages ago almost every site that was submitted got listed, all sorts of crap went in, alongside some good stuff. Then we started to evolve guidelines for what should and shouldn't be listed, and those guidelines have been shifting and changing over time, constantly refining the directory to make it more useful.
jb123 says: "Shouldn't your rules and regulations apply to everyone?". Well, yes they should. The problem is that there are nearly 4 million sites in the directory, and only a couple of hundred editors capable of running around and clearing up. It's a mammoth task to clean out all the sites that were listed correctly, but wouldn't meet today's guidelines. The way we deal with it is to simply leave them there until they require a re-review for any reason.
So what we end up with is a category that contains several sites that don't meet today's rules. A submitter sees that and submits their site, and the reviewing editor correctly denies a listing because it doesn't meet the rules. The submitter knowing nothing of our history immediately cries "corruption" and goes running off to tell everybody he knows.
There's no preferrential treatment going on here. What you can see is editors correctly applying guidelines to all new submissions, but without the time to go through and delete all the stuff that wouldn't qualify if it were submitted today. And until there's a massive increase in the number of editors, that's the way it's going to stay.
>> Unless you have something unique. So what's unique? If you're an Orange Hand Goo site, maybe you start handling all sorts of cleaning products from multiple vendors, and offer unique combinations of products. Of course, 45 other sites will likely copy you in 2 months... <<
Or you could write (and copyright), say, a history of Orange Hand Goo, and its derivation from clear hand goo by the addition of OranjStuf(TM). Not everything has to be about selling things, even on a shopping site. Adding unique informational content is a little extra effort, but it is one way of increasing the probability of an ODP listing, and as a bonus, can bring extra traffic to your site (e.g. from Orange Hand Goo history buffs). It's not just ODP editors who appreciate unique content; "regular" people do, too.
Or you could write (and copyright), say, a history of Orange Hand Goo, and its derivation from clear hand goo by the addition of OranjStuf(TM). Not everything has to be about selling things, even on a shopping site. Adding unique informational content is a little extra effort, but it is one way of increasing the probability of an ODP listing, and as a bonus, can bring extra traffic to your site (e.g. from Orange Hand Goo history buffs). It's not just ODP editors who appreciate unique content; "regular" people do, too.
lachenm, you've posted concisely what I wanted to say. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> There's always a way to make your site original, and by adding researched information about you're product you're encouraging people to visit your site.
Fata Morgana
Fata Morgana
>There's always a way to make your site original, and by adding researched information about you're product you're encouraging people to visit your site.
Always? I doubt it. Often? perhaps. What you describe will not make an affiliate shopping site listable, although it may help improve its standings in the search engines, and (if you believe in marketroid-thinking, which I often don't) it may encourage people to buy from your site.
Bear in mind that in most Shopping categories what counts is the Shopping content. A site may contain the world's largest collection of recordings of Brazilian tree frog mating calls, but that won't get it listed in Shopping. (Biology, maybe.)
Also consider this official "staff directive," which I'm paraphrasing as best I can remember: "Look at the intent of the (affiliate shopping) site. If the content wouldn't be there if not to support the affiliate links; if the content isn't useful without the affiliate links, then don't list it."
Another rule of thumb: "Ignore the affiliate shopping content when reviewing the site; consider listing on the basis of its other content, if the affiliate links don't get in the way of viewing the other content."
You absolutely can't turn an affiliate shopping site into ANYTHING and make it listable in shopping. You generally can't turn an affiliate shopping site into an informational site (and make it listable).
You can, however, add affiliate shopping to an informational site (without harming its useability or destroying its listability.) It might even increase its useability. Warning: You can also turn an informational site into an affiliate shopping site in such a way as to destroy its listability and your own credibility both.
Always? I doubt it. Often? perhaps. What you describe will not make an affiliate shopping site listable, although it may help improve its standings in the search engines, and (if you believe in marketroid-thinking, which I often don't) it may encourage people to buy from your site.
Bear in mind that in most Shopping categories what counts is the Shopping content. A site may contain the world's largest collection of recordings of Brazilian tree frog mating calls, but that won't get it listed in Shopping. (Biology, maybe.)
Also consider this official "staff directive," which I'm paraphrasing as best I can remember: "Look at the intent of the (affiliate shopping) site. If the content wouldn't be there if not to support the affiliate links; if the content isn't useful without the affiliate links, then don't list it."
Another rule of thumb: "Ignore the affiliate shopping content when reviewing the site; consider listing on the basis of its other content, if the affiliate links don't get in the way of viewing the other content."
You absolutely can't turn an affiliate shopping site into ANYTHING and make it listable in shopping. You generally can't turn an affiliate shopping site into an informational site (and make it listable).
You can, however, add affiliate shopping to an informational site (without harming its useability or destroying its listability.) It might even increase its useability. Warning: You can also turn an informational site into an affiliate shopping site in such a way as to destroy its listability and your own credibility both.
Hmmm, well, yes. I suppose I look at this sort of thing as a webmaster more than as an editor. And as much as I like and respect the ODP, it's not the end-all be-all for having a sucessful website; not getting a listing in the ODP is not going to break you as a business, and it's silly for someone to talk as if that's true.
Fata Morgana
Fata Morgana
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