Removal of MLM IR Sites

I recently had my site www.feedmypet.com added to the category http://dmoz.org/Business/Opportunities/Networking-MLM/F/Flint_River_Ranch/Independent_Representatives/

I just noticed yesterday that the whole category http://dmoz.org/Business/Opportunities/Networking-MLM/F/Flint_River_Ranch/Independent_Representatives/ seems to have disappeared. Is the category being moved or was it deleted?

Thank you in advance for your response.

Dave

Re: www.feedmypet.com

Deleted.

Unlikely to return.

Re: www.feedmypet.com

Hutcheson,

Thank you for your quick response. I believe the list of Flint River Ranch independent distributor websites benefits Internet users for the following reasons:

1) The manufacturer of Flint River Ranch pet food does not have a website, or a web presence of any kind. Independent distributors who develop their own websites are the only way for Internet users to get information on this all-natural pet food.

2) Independent distributors provide the only way to place orders through the Internet.

3) All distributors are not created equal. Distributors host their own websites, shopping carts (there are no links to an affiliates site), and provide individual customer service and product education. Special discounts and promotional offers are often directly from the distributor, and not from Flint River Ranch.

At www.feedmypet.com, we offer every day discounted prices (a rare feature for distributors), a 20% off introductory offer, free samples, and a toll free number for questions and phone orders. None of these services are offered by Flint River Ranch.

Having a list of independent distributors would allow Internet users to learn about this healthy all natural pet food, receive toll free support, receive free samples, and to shop for the best price and customer service.

If this category cannot be reinstated, would it be possible to list my site under another category related to pet products or a regional category?

Thanks you,

Dave

Re: www.feedmypet.com

The question about MLM Independent Representatives has been discussed for quite some time by the Meta Editors, and it was recently decided to remove all IR categories from Business/Opportunities/Networking-MLM/. It is extremely unlikely that they will be put back in. If you want to attempt to convince the metas that they should be put back in, start up a general thread about MLM IR sites in the "General ODP Issues" forum.<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>he manufacturer of Flint River Ranch pet food does not have a website, or a web presence of any kind.<p><hr></blockquote>Maybe you should convince Flint River Ranch to put up a website with links to all of the IR websites.<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Independent distributors who develop their own websites are the only way for Internet users to get information on this all-natural pet food. ....

Independent distributors provide the only way to place orders through the Internet<p><hr></blockquote>The metas were well aware of this fact when the decision was made to remove all IR categories.<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Distributors host their own websites, shopping carts (there are no links to an affiliates site), and provide individual customer service and product education.<p><hr></blockquote>None of that counts towards "unique content and value" (thought their opposites would count against it.)<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Special discounts and promotional offers are often directly from the distributor, and not from Flint River Ranch.<p><hr></blockquote>I'm guessing that the metas did not consider this variation between IR sites to be enough unique content/value to make it worth maintaining the IR categories (I'm only guessing, since I wasn't a part of the private metas-only discussion on the subject).<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>If this category cannot be reinstated, would it be possible to list my site under another category related to pet products or a regional category?<p><hr></blockquote>No. If the ODP was going to list IR sites at all, it would be in the IR categories that were just removed.

Re: www.feedmypet.com

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p> The question about MLM Independent Representatives has been discussed for quite some time by the Meta Editors, and it was recently decided to remove all IR categories from Business/Opportunities/Networking-MLM/.
<p><hr></blockquote>I now understand I am dealing with a broad general policy about MLM representatives.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p> Maybe you should convince Flint River Ranch to put up a website with links to all of the IR websites. <p><hr></blockquote>I have approached Flint River Ranch about starting a company website, but they have no interest or plans to do so.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p> If you want to attempt to convince the metas that they should be put back in, start up a general thread about MLM IR sites in the "General ODP Issues" forum. <p><hr></blockquote>It would be very useful to discuss this issue in a public forum, however, I do not want to defend all MLM companies. For example, if an MLM representative (or any vendor for that matter) simply links to a shared shopping cart hosted by the parent company offering the same prices, I would agree that there should not be multiple listings. However, if the representatives offer unique prices, promotional specials, and customer service, I would agree to multiple listing. After all, the Internet is a great comparative shopping vehicle.

Here are some more questions for thought:

1) If I add another product that is not sold by Flint River Ranch, would I still be considered simple a MLM representative ineligible for a listing (We are currently thinking of adding other products)?

2) What is the difference between the MLM representative listings and some of the listing in Top: Business: Opportunities: Distributors . I don’t believe that the fact that Flint River Ranch is sold by through MLM affects customers learning and purchasing the product.

Thank you,

Dave

Re: www.feedmypet.com

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>The question about MLM Independent Representatives has been discussed for quite some time by the Meta Editors, and it was recently decided to remove all IR categories from Business/Opportunities/Networking-MLM/. It is extremely unlikely that they will be put back in...

I'm guessing that the metas did not consider this variation between IR sites to be enough unique content/value to make it worth maintaining the IR categories (I'm only guessing, since I wasn't a part of the private metas-only discussion on the subject).<p><hr></blockquote>Can a Meta Editor comment on the statements above?


<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>If you want to attempt to convince the metas that they should be put back in, start up a general thread about MLM IR sites in the "General ODP Issues" forum. <p><hr></blockquote>Can an Administrator kindly rename this thread to "Removal of MLM IR sites" and place it in the General ODP Issues category? This would save repeating all the points that have been made so far.

Thank you,

Dave

Re: www.feedmypet.com

Can a Meta Editor comment on the statements above?

What Khym wrote is true.

Can an Administrator kindly rename this thread to "Removal of MLM IR sites" and place it in the General ODP Issues category?

Ask and ye shall receive. /images/icons/wink.gif

Re: www.feedmypet.com

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Ask and ye shall receive.<p><hr></blockquote> Thank you. If only life was always that simple /images/icons/wink.gif


Apeuro, in another thread you stated:

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>A user, looking to compare prices, isn't well served by seeing several sites offering the same product for the same price. OTOH, if your site were to offer a price lower than Pill Store.com , then that would most certainly be something useful for our users - and thus eligible to be listed.<p><hr></blockquote>Do you truly believe this, and do you think it applies in this case?

Dave

Re: www.feedmypet.com

Do you truly believe this, and do you think it applies in this case?

I do believe this wholeheartedly, although since I'm unfamiliar with your MLM program I cannot comment with respect to your site.

99% of the MLM IR sites consisted of what we call a "business card" listing. That is the content of the site consisted of nothing but the contact info. Although I don't think this is possible in the context of an MLM site, were an MLM rep be able to offer online shopping with UNIQUE prices, I would be seriously consider the site in question.

Re: www.feedmypet.com

Apeuro,

Thank you for your response. Flint River Ranch is indeed a very unique (and low key) MLM company. Distributors are considered independent contractors and approach the business in their own way.

We actually do offer unique prices (which causing a lot of additional work on our part) and maintain a secure shopping cart and a merchant account.

As I stated in an earlier post, I do not want to defend all MLM sites. Maybe MLM representatives (or distributors) need to be handled on a case-by-case basis, just as any other website (just what you guys need, more work /images/icons/wink.gif).

The decision to remove all MLM representatives took a lot of time and discussion, so I assume it won’t be a quick decision to permit some of them back in. I’ll just sit back and wait for a decision (assuming that there is an active discussion going on /images/icons/smile.gif).

Regards,

Dave

Re: www.feedmypet.com

Dear Editors,

Do you think a shopping site that has UNIQUE discounted prices would benefit the users of OPD, and hence qualify for a listing? Does the business model of the company matter (e.g., MLM, distributor, reseller, etc.)?

Thanks,
Dave

Re: www.feedmypet.com

The type of business does matter. We cant possibly check for pricing schemes being unique. And we cant recheck if pricing schemes arent changed later.

Anyway: Its described in http://dmoz.org/guidelines/include.html#affiliate very well - the guidelines serve us as a rule and not as a proposal

Re: www.feedmypet.com

windharp,


The current guidelines state:

"You may list the domain for the corporate site, however, you should not list independent representatives or distributor sites. For example, only the main Metabolife should be listed in the category Business/Opportunities/Networking-MLM . Metabolife representative sites should not be listed anywhere in the directory. You may come across a personal page that includes information on one's activity in an MLM program. If the thrust of the site is not to peddle products from an MLM program, then the site might be a good candidate to list."

Click to expand...

The current guideline for listing IR (independent representative) MLM sites is clear, however, the MLM guideline was a recent addition that resulted in the removal of many sites (hence the title of the thread "Removal of MLM IR sites"). I would just like to have an open discussion of this very broad policy.

It is my understanding that 99% of the IR MLM listings were simply contact info. In the effort to remove duplicate content, I believe some collateral damage was done and some useful info was removed. In particular, the removal of distributors that offered unique prices and services (e.g., toll free support, free samples, unique intro offers). I personally had found the organized list of distributors very useful during comparison shopping.

I also believe an organized list of IR sites that do provide value (e.g., unique prices) listed together in a category is better than, applying the subjective guidelines stating "If the thrust of the site is not to peddle products from an MLM program, then the site might be a good candidate to list."

From this stance, I can only assume that all independent distributor sites, such as http://dmoz.org/Business/Opportunities/Distributors/Grobust/Independent_Distributors/ will soon be removed. I don't see a reason for singling out MLM companies.

Anymore opinions?

Dave

Re: www.feedmypet.com

There is unlikely to be a public discussion of this issue. There are two parameters -- the value to the public of such sites (approaching nil for some very small values of nil), and the pain to the editors of the MLM spammers (higher than can be appreciated by outsiders.)

The ODP is much more likely to add more categories of "insufficiently valuable and insufferably pestilential" sites than to remove some recognized categories from the list. And so your question about Grobust is worth considering (although the only public announcement of the result is likely to be the removal or non-removal of the category in the publicly visible directory.)

Re: www.feedmypet.com

Hutcheson,

Thanks for your response.

The ODP is much more likely to add more categories of "insufficiently valuable and insufferably pestilential" sites than to remove some recognized categories from the list.

Click to expand...

Ouch! I won't take that personally <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

There are two parameters -- the value to the public of such sites (approaching nil for some very small values of nil), and the pain to the editors of the MLM spammers (higher than can be appreciated by outsiders.)

Click to expand...

On the contrary, I would think that having a tightly controlled category (i.e., uniform descriptions) for independents distributors is an efficient way to control spam. A vague and subjective guideline such as "If the thrust of the site is not to peddle products from an MLM program, then the site might be a good candidate to list", opens the door to spamming. I can imagine all the time wasted by editors arguing this point.

And so your question about Grobust is worth considering

Click to expand...

I used Grobust as a particular example. There are also a number of other categories that list independent distributors. The problem is the conflicting philosophies present in the directory. I've read in these forums that the business model of a company is irrelevant. To use one of your inspired quotes from another thread:

"Nor do we care about your business model -- you may get paid per doorway page, or click, or fixed fee per sale, or your own markup, or you can give clicks away to your brother-in-law. You may ship from your warehouse or from mars. You may have more dummy corporations than Enron, or list the same anonymous Tampa, Florida P.O. Box on every single site. You can collect via PayPal, Visa, or only use couriers with brass knuckles and baseball bats. It doesn't matter."

If non-MLM independent distributors are listed, but MLM distributors aren't, then obviously the business model does matter.

There is unlikely to be a public discussion of this issue.

Click to expand...

I understand the need for private discussion, but is there a mechanism to find out the results? Do I check the guidelines every week looking for a change? Do I wait for the category to mysteriously appear? Will the category appear if nobody submits a fitting site (catch 22)? If you agree to list IR MLM sites, how would I know it is OK to submit my site?

I really do appreciate this forum and the chance to have these discussions.

Thanks,

Dave

Re: www.feedmypet.com

On the contrary, I would think that having a tightly controlled category (i.e., uniform descriptions) for independents distributors is an efficient way to control spam.

Click to expand...

We had this some time ago and removed those categories shortly. Sorry to say, but that did not take us anywhere. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

I understand the need for private discussion, but is there a mechanism to find out the results?

Click to expand...

You already see the results in our current guidelines - internal discussions are already finished and resulted in the current situation. Of course it may be rediscussed and so may change, but dont expaect it anytime soon.

Re: www.feedmypet.com

On the contrary, I would think that having a tightly controlled category (i.e., uniform descriptions) for independents distributors is an efficient way to control spam. A vague and subjective guideline such as "If the thrust of the site is not to peddle products from an MLM program, then the site might be a good candidate to list", opens the door to spamming. I can imagine all the time wasted by editors arguing this point.

Click to expand...

It's (probably) easier and less time consuming for an editor to

• distinguish between a personal web page which mentions MLM, versus a personal web page which is mainly about MLM, than...
• to disginguish between an MLM which offers unique pricing structures, discounts, and so on, versus the run of the mill MLM sites.[/list:u]Also, if spammers create a personal web page which merely mentions MLM, and get that into a personal web page category... Well, they're not going to be very satisfied with that. Of course, they could change their site after it gets listed, but they can pull such bait-and-switch tactics even if all mentions of MLM were prohibited.

  If non-MLM independent distributors are listed, but MLM distributors aren't, then obviously the business model does matter.

  Click to expand...

  We don't care about business models in and of themselves, but we do care about the correlations that they have to the work of mainting the ODP. That is, when editing, we don't care if we think a business model is stupid or will quickly lead to bankruptcy (or if we think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread), but we do care if it seems to lead to us spending lots of time finding needles in haystacks when we could instead just ignore that whole area and more fruitfully spend our time editing in other areas.

&gt;&gt;If non-MLM independent distributors are listed, but MLM distributors aren't, then obviously the business model does matter.

Well, this is perfectly valid logic, so long as the only difference between MLM "distributor" sites and non-MLM distributor sites is the business model.

But despite the theoretical possibility that a MLM site might contain information worth cataloging (and I did argue for guidelines allowing for it), in practice we simply weren't seeing such sites. And as I gained experience in that particular neighborhood, I had to agree with the experienced editors. In practice, the MLM sites were always (99.99% of the time at least) completely devoid of unique, relevant informational content, and so we determined that we shouldn't waste time reviewing them.

There are other types of sites that have earned the same kind of reputation, and have deservedly received the same kind of response.

Independent representative sites have not yet been recognized as being so invariably and utterly without cognitively redeeming value. If this changes, then we'll consider nuking them too.

But we won't ask the webmasters for permission.

It's (probably) easier and less time consuming for an editor to

1) distinguish between a personal web page which mentions MLM, versus a personal web page which is mainly about MLM, than...

Click to expand...

Spammers are much more clever than that. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

2) to distinguish between an MLM which offers unique pricing structures, discounts, and so on, versus the run of the mill MLM sites.

Click to expand...

I agree that it would be difficult to check for unique prices. My main point is that this standard is not required for non-MLM distributors.

Independent representative sites have not yet been recognized as being so invariably and utterly without cognitively redeeming value.

Click to expand...

I guess that an all-natural pet food that has been voted in the top ten for multiple years in a row by The Whole Dog Journal (the consumer reports of dog health) can't live up to the standards set by Grobust, Bust Plus, and the various other breast enlargement creams (although nothing against wanting to improve oneself <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

Well, this is perfectly valid logic, so long as the only difference between MLM "distributor" sites and non-MLM distributor sites is the business model.

Click to expand...

The fact is the only difference between www.feedmypet.com and the listed distributors is the business model. In addition, my site offers unique discounted prices. I guess I'll just have to accept being thrown out with the trash. Thank you all for the chance to express my opinion.

Dave

It's (probably) easier and less time consuming for an editor to

1) distinguish between a personal web page which mentions MLM, versus a personal web page which is mainly about MLM, than...

Click to expand...

Spammers are much more clever than that.

Click to expand...

What, exactly, would they do? You said that allowing personal web pages which mention MLMs would be a loophole (or something similar), and I said responded that it's a "loophole" that's easy for editors to deal with; I don't see what else they could do with the allowence for personal pages which allow for mention of MLM. Of course, MLM site owners could submit their ordinary MLM sites all over the Business/ and Shopping/ trees of ODP, but we have ways of dealing with that. One of the purposes of the MLM IR categories was to act as a "lightning rod" for MLM sites, so they wouldn't get submitted to the rest of the directory, but our anti-spam technology has advanced since then, so we no longer need such lightning rods.

2) to distinguish between an MLM which offers unique pricing structures, discounts, and so on, versus the run of the mill MLM sites.

Click to expand...

I agree that it would be difficult to check for unique prices. My main point is that this standard is not required for non-MLM distributors.

Click to expand...

"unique pricing structures, discounts, and so on" is just a way of saying "unique content", which is required of all sites. The vast majority of MLM IR sites have no unique content, so we just give up on the whole area. The editors who deal with non-MLM distributors don't think that the majoirty of non-MLM IR sites are largely identical to each other, so they consider them to have "unique content"; thus, all distributor websites must meet the same standard. If there are non-MLM IR sites that use a cookie-cutter approach to pricing and such, they should be removed from the directory, but such sites don't make up a large enough percentage of site submissions to the point where we'd just want to give up on that particular area.