Site Status of http://www.redgoldfish.co.uk

Dear sirs,

I would be very pleased to receive any information regarding the status of our Job website:-
http://www.redgoldfish.co.uk.

The site has been submitted to:-
http://www.dmoz.org/Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Employment/Job_Search/

Our description is simply:-
Job search portal and careers information service. Jobs-by-email service

We have been working on the site for over three years and have be awaiting review of our site to be listed by a DMOZ editor for over six months now. We truely would value a reply from an editor as we have been actively working hard building on the site content. The home page did get a Google page rank 5 at the last review but its still not fully indexed yet by the google bot.

We cant see any reason for the site not to be included within the DMOZ directory as we believe that we have put the request into the correct category and the site content is of quality that would be of interest to internet users looking in the directory for a UK Job_search site.

Kind Regards

Richard Clarke
Director Redgoldfish Limited

Your site suggestion is waiting for review in the category you indicate. There is no way to predict when that will happen, but if you haven't seen your site listed in 6 months' time you are welcome back for another status check. Thank you!

Dear nea,

Thanks for your reply. Its very much appreciated. As a point of interest i did in fact request to become an editor of DMOZ for the section i am awaiting submission into.

I had a reply to the effect that an editor was already appointed to the section and to re-apply for another section. On the basis that ive been waiting 6 months so far and you suggest that if i havent heard anything within another 6 months to check again, in your own opinion dont you think that that is an obscene amount of time for blue chip website to be waiting for an entry into the directory?.

Furthermore, if the editor of this section is under so much work pressure that it may take them up to two years to get around to looking at our entry i would have thought that DMOZ would welcome us being another editor of the same section which on the face of it would halve the workload!

Your thoughts are appreciated, im sure you can understand how frustrating it is just waiting and waiting not even knowing if your submission will be accepted after you have waited years!

Kind Regards

Richard Clarke

dont you think that that is an obscene amount of time

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No.

How long until my site will be reviewed?

Thanks for your reply.

Im sure you can fully understand why webmasters think that its odd that it can take this length of time.

As we have said, we are more than happy to work as an editors to assist building this directory. Currently 88 web sites are listed in the section we have requested an entry into and its looking like 12 months before we even get a review.

We are sure we could review sites in this section at a faster rate that 2 years, which does make us feel that certain sections must carry a time limit or something before they are even considered for inclusion.

Your thoughts on this will certainly be of interest

OK, here are some thoughts:

We are not a listing service for webmasters. Certainly we accept URL suggestions for the outside, but make absolutely no commitment as to when we will look at them. Currently, based up factors that include: the category, phase of the moon, and the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, review times take from a few hours to more than two years.

Our global team of volunteer editors make thousands of edits every single day (more on weekends and holidays) in an ongoing effort to produce the best human edited directory on the planet.

How long it takes for us to look at a given suggestion is not relvant to us. Many editors wish that the entire submission/suggestion process be closed down, feeling that the entire process detracts from our ability to build a great directory, and leads to false expectations that we are immediately going to jump on a given suggestion, and this is simply not the case.

There is no "time limit" or any such nonsense that imposes a set delay on a given category. Let me give you a real-life example of how this editing stuff works.

I have a number of categories where I have been given permission to edit. Permission, not exclusive permission, but permission. Ther are a minimum of 200 eidtors who also have permission to edit in any category where I have permission. One of the places I can edit is in a given State within the U.S. Currently I am engaged in a top-to-bottom sweep of that state. I'm working in Localities and have gotten to the letter "G". After I have completed "Z" in a month or so, I'll take on Counties and Metro Areas, then Regions. When I am finished, every unreviewed site in the state will have been looked at. Not listed, looked at. Some will be moved because they were missubmitted. If they are moved to where I haven't edited yet, they'll get looked at again befor the end of the year. If they get moved to a letter that I have alreadly looked at, they'll get looked at someday. I don't know when. After I have finished doing this state, there is an aviation-related category where I will probably go and do the same thing (some of those suggestions have been waiting more than two years). After that -- I don't know, I'll go edit someplace where I will gain a feeling of accomplishment. Maybe in Regional, maybe in Business, maybe in Society. Then again, maybe I will stop after the letter "G" because I am bored and I'll take a few months off from editing, or I'll just chase updates or bad URLs or sites that I'd previously noted were under construction.

And, would you like to know the wonderful thing about this work pattern of mine? No one within ODP, not a single person, has the right to criticize where I choose to turn my attention on a given day/hour/minute. The reason fro this is simple: we cherish every single edit, and no addition is fundamentally more important than any other addition.

Think about this for a minute. The poor little guy who has some nifty information about Peruvian Land Crabs on his Tripod free web site has just as much chance of being the next site listed as does the "Suit" from MegaCorp with its array of servers and entire platoons of webmasters/programmers. Now the guy with the Land Crab website thinks this is wonder, the guy from MegaCorp thinks it suchsk, and we are oblivious to it all because we are focused on finding the next site with really unique content -- regardless of where it came from.

There you go. You wanted thoughts, which you got, and now my boss wants me to get back to work and do something productive, which he will get, right after I go to the bathroom. Priorities.

And I add - that part of the problem, is that there is a totally misguided understanding that the longer a site is "waiting" the more important it is to be listed.

This is in fact the DMOZ bakery, where it's not take a number and pick up your bagel.

We serve customers their baked goods in a totally unpredictable fashion.

Some days, we serve the good looking ones first. some days the handicapped get served first, on occasion we serve customers in order of height and somedays we just ignore all the customers in the store and give away rumballs to anyone on the street who looks hungry.

That category is way too large and too spammy for a trainee by the way. There's no way I'd grant it to an unseasoned editor.

>I had a reply to the effect that an editor was already appointed to the section and to re-apply for another section.

No, you didn't. Go back and re-read that e-mail, considering Jim's insight into the approval process, and see whether those words might actually convey another meaning than your initial apprehension of them.

My thanks to Spectregunner for the detailed reply and to bobrat, Jim Noble and hutcheson for your time afforded in replying to my posts also.

Im more understanding now of this process so appreciate your comments.

So "based up factors that include: the category, phase of the moon, and the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, review times take from a few hours to more than two years" its a total lottery as to when, If the site gets listed - On that note will obviously have to let events take their natural cause. "How does the song go now, what will be, will be..."

As many other webmasters visit this forum im sure that the the posts here will give others some very useful insight into how the directory gets updated.
Furthermore i will re-apply to become an editor of another section as im sure i can add value to the ODP.

For the information of Hutcheson, i have re-read the reply again. The reply i got following my request to become an editor was as follows:-

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dear Richard Clarke,

Thank you for your interest in becoming an Open Directory Project editor!
Although we would like you to join us as a volunteer editor, you have
chosen a category that is already well represented, or is broader than
we typically assign to a new editor. We would encourage you to re-apply
for a category that has fewer editors or is smaller in scope, in order
to increase your chances of being accepted.

Feel free to reapply by submitting an application in another area.
If you wish to re-apply, you must fill out another application.
Please do not reply to this email.

Regards,
The Open Directory Project

Additional reviewer comments:

With it's pool awaiting review, the category is too large for a trainee.

If you try again, please go for a category of up to around 50 listings - your home town or one of its subcategories maybe. Also, pay more attention to spelling and punctuation. The descriptions you suggested for your candidate URLs were much better than most applicants', but you'd still benefit by studying our editor guidelines.

BTW, http://www.redgoldfish.co.uk is awaiting review in that category. Resubmission is not required and can be counter-productive because it replaces any earlier one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I took this reply to mean:-

1. If you become an ODP editor you would be a trainee. The category is to large for a trainee.

2. The category is already well represented (I take this to mean that an editor or editors are already appointed to it).

3. Re-apply for a category with less than 50 listing (the section i applied for has 88)

4. Watch all spelling and punctuation (fair enough, its a quality directory being established)

5. Dont re-submit your entry as it would be counter productive

If im missing something here and not understanding this reply fully please advise. My original comment " I had a reply to the effect that an editor was already appointed to the section and to re-apply for another section" was trying to sum up the entire reply.

Are you suggesting that if i was say an editor of a smaller section, gained experience with ODP and then re-applied for this section that its possible that i could later become another editor of this section along with other editors working on it?

Interested in your reply

Are you suggesting that if i was say an editor of a smaller section, gained experience with ODP and then re-applied for this section that its possible that i could later become another editor of this section along with other editors working on it?

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That is exactly how it works.

Imagine you are 16 and just received your license to operate a motor vehicle.

There is a small errand to be run and, naturally, you volunteer because it means you get to drive.

Which car will your patents let you take:

Dad's Porsche Turbo.
Mom's BMW sedan.
The 1984 Dodge Aries Station Wagon.

Thanks,

Fully understand the position. Good luck with your continued work in building this directory.

P.S

I take it that the "Dodge Aries station waggon" is a heap of junk like our "UK Mini" ! The Dodge Waggon however would be a superb first car in the UK IMO and very trendy to boot.

Yes, you got the gist correctly the second time around.

Another part, which seems obvious to me but apparently isn't generally so, is that this is a list of the most common rejection reasons. ANY ONE OF THEM (or any combination) may apply. But there are very few cases where all of them apply.

It says a category EITHER is too large OR has too many editors already. Between the two cases, the former is by far the most common, and the latter is very rare. But many people seem to think both must have been intended. If we had intended to say that, we'd have said, "the category is too large for a new editor AND has too many editors already anyway."

When you knock back an entry for what ever reason, having finally go around to looking at it, do you say anything to the webmaster that sent it in or is it policy that you dont reply?.

We don't reply. It is highly counterproductive.

Is it possible to establish if the entry i have put forward months ago would be agreed or not when it gets reviewed?.

I genuinely think that for a UK Job Portal i have selected the correct area of the directory, which i believe is the right place to list and have selected a correct description. This however is obviously unconfimred so i could be just wasting two years of my time if the entry has been knocked back.

I ask this because another Job board in another sector that i know had also got Zero attention from a DMOZ editor in this same list (which has 88 listings in it and has remained this way for a long time) and they put their site forward for another category (which was frankly not as relevant) and Bingo they find the site listed within about 3 days!

Im seriously thinking now about pushing the entry into other areas of the directory, that might not be as relevant but more likely to get some attention

This idea is unlikely to go down well with quality editors who are active and post here i guess, but look at from our business point of view, many other database directories feed off DMOZ if we never list in DMOZ we dont feature with them either

Thoughts anyone?

Is it possible to establish if the entry i have put forward months ago would be agreed or not when it gets reviewed?

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What you are asking for us to do is to pre-review your site. We absolutely will not do that. It will get reviewed when it gets reviewed, by whichever of the nearly 10,000 active editors reviews it.

If we were some sort of webmaster listing service, where you insert a website URL in one end and an editor spits a review out the other end, then comparing how long it took Website A versus Website B to be reviewed would be relevant. However, we are not a website listing service, we are a directory that happens to accept suggestions from the general public. We make no commitment as to when we will look at a given suggestion, only that we will eventually look at it.

Your question would also have relevancy if editors were required to work the submission pool in a particular manner, which they are not. Heck, editors are not even required to work the submission pool. What does that mean? If, for example, I decide to edit in a given category today, I have a lot of options:
-- sort the submission pool by submission date
-- sort the submission pool by URL
-- sort the submission pool by submitted title
-- ignore the submission pool and go off to find sites on my own.
-- ignore the submission pool and focus on improving the descriptions of currently listed sites.
-- ignore the submission pool and focus my energies on making sure there are no bad URLs, sites under construction or p0rn links.
-- eyeball the submission pool and weed out the obvious duplicate submissions, but not list anything.
-- eyeball the submission pool and cherry-pick the sites for review that have been submitted with compliant titles and descriptions.
-- eyeball the submission pool, tell myself "Aw, screw it!" and go off to another category.

There are dozens of other editing options for any editor, these are just some of the most common.

Im seriously thinking now about pushing the entry into other areas of the directory, that might not be as relevant but more likely to get some attention

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Yes, you may get attention -- you may also get flagged in an manner that is counterproductive to ever getting listed. Your statement also assumes facts that are not in evidence. Unless you have access to the editor notes, you have no way of knowing that this "other site" you mention had received editor attention. For all you know the original submission did received editor attention -- it could have been deleted, moved, flagged/tagged, etc. With some 4.5 millin sites in the directory, most anything is possible, but anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal.

Understand

Is it possible for me to email the editor of the section that im trying to get listed in?

Sure, you can e-mail anyone that you wish. Just don't expect a reply. Editors are strongly advised not to reply to e-mails from submitters.

Also, I'm not sure you'll be accomlishing anything. Any given category can be edited by any of the editors who are named there, any editors directly upward in the tree, or any of the more than 200 editors with directory-wide editing rights. So, if you send Editor X an e-mail, you'll probably never get a reply and you'll never know if that editor is ever going to edit in that cat again. Heck, that editor may not know when/if he or she is ever going to edit there again.

As an aside, I do hope that you followed up on your editor application. As I go back and re-read the e-mail you posted, I come away with a pretty clear impression that you are being encouraged to reapply for something further down in the tree -- a smaller category where you can safely learn and get your legs under you. If you do that, and get accepted, you may just get addicted to the editing process, and in very little time at all you'll have more cats than you can possibly deal with (and loving every minute of it).

Spectregunner,

I did exactly that and applied for a small section elsewhere - im awaiting a reply. Its been a few weeks. I will let you know how it works out. I know i can give some great support to assist in building DMOZ further.

Meanwhile regarding my own site, i made the mistake of resubmitting the site a short while back so as you know the sites further back now in the pile anyway. In any event ive given up on the editors for my section anyway. I think close on a year is a long time to get listed.

Only two editors are listed for the section, i made contact with both of them, the one is involved in a web company i just dont think they have the time for DMOZ now and they claim the pool has loads in it anyway, awaiting review and they wont get around to it. They have enough to do in their full time job currently. The other didnt reply to me at all, so have no idea what they think or even if they are still interested in DMOZ.

On the basis that the last time an editor looked at this section was 23rd August and on the basis that the entry numbers didnt change following that visit i can only assume that i must be trying to get my site listed in a dead area of DMOZ that has perhaps got outdated editors that are no longer interested or have moved on from the directory but are still showing as editors for the section.

Dam shame to be honest, but rather than let new editors start to update the section it just gets left to fester!

At the current rate, IF i get to become an editor, i think i have more chance of going up the tree over the next few years and end up editing the section myself than waiting for either of the two appointed editors to the section to act!