Question on which category our site belongs...

Hello guys. I recently submitted our "For Sale By Owner" site under the the "/Shopping/Classifieds/Real_Estate/". The site is HomesbyLender.com . We help sellers by giving them free online classified ads and FSBO signs in markets where we are currently represented. The service is free because each market is run by mortgage companies. We basically co-market with the seller and offer financing to the potential buyers inquiring on the homes hence "Homes by Lender".

The answer I received back is "this category does not list lead generator sites".

So now I am confused to which category to apply for. We are not a "lead generation" service. I chose the above category because there are several sites there that do the same thing we do. HomesbyOwner.com is one example. Many of their markets are run by mortgage companies that offer free listings. Many are also run by FSBO magazine companies that use that site to get magazine listings. There are several more listed in that category that offer similar FSBO services, many offer free listings like us to promote certain services.

I really don't want to be categorized as lead generators because our focus is on getting the homes exposure for the sellers. We market home buyers not other mortgage companies.

There is one FSBO lead generation service in your directory that sells leads from FSBO's. Their site is Warnocks By Owner They are listed under "Business: Real Estate: Marketing and Advertising: Direct Marketing". However they sell FSBO leads, we do not do that so I am not sure that is the best place for us.

We simply advertise the homes and offer our lending services on the site. Most if not all FSBO sites offer mortgage services. I appreciate any input or advice. Thank you.

>> The answer I received back is "this category does not list lead generator sites"...So now I am confused to which category to apply for.

We don't list lead generators anywhere so a lead generator site shouldn't be submitted anywhere.

So we can't be listed at all? HomesbyLender.com is a network of mortgage companies that offer FSBO services. We are not a lead generation company that sells leads. What is the difference between homesbylender.com and all the other FSBO sites you have listed? ALL of them are lead generators in one way or another. The biggest FSBO lead generation company that I know of (Warnocks is listed in the directory. They literally sell FSBO leads, we do not sell leads or even share them.

Even with the FSBO sites that are listed that charge the sellers a listing fee, they all offer mortgage lending services which in turn generate mortgage leads for whomever runs that site. Most are run by real estate companies or mortgage firms.

After reviewing the FSBO sites you have listed (in this category_ , there are numerous ones that offer free listings. ALL of them are lead generators in one form or another, some charge an initial fee to the sellers some don't. We choose not to. The site was designed to give our lending services exposure while advertising homes.

I am not sure what the DMOZ definition of lead generation is but most business websites are lead generators. That is why businesses pay good money to be on the web, to generate business leads. How are we any different? HomesbyLender.com DOES NOT sell mortgage leads like a Lending Tree (the biggest mortgage lead generation site in the nation, which is also in the directory). LendingTree.com charges mortgage companies thousands of dollars a month for mortgage leads. All of our markets are run by a different mortgage company that is part of our network, they generate their own leads and they DO NOT sell their leads.

Please reconsider. Thank you.

>I am not sure what the DMOZ definition of lead generation is but most business websites are lead generators.

This is a very hard, perhaps impossible, concept for marketers to understand, so in the end it really can't matter to us whether you understand.

But there are four important distinctions that we make.

One is the difference between motive and method. Both a bank and a stock-kiting scam are "moneymaking plans", whereas a credit union is not. But we happily lump banks and credit unions, and distinguish stock-kiting scams. Clearly every webmaster must have a motive; equally clearly, that motive is almost perfectly irrelevant to us. Truly, most businesses hope their websites will produce leads. But it is how they accomplish that that matters to us!

The second distinction is between "promotional" and "informational" language. A business may hope to promote itself by its website, and much of the website's language may be content-free promotional-hype marketroid-babbling: but all that matters to us is whether (somewhere in the babble) there is a core of information about the business. It doesn't take a lot -- a business card won't cut it, but the information content of a quarter-page newspaper ad probably would.

The third is the difference between what an ENTITY does, and what a website maintained by it does. We are only interested in the website--but the only unique thing about a website might be the entity behind it.

The final distinction is the direction of information. We list sites that GIVE unique information; there can be nothing unique about the COLLECTION of information.

OK, how does this work in practice? You see the purpose of other sites -- we care nothing for that, and are concerned only with certain activities that might or might not be intended to achieve that purpose. You see the promotional language and suppose that we list the sites because of it -- whereas the opposite is true, we list the sites (if at all) in spite of it. You see your site intended to collect information -- that's fine, but it is another thing that we tolerate barely (if at all), and only in the presence of something that's of value to us.

On the other hand, you overlook the importance of giving unique information, and you badly confuse what the WEBSITE is intended to accomplish with what the entity does. You say the website represents a "network of lenders." Not having rolled off the turnip truck yesterday, we know what that means: it's an advertising doorway for businesses that can't afford the risk of their reputation getting in the way of new business and therefore find it advantageous to remain anonymous. That's fine, but we don't list sites of advertising doorways there. We list sites of lenders, and we list them only insofar as (and only because) they give uniquely authoritative (because official) information about those lenders.

This is understandably not a position with which you can sympathize, but at least you may be able to see how far we are from having any conceivable common interest -- and to see how your own interest is best served by seeking partners who might conceivably share some part of it.

The problem of "lead generator" sites is, we recognize, widespread, insidious, and potentially significantly harmful to our mission and our product. In the old days editors had to do periodic sweeps to whack the vstore sites that had slipped in by taking advantage of trusting editors. Now vstore is less of a problem (no more insidious, no less harmful, but better known and therefore less insinuatory); and now, blind lead generators are one of the things that we have to sweep the house for.

hutcheson said:

>I You say the website represents a "network of lenders." Not having rolled off the turnip truck yesterday, we know what that means: it's an advertising doorway for businesses that can't afford the risk of their reputation getting in the way of new business and therefore find it advantageous to remain anonymous. That's fine, but we don't list sites of advertising doorways there. We list sites of lenders, and we list them only insofar as (and only because) they give uniquely authoritative (because official) information about those lenders.

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Our site is truly at network of lenders. How do you conceive that the lenders are anonymous? If you look at a market site (take Austin, Texas for example), it is clear that Titan Mortgage is representing that market, we have no reason to hide that fact. The market site if full of "official information" on the represeting lender. A consumer cannot miss that, it is shown all over the site. Secondly, we offer a unique and valuable service to all consumers. The methods of our service are upfront and spelled out. The biggest difference between us and many other FSBO sites is that we spell it out who we are and why we do it. We do not hide the fact of our "motive" because our motive is non-threatening to consumers. Our "motive" is what makes people want to use the site. Unlike most FSBO sites (many that you have listed), we do not use our site as a way to get sellers to pay to list on the MLS. If we are able to help their buyer get financed then great, if not, then the seller has still received free exposure with no obligation to anyone.

The bottom line is... if a consumer wants to search Google for "homes for sale by owner" than they should get the best results. Take the Austin, Texas market for example. "austin fsbo" is a common search term for Austin for sale by owner homes. In the top results of Google you get a bunch of non-relevant sites. Most do not have any number of homes truly for sale by owner and many are just scams to get people to pay for "flat fee MLS services". The consumer is not getting the best results. Our Austin market site currently has 60 homes truly for sale by owner, more than any others highly ranked by Google.

From your responses it sounds like you think we are scamming people or something and that you guys need to protect the public from us. We do not force our loans on people inquiring on these properties. The fact is, many need financing and they are glad we can help them get into a home. The seller's are estatic because they are getting exposure without paying a dime. It is truly a win-win situation for everyone involved.

I respectfully apologize for disagreeing. However, I ask that you put yourself in the shoes of a consumer. If you wanted to buy or sell a home on your own without paying an agent, would you not want to find our site? If not, I would really like to know why.

I respectfully apologize for disagreeing. However, you have to put yourself in the shoes of a consumer. If you wanted to buy or sell a home on your own without paying an agent, would you not want to find our site? If not, I would really like to know why.

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You certainly do not have to apologize for disagreeing, but we do thank you for the courteousness of having done so.

Just a thought here...you suggest that we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the consumer. That is really not what we have to do, or should do. What we have to do, and should do is focus on providing the best web directory we can. This means that we should be looking for and listing the website for Acme Mortgage, rather than the website of a company that represents them and 17 of their brethren.

Tour companies suffer from the same misconception. They tell us that they have these wonderful websites where people can find out about 13 different cruise lines, all in one place. And we ask ourselves, why would we want to list their site when we can list the 13 individual websites belonging to the 13 different cruise lines? We're funny that way, we don't see an economy of scale as a good thing. Ask any library, if they had to choose, would they rather carry six complete hardcover novels, or the one copy of the Reader's Digest version with six novels under a single cover.

Thanks for remaining civil. You may never realize how much we appreciate it.

spectregunner said:

Thanks for remaining civil. You may never realize how much we appreciate it.

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No problem spectregunner. I firmly believe in being courteous in all situations. I am sure you guys get into enough hot discussions with webmasters. I will obviously have to live with any decision you guys make.

Maybe down the road you guys will reconsider when we are larger and more established. The frustrating thing now is, much of our competition (doing the exact same thing) are listed in the directory. Most FSBO sites do, however we are upfront and honest to how our site works. We feel that is important to the consumer because our fsbo listing services are free and we don't want the consumer to have to wonder what the "catch" is.

Most of us sincerely enjoy working with FSBO sellers and gaining our mortgage business via their referrals and the inquiries we get through the system. Of course the sellers get the most benefit from people searching for homes not mortgages. This is why we gear our sites towards the homes for sale not mortgages. It just so happens that most people buying a home need a loan and that's where we benefit. It is black and white for everyone involved.

Thanks to all of you for taking the time and responding to my long messages. I am hoping down the road you will amend your guidelines some.

P.S. Do you plan on deleting already listed sites that are true "lead generation" sites? I never thought of us as such however when you all mentioned lead generation, the first company that came to mind is Lending Tree (they are one of the largest). Lending Tree is not a lender at all. When you apply with Lending Tree they send your information to several mortgage companies that pay them (this is how lenders "compete"). I believe they charge over $20K a month to the mortgage companies. In the mortgage industry, these types of firms are what is considered "lead generation" companies. Most of them are rip-offs and sell the same leads to multiple lenders.

I understand your concern for how search engine results work. But -- it is not a concern that we as editors can share. We are trying to do our best to provide directory results -- a very different perspective on the web.

The whole issue of lead generation businesses is complex. I take this approach: (1) If a company provides a service (Lending Tree), then we are willing to list a website that describes that service -- information about that service is unique content. But a website that did not provide that information, or a website that provided that same service (which by definition COULDN'T provide that information, since there is no company for it to be about) could not be listed.

The vast majority of lead generation sites are very simple. They take information, they don't give it out. We changed our policies after literally dozens of quality complaints from our users -- and we noticed the pattern. A lead generation site may offer a unique service, but by definition it cannot offer a demonstrably unique service -- if it lists its lenders, then that's not unique (since we list them also by their own websites); if it doesn't list it's lenders, then there's no content to BE unique. So in either case, by our "unique content" rule we shouldn't list them.

This is not to say there is necessarily something evil about the business. I daresay it attracts many dishonest people--I've dealt with not a few of them; but several editors mentioned that they had personally obtained valuable services from such firms. And in general we CAN'T judge on that basis. Our basis is the information content of the website.

As an aside, the information about the FSBO business model is interesting. I had wondered why so many of them, all nearly empty, had sprung up. Obviously searchers would be benefited much much more by a few well-populated sites, and so our standards for new FSBO sites are VERY high. If you pick out the weakest site in the category, we'd almost certainly remove it if we re-reviewed it. So it's not enough to be the second-worst listing of FSBO homes. Even the average site in the category, if reviewed today, might not be listed. You need to be the best -- the richest in content by some measure. (Obviously there are multiple measures, but they would all relate to number, focus, and searchability of the listings.)