Site submission problems of mu-host.com

Hello,

I have on numerous occasions attempted to submit a site to the Games -> Online -> MUDs -> Hosting category, but to no avail. Today I got a bit annoyed and attempted to call Netscape/AOL about this issue and they referred to this forum, hopefully I can get a MEANINGFUL response here. The site I've attempted to submit is http://mu-host.com/

I understand that the editors of this volunteer-driven project do have lots of work on the directory aside from their regular day jobs, but I would consider my site submission to be decent enough to dignify just a tiny answer of denial, indifference, or just a plain "go away" from one of the editors of this category. But, alas, such is not my fortune.

I have also applied for an editor position of this category on several occasions, but have not even received a denial. That shouldn't be too hard either, one would think. I get lots of email too, tons of it, but if I write something like this on the first page of my volunteer project application: "We make every effort to accept people who will add value to the directory and the community, however, we don't accept all applications. You may reapply if your application is denied." I make sure to actually DENY the application as well. No answer does not classify as denial.

My suggestion is to change that page to explicitly state that when applying, you will get NO response from DMOZ when you are supposedly denied.

I would like to speak with the person in charge of the http://www.dmoz.org/Games/Online/MUDs/Hosting/ category, and failing this, with one of the senior editors of DMOZ about this, because it is just plain pathetic that I can't even get a response from my site submittal or my application to become an editor.

Yes, I am irritated, and it shows in my writing, but, I bear no ill will towards anybody with DMOZ, I am just a bit frustrated after having tried the same process over and over again, following your guidelines. If I have somehow failed this, I'd like to know where I failed, so I can amend this.

Warm Regards,
Torgny

I think you first should read our FAQ. It will explain a lot.

First of all what you call "submit" is called "suggest" by DMOZ. This means you can only suggest a site to us, we promise only to look at all suggestions when time comes (this can be within several days or after a few years, we can't predict). You will never receive any confirmation when we have looked at your site. If it is listable it will show in the directory, that's all. We also do not allow questions about the status of your suggestion.

When you apply to become an editor you will first receive an email you will have to answer to. If you didn't answer the mail your application will never be visable. An application can only be handled by a special kind of editors called Meta. They will look at you application, normaly within a few hours to a few weeks (but in some circumstances it can take a little longer). In almost all situations a mail will be send. It is known that some mailproviders filter the rejection mails as spam.

I have on numerous occasions attempted to submit a site to the Games -> Online -> MUDs -> Hosting category, but to no avail.

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And what makes you think the attempts have been unsuccessful? Are you getting error messages or anything?

I would consider my site submission to be decent enough to dignify just a tiny answer of denial, indifference

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As you can read in other threads here the only feedback you will get is appearance of the site in the directory if it is reviewed and deemed listable. When that might happen is in the lap of the Gods. Again the reasons for that are given a dozens of times a week on this site.

I have also applied for an editor position of this category on several occasions, but have not even received a denial.

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Have you tried the section on this forum for such feedback? Try it.

I would like to speak with the person in charge of the http://www.dmoz.org/Games/Online/MUDs/Hosting/ category

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That's not the way it works. The editor app can be dealt with here in the right forum for that question, the submission you will never get feedback on unless it is listed. But stop trying to submit your site. All that does is overwrite an existing submission and it can delay it, especially if you submit copies with bad urls. Hint.

oneeye said:

And what makes you think the attempts have been unsuccessful? Are you getting error messages or anything?

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Nope. No error messages. At least here I get a response, kudos for that. And two of them, in less than 15 minutes.

oneeye said:

As you can read in other threads here the only feedback you will get is appearance of the site in the directory if it is reviewed and deemed listable. When that might happen is in the lap of the Gods. Again the reasons for that are given a dozens of times a week on this site.

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I am aware of that, but I cannot see why my site would be turned down three times, in about just as many years. I would like a motivation as to why it is turned down. Either the category is run by one of my competitors, or somebody just doesn't like me at all. *smells armpit and checks breath*

oneeye said:

That's not the way it works. The editor app can be dealt with here in the right forum for that question, the submission you will never get feedback on unless it is listed. But stop trying to submit your site. All that does is overwrite an existing submission and it can delay it, especially if you submit copies with bad urls. Hint.

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As I stated above, I think I have made tops 3 attempts to submit the site, with years in-between. I've submitted other of my sites that have been accepted/added within months or even weeks, so a year is a bit long I'd say. Hint taken, no need to patronize, and I haven't submitted any bad URLs.

I wasn't overly concerned about my editor application, since that was quite recent, I was more concerned about my site suggestion, since it's been ignored so far, and I cannot understand why.

The following discrepancies are present in that category right now:

http://www.crodo.com/ leads to an empty directory
http://tinymush.sourceforge.net/ is not a host, it's a project page for a mud codebase (they only have information and downloads on TinyMush it appears)

Hence my application to become an editor. It's a sufficiently small enough category for me to actually check in with these guys and ask them if their link is broken, or if they've changed their domain name, or what, wouldn't take more than 10 minutes out of my day. But, that's for another thread in another forum category, as you stated.

pvgool said:

I think you first should read our FAQ. It will explain a lot.

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Will read it over more carefully this time.

pvgool said:

First of all what you call "submit" is called "suggest" by DMOZ. This means you can only suggest a site to us, we promise only to look at all suggestions when time comes (this can be within several days or after a few years, we can't predict). You will never receive any confirmation when we have looked at your site. If it is listable it will show in the directory, that's all. We also do not allow questions about the status of your suggestion.

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I did not want a status report per se, I wanted to know why it has not been added after several years, being perfectly valid in relation to the other sites as far as descriptions, titles, and links goes, and since it is a very small category in itself, why the editor could not motivate why the link has not been added. I fully understand that that's not how DMOZ works, but, it doesn't prevent me from expressing my feeling, hopefully.

pvgool said:

When you apply to become an editor you will first receive an email you will have to answer to. If you didn't answer the mail your application will never be visable. An application can only be handled by a special kind of editors called Meta. They will look at you application, normaly within a few hours to a few weeks (but in some circumstances it can take a little longer). In almost all situations a mail will be send. It is known that some mailproviders filter the rejection mails as spam.

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I received an email with the content "To complete your application process, please reply to this message. This will confirm that we have your correct email address."

I replied to this message according to the instructions. I still have the email in the event that the receiving script cannot parse the prefixed "Re: " that my email client added in the subject, in that event I can resend it and edit the subject to remove the "Re: " part.

After or before that I received another email stating that I will be contacted when my application has been reviewed. This may be different from the last time I applied I think (the time I got no answer at all), so all looks good so far.

tbjers said:

I am aware of that, but I cannot see why my site would be turned down three times, in about just as many years. I would like a motivation as to why it is turned down. Either the category is run by one of my competitors, or somebody just doesn't like me at all. *smells armpit and checks breath*

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If a site is rejected we will never give a motivation (atleast not to any non-editor).
But why do you think it was rejected. Most probably it is still waiting review.


Errors in listing can be brought to our attention either through the "update listing" at the top of the category page at DMOZ or through our special thread here at R-Z http://resource-zone.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5453

I haven't submitted any bad URLs.

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Then why did I just remove 2 of them? Please, when you come here know that editors can check their facts before answering so dishonesty is not appreciated.

I cannot see why my site would be turned down three times

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What makes you think the site has been turned down?

I am aware of that, but I cannot see why my site would be turned down three times, in about just as many years. I would like a motivation as to why it is turned down. Either the category is run by one of my competitors, or somebody just doesn't like me at all.

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There are a couple of problems with this.

First, you do not know as a fact that your suggestion has been declined. Since we don't send out notices, there is no way for you to know (unless you were silly enough to knowingly subming noncompliant sites).

Second, a careful perusal of the FAQ shows that waits of 2, 3, and even 4 years is not uncommon.

The suggestion that the category is run by competitors is, without proof, funadmentally offensive. It is akin to us saying that all websmasters are dishonest scum.

Similarly, the tongue-in-cheek idea that it is personal simply does not float for several reasons:

1. No editor controls a category.
2. More than 200 different editors can edit in any given category.
3. There are 9,000+ active editors, so the odds of you finding the one editor who doesn't like you, and edits in the category where you are making your suggestions, is pretty remote (Hygene issues notwithstanding).

I did not want a status report per se, I wanted to know....

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We call that a status check.

oneeye said:

Then why did I just remove 2 of them? Please, when you come here know that editors can check their facts before answering so dishonesty is not appreciated.

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I am fully aware of that fact. And, which two sites that I had submitted did you just remove, by the by?

I am aware of that, but I cannot see why my site would be turned down three times, in about just as many years. I would like a motivation as to why it is turned down.

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We don't do status checks - so you can't tell if it has been turned down at any point, as it may not have been reviewed yet. Some categories may go years without any new attention because volunteers edit in their areas of interest.

Also if theoretically an editor did visit that category and review a couple of the longest waiting sites - yours would only show as being submitted at the date of your last submission - as your earlier ones would be overwritten - so resubmission is not really a good idea most of time. :-/

I've dealt with the 2 quality control issues you highlighted (thanks for flagging them). I moved the 2nd to the server software category where I think it fits better. The public side often takes a while to update though so the changes probably aren't visible yet.

Cheers

Andy

spectregunner said:

First, you do not know as a fact that your suggestion has been declined. Since we don't send out notices, there is no way for you to know (unless you were silly enough to knowingly subming noncompliant sites).

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No, I wasn't that silly I hope. And haven't been yet, I hope even more. Although, if there are submittals in my name, from one of my email addresses, I'd like the IP used to submit these, just to verify that I'm a complete idiot.

spectregunner said:

The suggestion that the category is run by competitors is, without proof, funadmentally offensive. It is akin to us saying that all websmasters are dishonest scum.

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If my question offended somebody in particular then I apologize. It was more of a Murphy's Law kind of speculation.

spectregunner said:

1. No editor controls a category.
2. More than 200 different editors can edit in any given category.
3. There are 9,000+ active editors, so the odds of you finding the one editor who doesn't like you, and edits in the category where you are making your suggestions, is pretty remote (Hygene issues notwithstanding).

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Well, my fears are removed. Thank you for explaining.

If my question offended somebody in particular then I apologize. It was more of a Murphy's Law kind of speculation.

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I'm sure it was not intentional on your part.

What happens all the time is that we get threads that essentially say:

My site was not listed in a timely manner
My competitor must be the editor
You editors are all crooks.


It gets very tiring, and tends to demoralize active editors who feel like their volunteerism is being equated with dishonesty.

andysands said:

I've dealt with the 2 quality control issues you highlighted (thanks for flagging them). I moved the 2nd to the server software category where I think it fits better. The public side often takes a while to update though so the changes probably aren't visible yet.

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Cool Andy! Sorry for bugging you guys on the forums like this. I've kept my eyes on that category for a while now, and not much have happened in it for a while (well, one or two sites in/out here and there I suppose, since, what, 2003? At least according to Way Back Machine (had to check, didn't want to appear dishonest by stating something that could possibly somehow be construed as a lie or false information).

It is possible, if you see little or no activity in a category, that suggestions simply haven't been reviewed yet. (It's also possible that lots of suggestions have been reviewed, and all were either moved elsewhere or rejected.)

You really can't tell anything from that.

In fact, there aren't any means of divination that work to predict or explicate editor activity. (Back when we did status checks, even psychics asked for them.) It's very likely many active editors couldn't tell you exactly why they reviewed the sites they did yesterday, or what they'll review tomorrow.

And, which two sites that I had submitted did you just remove, by the by?

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I didn't remove any "sites". I removed 2 bad urls (variations on the same one you mentioned above) submitted by you that were clogging up the pool of suggestions. Perhaps you made a mistake or, forgive me for being cynical as we meet so many dishonest submitters around here, perhaps it was an attempt to increase the chances. Let's say it was the former and you regret causing the additional work because if it was the latter you should know that it breaches the guidelines to make multiple submissions and the penalties can be severe. But in practical terms the only one you harm by making such mistakes is yourself.

Put it this way. If I go into a category to see what is waiting for review and I see multiple variations on the same URL then I will automatically think this guy is not following the guidelines, he is spamming. I will then deliberately give priority to everyone else who has submitted a suggestion and who has followed the guidelines. If I run out of time then that site with multiple variations on the URL will not get dealt with. And the chances of me returning to that category any time soon are more or less zero so you wait for the next editor who might be a couple of years away.

In this case by removing the bad variations, the ones that would never be listed, a bit of behind the scenes quality control, I have done you a big favour as their existence won't be a potential factor the next time an editor works on that category. That isn't to say they will look at the suggestions at all, or if they do they will pick your site to review, or if they review it they will list it. None of those things can be forecast. What can be forecast is that now is the time to cease attempting to submit the site because what you have been doing does nothing except perhaps delay the very thing you are trying to achieve.

Once you have submitted a site to DMOZ the best thing to do is forget about it, and if one day it gets listed that is a bonus you weren't expecting. Any other approach is doomed to cause frustration and irritation which no-one here can solve.

By the way, I have removed tens of thousands of duplicate submissions over the years and not once has malicious action by a competitor been apparent. 9 times out of 10 is it the owners spamming and the 10th time it is genuine error or misunderstanding. We have agreed you would be in the 1 in 10 have we not?

oneeye said:

By the way, I have removed tens of thousands of duplicate submissions over the years and not once has malicious action by a competitor been apparent. 9 times out of 10 is it the owners spamming and the 10th time it is genuine error or misunderstanding. We have agreed you would be in the 1 in 10 have we not?

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Yes, twice spammed is enough for me. I'll be in the 1 in 3 instead. Glad you've cleared all this up for me, thanks for taking your time to educate me on the workings of DMOZ, a topic quite foggy for me.