Resubmitting - FAQ and post answers

Hi and thanks for reading.

I have read over the rules and FAQ, in addition to the posts here but I can't find a specific answer.

If Mr A. person (a.k.a ME) submits a site to DMOZ what happens to that submission. I know that an editor comes along and may review my site eventially, but then what.

I can see two senarios happening. One, they include it. Two they disregard it.

If they include it in the directory, fine, Mr. A is happy. Life goes on.
If they don't include it, does the submission get "deleted" off "the" list? Meaning Mr A.Person never knows and continues to wait. (Of course, life still goes on..)

Cheers and thanks for your answers.

If they include it in the directory, fine, Mr. A is happy.

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True

Life goes on.

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Even truer

If they don't include it, does the submission get "deleted" off "the" list?

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If it's reviewed and not accepted it disappears. Sometimes an editor might start to review, and decide to postpone a decision in which case it stays. Or an editor sees it belongs in another category and moves it to another pile for another editor.

Meaning Mr A.Person never knows and continues to wait.

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He could decide to do that - although we have never figured out what people are waiting for.

(Of course, life still goes on..)

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That's the best choice

Bottom line is we don't have a policy to notify of acceptance or refusal. Some editors might choose to do that, but it's rare.

And, at some point in the future, (assuming that the webmaster is engaged in continous improvement, and the site actually has redeeming qualities) an editor may "discover" the site and decide again whether or not to list it.

Same question

I was going to start a new thread but healthymonkey asked essentially the same question I wanted to ask and no doubt many others have already asked.

I find it strange that no response is given to people who submit their site as bobrat wrote since we are required to give an e-mail when we suggest a site for inclusion. Is the only reason for the e-mail address to stop spam?

I submitted my site for inclusion over a month ago and nothing happened. Having waited a while I submitted an application to become an editor for the area to which I tried to submit my site but was rejected (as an editor) with no reasons specified. So far neither my site nor the others that I recommended (btw completely unaffiliated with me) have been included in the directory. It seemed odd that I was assessed not to be worthy of being an editor faster than my site was assessed so I resubmitted the site (as per the FAQ on resubmitting).

I am a University researcher in the area in which I was applying to be an editor so I know there are many sites which should be included in that area and have not been. I have an interest in making sure as many relevant sites as possible are added to this category and not just my own hence my qualification as an editor, or so I thought.

Anyway, that is by the by. I don't see why at least an automated response cannot be sent to people who submit sites and are then rejected. Surely all the editor has to do is click a button. Are you worried that people would just keep resubmitting sites if they knew when they had been rejected...

Sites from a rejected editor application are usually not added to the unreviewed pile - because they weren't exactly "suggested". You could suggest those sites to the appropriate category though.

Is it possible that the category you applied for was larger than normal for a new editor - typically a new editor would be approved for a category with less than 50 listed sites and no subcategories.

Maybe another category where you don't have quite as much knowledge would be better - not that knowledge isn't a good thing, but sometimes it can be detrimental when just beginning an editing "career". How about looking at a Regional category instead. Your hometown - or a neighboring town?

Is the only reason for the e-mail address to stop spam?

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I don't email someone if the sites is accepted, and I certainly never email someone when I reject a site - it can lead to very nasty communicaiton.

But occassionly, if I see a site that is almost acceptable and I really want to add it, but there is some minor thing that needs to be fixed first, it's nice to have that email address to inform the site owner. I will tell them I'll review the sites again in a week, and if it's fixed I'll add the site, otherwise to resubmit it when fixed.

I''ve also used it when some poor misguided person was submitting every single page of her art site. I happened to catch her in the middle of doing it, and rather than wait and have to delete 200+ submissions, I was able to stop her after about 30 pages. I considered that accidental inncoent spam. If it had been intentional, I would have asked for the site to be blacklisted.

I've also used it when I saw a web designer submitting all his cleints' sites [which were not in English] to an English language category. Saves me having to move them all myself.

Firstly, thanks for your responses.

I submitted my site and applied to be an editor in:

http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Searching/Metasearch/

There are links at the bottom saying "volunteer" and "become an editor" so presumably ODP is seeking editors.

It has 47 categories mostly to do with standard metasearch. I was primarily concerned with automatic question answering (QA) sites of which there is only one, Brainboost, listed. There are at least 6 such sites that I know of but only Brainboost is listed. Most of them are non-commercial sites like my own which aim to show the state of the art in the field rather than to always get the answer right! Brainboost is pretty good, it's a commercial site but its listing is unquestionable.

I understand that my connection to the category I am interested in could bias my decisions but ODP is surely aiming to be a comprehensive categorisation of good sites. In this category it is not a good list of available QA systems and in this case my knowledge would certainly help. Sure, I can submit the other sites but maybe the editor does not appreciate the field and its difficulties and therefore the sites fail on some kind of quality test, I don't know. Like I say these QA systems do not necessarily always get the answer right so depending on your question there is plenty of scope for being very unimpressed.

On another note and I am certainly not suggesting this is the case, but how does the ODP prevent an editor affiliated with a commercial site blocking the listing of other commercial and non-commerical sites if they are somewhat obscure and can be rejected without to much problem? Especially for a category which is small like this one and where clearly the editors are not aware of other applicable sites?

While I'm at it I'll ask another question: my QA system on the web accepts input in English, Japanese, Chinese, Russian and Swedish (those 5 at the moment with more expected); the metasearch category is available in several languages including Japanese and Russian so can I justifiably submit my site to these language-specific categories as well?

The whole of Internet: Searching is heavily spammed.

Because metasearch engines serve up searches from other sources, they are comparatively easy to construct. Many are offered to the category which are almost carbon copies of each other. To quote the ODP Guidelines, we are interested in listing sites which offer

Original, unique and valuable informational content that contributes something unique to the category's subject.

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So in metasearch, we look for added value. We look for something different from what is already listed. Very few of the sites suggested are listed.

That does not mean that your site has been rejected. There is quite a pile of suggestions waiting and your site is most likely among them. But in the search field a site which attracts attention from the search experts is likely to be noticed and listed faster than one more addition to the pile of unreviewed.

Personally I feel that a non-commercial cousin of Brainboost would be well worth a look. But I can't say when an editor will get around to looking.

I've had a similar problem.

My site used to be on the directory, though I did not realize it because I either didn't post it or I forgot posting it. I got a new address a couple years ago that I've been using but the directory never got updated, and around two months ago the old address was shut down. Because the address was shut down, the site was removed from DMOZ, even though when I found out it was still in the system and searchable. It was just removed from its home and uneditable to give it the new address. Now it is gone, and I've tried three times in the last month or so to get it back up on its new address. With nothing happening.

I volunteered to become editor of the directory I found it really belonged in, and suggested two VERY major sites in the directory that should belong but don't. Major official sites for the subject in question. But I was turned down and I still see no action on anything.

How do I go about getting my site relisted, and getting the others that really should be there on there as well?

How do I go about getting my site relisted, and getting the others that really should be there on there as well?

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Your site: submit once to the single best category.

Other quality sites: submit once to the single best category.

After that, do nothing else, You have done all that you can and should do.

Ok...yeah...I didn't know there was a FAQ. Read it.

I feel a bit dumb now.

I've just been bloody desperate to get my site BACK on the directory. I've lost a third of my hits in two months because it got dropped and that rather annoys me to no end...

I will see about submitting the other two sites as well since I guess suggesting them in my app is not considered submission.

Have a good one and thanks for the very quick response.

jeanmanco said:

The whole of Internet: Searching is heavily spammed.

So in metasearch, we look for added value. We look for something different from what is already listed. Very few of the sites suggested are listed.

That does not mean that your site has been rejected. There is quite a pile of suggestions waiting and your site is most likely among them. But in the search field a site which attracts attention from the search experts is likely to be noticed and listed faster than one more addition to the pile of unreviewed.

Personally I feel that a non-commercial cousin of Brainboost would be well worth a look. But I can't say when an editor will get around to looking.

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Thanks for your feedback. I would have thought this increases the need for more editors but I understand now that ODP's emphasis is on quality rather than speed of updating the directory or its coverage.

I am a little perturbed that you say that only sites that are different to those already listed will be considered. Doesn't that mean the first site of a kind to be listed is set for life and competitors/pretenders are doomed?

Doesn't that mean the first site of a kind to be listed is set for life and competitors/pretenders are doomed?

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That may be the case, but it may not. Let's look at three fictional examples:

a. Mr Jones sets up a shoe shop in Cobblers, Nowhereland. He has a website created called LastandFirst. We list it. Mr Smith then sets up a shoe shop in Cobblers, Nowhereland. He has a website called Smith's Shoes. We list it. These are two separate bricks-and-mortar businesses, selling a different range of shoes. In real life they are competitors. But each website has unique content.

b. Herr Hoffman devises software that creates a metasearch engine. He displays the result on his own site and offers it to others to put metasearch on their sites. We list his site. Then we get a flood of submissions to the metasearch category of sites using his software. The search results are exactly the same. The search options are exactly the same. Only the design varies. Would we list them all? No. It would not benefit our users.

c. Dr F. writes a paper on the great K---- famine, arguing that the whole thing was the fault of the government of the day. We list it. Dr T. writes a paper on the great K---- famine, which dismisses all of Dr F.'s ideas in terribly polite language. We list it. They are rival academics, who never agree. All the better for the history students searching for information on said famine, for they are getting different points of view.

>I would have thought this increases the need for more editors...

You think WEBMASTER desire for a listing has anything at all to do with ODP needs?

But it doesn't. It doesn't matter how many webmasters want whatever. What matters is how many SURFERS want MORE whatever. And that's where the editors are "assigned." How assigned? That's the clever bit. SURFERS who want more of something, assign THEMSELVES to review that kind of thing. That's why webmasters don't count, and that's how surfers do.

hutcheson said:

>I would have thought this increases the need for more editors...

You think WEBMASTER desire for a listing has anything at all to do with ODP needs?

But it doesn't. It doesn't matter how many webmasters want whatever. What matters is how many SURFERS want MORE whatever. And that's where the editors are "assigned." How assigned? That's the clever bit. SURFERS who want more of something, assign THEMSELVES to review that kind of thing. That's why webmasters don't count, and that's how surfers do.

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Hang on a sec. I don't think you understood what I was saying. Given the high volume of requests/spam for listings in the internet search category that jeanmanco referred to I thought that would justify a larger number of editors to process them.

You say it's the surfers who should be deciding by becoming editors. I agree. But doesn't the lag time for processing these sites suggest there aren't enough willing to do so? So your high ideal isn't working?

To be honest I don't care whether I'm an editor or not. But it seems like you're undermanned esp. in this category and I was offering to help out. I don't consider myself a webmaster so much as a university researcher in this field. As a researcher I want to see *all* QA sites listed so the technology and state-of-the-art can be compared. Now someone's going to tell me ".. that is not the aim of the ODP.." but it seems honourable enough to me.

Anyway, I thought I would be doing the QA community, students of AI, NLP, QA, search etc. and your beloved average surfers a favour by searching for and listing additional interesting QA sites not just my own. Maybe you're not aware but a fair proportion of the sites I'm referring to are mentioned initially only in academic papers on the subject. So tell me, how is your average surfer going to find these sites in the first place? (Maybe the quality of the sites does not meet that required of ODP but that's a separate issue.)

It seems there's a vicious circle that I've noticed in other communities taking place here too. It's hard to get listed unless you're already reasonably well-known i.e. listed somewhere else or proficient with seo. Feel free to set me straight.

Let me explain why new editors are generally not accepted in categories with high volume of spam. The knowledge of efficiently identifying spam is a critical asset for an editor. New editors need to learn the tools to recognize spam and familiarize them self with the proper disposal protocol. It is much more productive to gain this knowledge in a comparatively spam free environment, where mistakes can be corrected with minimal interruption. Also correct implementation of editorial guidelines can be learned with much less misunderstanding than otherwise.

It's hard to get listed unless you're already reasonably well-known i.e. listed somewhere else or proficient with seo.

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I don't think so (but I could be wrong).

I do believe that SEO is a handicap, rather than an advantage, because most SEO is diametrically opposed to how the ODP works.

I also believe that the vast majority of new editors are, themselves, unknown in the industry.

There is, in my opinion, a constant level of concern that spammers will get in and only promote their clients or their point of view. That is not helpful to the directory. Case in point: I am a member of a particular political party and I ahve strongly held beliefs. Yet, I edit in regional, thus I have to put my partisan political beliefs aside and give office seekers and holders from the other parties listings with descriptins that are just as complete, and balanced as I do for my own party's candidates and office holders. Do I hate doing it, absolutely. But it is something that I have to do (even though I am yelling at the monitor, calling the opposition candidate unprintable names, the entire time I am doing so). I also ahve to be able to legitimately judge when a candidate's web site (from any party) does not meet our editorial guidelines, and I am expected to be scrupulous in doing so. Like most experiecned editors, I probably give the other side a fraction of a break, in the name of fairness.

Of course, I am just using politics as an example. In commercial websites, one has to not just list competitors who suggest their own sites, but also be able to seek out and find competitor websites that have not been suggested. and also be able to discern when a site is not listable, regardless of the ownership.

There is also another aspect to all of this that seemingly defies logic: volume.

In evaluating new editors, the volume of suggestions or the amount of spam are actually reasons not to approve a new editor. If you think of helping a new editor get starting in the same context as nurturing a child, some of our policies make sense. You don't let a toddler cross the street alone, no matter how badly you want to get across, or how thin the traffic appears. We don't turn inexperienced editors on to spammy or high volume cats until they have the experience to be able to handle and cope with what they are getting. This is not just something that happens to new editors. I have more than 15,000 ODP edits, yet just like you, I must apply for any new category i wish to edit, I must supply three URLs, and unlike you, my entire editing history is open to review. If I'm not doing a good job with what I have, it is hard to get more. There is a nice urban myth within the ODP that says: don't apply for categories that are significantly larger than your total number of edits. It is just a myth, since there is no formal rule to that effect, but it is a good piece of advice, nonetheless.

Unless the letter your received clearly discouraged you from trying again, keep on trying. Many highly successful editors have 4, 5, 6 applications turned down until they finally got in -- and in many cases they got into a very small regional subcategory of minor interest to them, and used it as a stepping stone to become experienced, successful editors.

>It's hard to get listed unless you're already reasonably well-known i.e. listed somewhere else or proficient with seo.

Nonsense. There are many professional SEOs and well-known people who are having just as much trouble as you are -- no matter how much trouble you're having.

What's the reality? It really helps to be providing information that interests surfers. And it also really helps for that information to be OBVIOUSLY unique (that is, the surfer can see AT A GLANCE that this site is something different.) A site that is unique but neither particularly interesting nor blatantly unique is likely to wait longer for surfers to visit.

This seems such an obvious explanation, and it is so obviously true in any case, that I am amazed so many people leap past it to illogical, improbable, and downright outre theories.

hutcheson said:

>It's hard to get listed unless you're already reasonably well-known i.e. listed somewhere else or proficient with seo.

Nonsense. There are many professional SEOs and well-known people who are having just as much trouble as you are -- no matter how much trouble you're having.

What's the reality? It really helps to be providing information that interests surfers. And it also really helps for that information to be OBVIOUSLY unique (that is, the surfer can see AT A GLANCE that this site is something different.) A site that is unique but neither particularly interesting nor blatantly unique is likely to wait longer for surfers to visit.

This seems such an obvious explanation, and it is so obviously true in any case, that I am amazed so many people leap past it to illogical, improbable, and downright outre theories.

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You are very sure of yourself! Since you are a moderator and you replied to my post I trust you read my previous posts referring specifically to metasearch and question answering sites. In this context I think your comments were irrelevant. There is no difference AT A GLANCE between most search engine main pages and actually there are often no obvious differences even between the results output by, say, msnsearch.com and google.com but ODP has no problem listing either and rightly so. Moreover, google's page is a particularly good example since it intentionally has almost zero information content on it so unless you had other information about the site e.g. from many referrals, it would be difficult to know what to do with it. So kindly stick to the point and please don't assume that you can apply the same selection criteria to all sites.

spectregunner said:

We don't turn inexperienced editors on to spammy or high volume cats until they have the experience to be able to handle and cope with what they are getting. This is not just something that happens to new editors. I have more than 15,000 ODP edits, yet just like you, I must apply for any new category i wish to edit, I must supply three URLs, and unlike you, my entire editing history is open to review. If I'm not doing a good job with what I have, it is hard to get more. There is a nice urban myth within the ODP that says: don't apply for categories that are significantly larger than your total number of edits. It is just a myth, since there is no formal rule to that effect, but it is a good piece of advice, nonetheless.

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The thought of doing that many edits is unappealing so I am probably not cut out to be an editor. I merely thought I was in a good position to find question answering sites that were relevant and add them to the list and also to judge whether a submitted site was appropriate or not. I am starting to see now that this is probably not sufficient.

spectregunner said:

Unless the letter your received clearly discouraged you from trying again, keep on trying. Many highly successful editors have 4, 5, 6 applications turned down until they finally got in -- and in many cases they got into a very small regional subcategory of minor interest to them, and used it as a stepping stone to become experienced, successful editors.

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Well the letter was blank hence this discussion, in part. It's essentially the same frustration as with submitting a site and then twiddling your thumbs to see whether it might appear one day or whether it's already been deleted from the list and will never appear.

I'm not interested in being an editor for the sake of being an editor so maybe this alone makes me unsuitable. And for this reason I won't apply for a regional subcategory. I have an interest and knowledge in the category I was applying for and thought this would be useful and helpful to ODP. During this discussion I have been disabused of this idea since that's not what ODP is looking for. I still find it a bit odd but the volume/spam issue is understandable and I guess I can see why this is sufficient reason for rejection. However, isn't there scope for combining an experienced editor with an expert in the field (who is not necessarily an experienced editor)?