Status of http://www.1sourcecomponents.com

Please let me know the status of http://www.1sourcecomponents.com, submitted to:

http://dmoz.org/Business/Electronics_and_Electrical/Components/Wholesale_and_Distribution/

Thanks.

Why won't anyone ever respond to my inquiries?

I applied a year ago, got no response.

I asked the editor for the status 6 months ago, got no response.

Now I asked for help in this forum 2 weeks ago and no response yet.

I have read the rules and followed them to the best of my knowledge and ability.

Maybe DMOZ is just insanely busy, or there is a lack of editors (more likely since my category hasn't grown much in the past year).

You would think there would be an automated status check system!

Am I not supposed to be frustrated at this point?

Does it do any good for me to write this?

The site is waiting there for review.

There will be no automated status check system, because that forms no part of the mission of the project -- and does not in any way serve the intended beneficiaries of the project. In addition, it would be susceptible to abuse that would cause significant aid to a large group of people who are, we know, seeking to destroy the project for their own malicious purposes. Against those problems, the advantages of assuaging casual curiosity looms pretty infinitesimally small. (Why is this question of no significance? Because there is no single action that an honest person would or could do differently based on the information! The same, unfortunately, cannot be said of spammers.)

Editors will almost never respond to e-mail. That is our strong recommendation, and anyone who has on occasion ignored that recommendation (as I have) know VERY well (as I do) why that is the recommendation. Lots of people get not just frustrated but angry and violent when they don't hear what they want to hear. It is simply not safe for editors to respond, except in a patrolled area (such as the forum.) I hate it, but that's the world we live in, and we have to base our actions on the real world.

Hutcheson,

Thanks for the response. It's nice to at least get some sort of response.

I can understand the issues you mentioned.

It's just hard to believe that it could take so long to get reviewed.

I just checked my original submission which I saved in an email, and it is actually over a year old! (January 7, 2004)

The purpose of knowing the status would be to know whether it has been rejected, lost, or ever made it into the system in the first place so the applicant can know whether to resubmit, make a change, contact the editor, or forget about it and move on.

I thought the category editor contact form on dmoz.org meant that editors respond. I didn't know it was one-way communication. While I understand that there are many maniacs out there, I would think a non-personal response might mitigate the dangers. I.e. the "system" sends from a non-receiving account with no personal contact info. But I don't know the inner workings of the dmoz organization, so maybe I'm way off.

It sounds like you are saying that there are people who would freak out if they received a rejection notice. And that may be true. However, I would think those same people might freak out by getting no response. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning.

It's just hard to believe that it could take so long to get reviewed.

Click to expand...

We are volunteers on a project to catalog unique content on the Internet, not a listing service. We accept suggestions from the public but they get pooled with all the stuff we find independently. For us, whether a site is listed in a day, a year, or ten years isn't really important, if it is unique we'll capture it eventually, at our own pace. People have the wrong idea that we exist to serve as a commercial website promotion service with service levels, etc - it simply ain't so and is fundamentally opposite to our entire concept.

The purpose of knowing the status would be to know whether it has been rejected, lost, or ever made it into the system in the first place so the applicant can know whether to resubmit

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That's it. Make a change or contact the editor, no. Making changes to a site to make it listable rarely if ever works. Either a site and its owner are on the same wavelength as us when it comes to listability, or they aren't. Leopards and spots and all that.

I didn't know it was one-way communication.

Click to expand...

Sad but increasingly true, experience dictates. And editors never speak for DMOZ, only express personal opinions in external communications so an email from DMOZ would tend to make a communication look official which it can't do. And submitters don't just stop at using official DMOZ feedback - editors have been tracked down and harrassed at work, on the phone, and at home. Best policy is to ignore any and all communications from the start.

I bite the bullet here several times a day sometimes and say sorry, rejected. Take a look at some of the other threads where that message has gone out and the flames and insults and threats of legal action that come out. At the same time I might have rejected 30 or more sites myself in the course of editing on the same day but not communicating that means potentially 30 less sets of flames, insults, threats, etc. If they're freaking about not knowing then at least they are giving their spouse, dog, neighbour, postman grief, not us.

Ahoy one-eye matey! Congrats on the award for being long-winded. And thanks for the input.

"For us, whether a site is listed in a day, a year, or ten years isn't really important, if it is unique we'll capture it eventually, at our own pace. People have the wrong idea that we exist to serve as a commercial website promotion service with service levels, etc - it simply ain't so and is fundamentally opposite to our entire concept."

I know I'm stating the obvious here, but since you raised the issue: Freshness is important on the rapidly changing web. A year or ten years from now the site may no longer exist. In fact, not being listed may hasten the demise of a site.

I was not aware of the non-commercial nature of the project. However, the wrong idea is widely propagated on the web. We are told we better get in Open Directory if we want to be taken seriously, e.g. by Google (pagerank, etc). Many small companies live or die by Google traffic, so this can cause a real sense of anxiety about one's livelihood when you have trouble getting listed. And even Open Directory itself contradicts the non-commercial notion by the fact that it contains commercial categories. So I can't help but feel that it's an idealistic notion. Mind you, I have no objection whatsoever to the directory being non-commercial, i.e. truly, purely non-commercial. But a person can't help but develop bad feelings and a sense of injustice when he or she sees the commercial competition listed in the directory while he can't seem to get in. You can't help but feel that the editor works for the competition. Realistically, these exploitive types are sure to get in once in a while. Does the dmoz community guard against these types, watch for and purge them?

It may not be a good sign that all web directories and search engines used to be free and the search results presumably unbiased. Now all the significant ones charge, some for listings, some per click, some for both (Inktomi's pricing scheme is absurd). The results are often biased toward the higher paying. And it's only going to go more in this direction. It's just good business. How can you sustain a popular, high quality web site without revenue? We've seen the formula many times: offer a free service, gain market share, then go commercial. Look at what happened with free open-source Linux. Now almost all major distros have been bought up by big businesses and have gone commercial. And they are fighting for supremacy by introducing more and more proprietary improvements. Red Hat is now charging hundreds of dollars per year! So who can say what will happen with dmoz in the future? Maybe it will become the MS directory?

Disclaimer: I'm just conversing here, not flame baiting.

Maybe I can get nominated for Most Long-Winded New Member?

There is a difference between not being a commercial website promotion service and not listing commercial sites.

We are not a commercial website promotion service, since we do not serve the needs of webmasters and take no money for reviewing and listings sites.

However, we certainly list both commercial and non-commercial sites.

I understand that bad advice causes anxiety. The raised levels of anxiety caused by ignoramus sensationalism-mongering TV reports about Three Mile Island caused multiple deaths, while the accident itself had no perceptible health effects. Life is like that -- what you believe that isn't so....

And ... projective solipsism is not one of the healthier mental attitudes.

Look, here's the facts. There are thousands of active editors. Hundreds of them COULD have listed your site. None of them did. I could have. I didn't.

So. You deduce that I am a competitor of yours? But wait a moment -- there's oneeye. He could have listed the site. He didn't. He must also be a competitor. And don't forget donaldb, who hasn't even posted in this thread. Another who could have and didn't, obviously cowering elsewhere to hide his guilt. And editors who don't even visit the forums here ... the conspiracy broadens...

And ... do you think you're the ONLY victim? Consider this fact: every single commercial category lists some sites and fails to list other sites. Each of us editalls is obviously competing in every one of those businesses. Why, we'd all be busier than one-armed paper hangers beging attacked by swarms of mosquitoes -- we wouldn't have TIME to add ANY sites.

How far does a rational being have to follow this kind of reasoning before figuring out it's ... um, sanity-challenged? Man, O.J.Simpson and Hillary Clinton put together were just local martyrs compared to this!

On the other hand, there's a directory here. There are thousands of editors who have already listed hundreds of thousands of commercial sites. And yet, people repeat these paranoiac fantasies everytime one of us adds one of their competitors. (Yes, I've even heard people claim 99% of the ODP listings are editors' sites. It's simply insane, but that doesn't even slow down the people who love to repeat it.)

This is not rocket science. It's not even first-order predicate calculus! It's merely the kind of recognition of (and sympathy with) other semi-autonomous, semi-sentient creatures that ... mothers try to teach five-year-olds: oh, and some sixth-grade remedial arithmetic. Do the math. Find a sixth-grader to help, if you need it. Then look around you, and say: "I'm not the only person in this solar system who's not listed. There may actually be beings in nearby galaxies who are NOT OUT TO GET ME!"

And ... who knows? maybe some day some editor will figure out that the best way to drive insane despair deep into the heart of all of your competitors, will be to list your site....

What's with all the anger Hutcheson? Did I blast you or accuse you of anything? It sounds like you have been subjected to that many times and have come to expect it. However, all I was doing was trying to convey to you what is going on outside the curtain. Why people feel the way they do. That the feelings are to be expected due to the way the system works and they way the human mind works. Getting angry with people for feeling that way or expecting humans to change the way their minds work doesn't make any sense.

Many people would react angrily to your insults, but I will not. That's not to say it didn't succeed in getting me a little pissed. Attacks only serve to cause bad feelings and reinforce beliefs. To my mind, an intelligent, mature person responds with facts, not insults, when they are trying to prove a point. So that is what I will do.

I do not need the help of a sixth grader to know that I am not the only one. I was assuming that many people go through the same experience. However, is everyone who submits a listing supposed to know the inner workings of DMOZ? Am I supposed to know what an "editall" is? I am assuming it's an editor with the ability to work on all categories. Until now, my belief was that editors could only work in certain assigned categories. I believe I have seen editors' profiles with (sometimes extremely short) lists of categories they edit. The category I applied in lists a category editor at the bottom. It doesn't say "one of the people who can add sites submitted to this category".

Sorry if this offends your sensibilities, but, as crazy as this sounds, I just don't have an unquestioning faith in the pureness and integrity of a DMOZ editor. I'm sure many are unbiased, humble, and honest. And I'm equally sure that some are lacking in one or more of the aforementioned qualities.

I'd bet I know more about how the directory works than the average applicant, so it needn't surprise you any longer when one of them expresses frustration and anger.

Bobrat-

Thanks for your calm and logical response. Even as I wrote my comments I was aware of the fact you stated. But I was trying to convey they even so, the effect, or at least the perceived effect among many webmasters, is that the directory is of great commercial value and commercial competitors are benefitting commercially from it. So it may be more accurate to say that "indirectly" or "inadvertantly" it is a commercial web site promotion service. It may not have started out that way, but the present reality must take precedence over past intentions. Please do not take this as a criticism. My intention has been to explain to you why you are confronted with so many irate webmasters, as alluded to by Hutcheson. Things no doubt look very different from behind the curtain.

So it may be more accurate to say that "indirectly" or "inadvertantly" it is a commercial web site promotion service.

Click to expand...

No, not at all. And we know why we get irate webmasters - misinformation and/or greed. They would rather believe what others say we are than read our guidelines and listen to the editors here. We aim to catalog the best resources on the web. Sometimes those resources accompany things to buy, products and services. An advertisement is not content to us and will not get in, we want more. And once we've explored all variations on a theme be it commercial or non-commercial, there is virtually no unique content left for us to find, only repeats of what we have already got. So the bar rises. We don't compare customer service levels, we don't compare prices, we don't have a mission to provide consumer choice. A site with detailed information about its customer service levels, and prices on everything (as opposed to a contact us and we'll make it up depending on how gullible you sound link) will rate higher than one without. But neither might make it, we might want more than that.

So we are not interested in who competes with who in their line of business. We are not interested overly in how they do business provided it doesn't breach the guidelines on what we include. We are interested only in the content of their website, how original, how plentiful the information on the site, how freely given without obligation, how useful to the Internet surfing public no matter what they are looking for.

Two webmasters both selling wooden rocking horses. One shows me a picture and tells me to ring a toll-free number. One gives me chapter and verse on the origin of the company, the history of rocking horses, prices on a range of rocking horse products, tips on how to repair reins and grease the mechanisms. I reject the first, list the second. I don't care that they are competitors. I care only about the original content of the site.

We cannot educate some people who will never believe that DMOZ is not there to use as a promotional tool, free of charge, and editors are there to do their bidding. They use that same argument as you used, "reality" over intentions. But that reality is in their own minds i.e. it is not reality at all, just wishful thinking. It is because they are so wrapped up in the mighty $ (or to give some their due, wrapped up in their own self-importance instead) that they simply cannot grasp in their tiny narrowly focused minds, the concept that we stand for, stand by, and adhere to rigidly.

Someone said:

>But a person can't help but develop bad feelings and a sense of injustice when he or she sees the commercial competition listed in the directory while he can't seem to get in. You can't help but feel that the editor works for the competition.

That's all the bad feelings there are here. I am the editor. Are there any other things you want to personally accuse me of, without any evidence whatsoever -- and despite the simple facts which I cited, and which anyone may independently check?

Some people "cannot help" being insane. But I believe many people can look rationally at the facts, and realize when their feelings are irrational. So I give you the facts, so that if you are rational, you need not feel persecuted any longer -- you need no longer harbor those "bad feelings." But in order to do that, you're going to have to stop projecting your anger into other people.

>So it may be more accurate to say that "indirectly" or "inadvertantly" it is a commercial web site promotion service.

As accurate as to say that Linux is "indirectly" a pederasty service (because some users in foreign countries may have used computers running Linux to exchange pictures and information about it.) Now, I grant you, Steve Ballmer and some of his shills have been saying just that. But ... that kind of accuracy is hardly indistinguishable from old-fashioned slander.

Instead of that, you might consider this: (1) does the ODP serve its intended function -- that of building an index of human knowledge on the web -- as well as any human effort does? (2) does the ODP make its work available to others, for use according to their intentions? (3) is there something inherently good (rather than primarily or predominantly evil) about pure information?

Knowledge (wielded rationally, of course) is power -- sometimes, even, the power to be free. I've given one example in this thread already -- I argue it can help to banish fears and bad feelings. Now, there's nothing we can do for Mr. B.: he knows what's going on with Linux, and it actively threatens his status. But the vast majority of people don't have that kind of status to be threatened. For them, the ODP is a source of information. The hundred buggy-whip makers (or whatever) aren't going to be harmed substantially by our listing one of them in our category -- for that matter, the truth is that the one who got the listing isn't going to be helped substantially! (Another myth that causes many bad feelings is that the ODP is the gateway to riches beyond even Ballmer's imagination.)

No, the people who are really helped are the surfers who now have more information about the buggy-whip industry. We'll focus on that, and let someone else deal with the macabre scenario of twenty buggy-whip-makers laying the internet waste fighting about who'll be number one in the Google listing. For us, it really doesn't matter and mustn't matter.

The childish insults keep coming, but I will again refrain from trashing the insultor.

"contact us and we'll make it up depending on how gullible you sound"

Wow! I am agast at the ignorance and prejudice behind that statement.

OF COURSE a site that lists prices is better than one that doesn't, all other things being equal. That is obvious to anyone who shops online. I used to have a site where I broke industry tradition by listing prices when the competition would try to get you to call. Why did I do this? To get more sales. It is more convenient for the shopper and gives the impression of honesty and simpler transactions without negotiating.

If I could do the same on my current site I would jump at the chance. You think we don't list prices so we can make more money? It's a handicap! Apparently you are not aware of the difference between distributors and brokers. Which explains why your directory doesn't give a separate category. I'm not faulting you for this since brokers don't advertize that they are not franchised distributors as that may give a bad impression. But I will try to clarify.

Distributors represent specific manufacturers and list products at the list prices of those manufacturers. However, they are restricted to supplying only the products currently produced by those specific companies, which is a tiny subset of all the products available. It is easy for them to list the prices.

Brokers on the other hand can supply products from any and all manufacturers, including obsolete or legacy products (sometimes items that are no longer produced are needed). In general they do not stock nearly as much inventory (like a typical web based company) but buy products as they are needed. They are more service oriented than distributors in that they locate items for you that are sometimes difficult and sometimes impossible to find otherwise. They cannot list prices as they do not have a catalog since they supply anything and there are so many products out there that no one can list all the prices. The final costs reflects the difficulty of locating the items, putting together quantities from multiple sources, calling and faxing overseas, having them shipped in. The idea that you could list prices for this is ludicrous.

Even if the above had not been the case, your arguments are contradicted by your work. It is quite easy to find sites listed that are noting more than glorified business cards, and poorly designed ones at that. I immediately found broker sites with no pricing, and obviously less funcionality than my site. I could list examples here, but I'm assuming that would be against forum etiquette. If not, let me know and I will supply, although I doubt you care about this.

I also doubt there is any benefit to myself in continuing this conversation. For some reason unknown to me, some editors have gotten offended. That was not my intention. I can understand someone closely associated with the directory taking exception to some of my statements, but to become offended by them and unwilling to let it go seems to me like an act of will. The first apparent cause of offense seemed to be the misunderstanding that I was accusing editors of being in league with submitters. I never accused any editors of collusion, I just explained why it is easy for submitters to get that impression. Look up the definition of "jumping down someone's throat" on dictionary.com and you will see a thumbnail of Hutcheson's response. I have tried to clear up the apparent cause of the offense, but it seems there is an unwillingness to stop being offended. It is surprising that some cannot deal with my explanation and move on. The other apparent cause of offense was the fact that I did not possess complete knowledge of the inner workings of the project, and that I must be completely insane or extremely stupid ever to have thought what so many other submitters have thought. In effect, Hutcheson was insulting probably the majority of business submitters. Why did he not simply state that people who feel that way just don't know what goes on inside the project and provide a simple explanation for them? Why lash out with insults to intelligence and sanity? I'm guessing a psychological disorder that could benefit from medication. For an editor to lash out with unprovoked insults is a discredit to the organization and the other volunteers.

Would someone please do me the kindness of letting me know whether my submission can be deleted or impeded (e.g. negatively commented) at the whim of an editor with personal hostility? Thank you in advance.

During this time I have looked around in this forum on my own and gotten a better idea of what the directory is about (or supposed to be anyway). It is supposed to be about quality sites and original content. Though my site is of sufficient quality, I will admit that it does not have much in the way of original content, being a typical site for it's category. It's just a corporate site in a "boring" sales/service industry. And due to not being one of the first added to the category, there is little to make an editor want to add it. At some point I may devote some time to adding significant educational contect, which, while being useless to my customers directly, may prompt a listing, which may in turn help more customers to find our useful service. That is if we haven't been blacklisted by an editor with a grudge.

Meanwhile, I have many other important task to attend to in marketing, staffing, employee training, financing, web design, application development, system administration, security, etc. Yes, for some of us, there is a whole world out there outside of the open directory.

rlodato said:

I'm not faulting you for this since brokers don't advertize that they are not franchised distributors as that may give a bad impression. But I will try to clarify.

Distributors represent specific manufacturers and list products at the list prices of those manufacturers. However, they are restricted to supplying only the products currently produced by those specific companies, which is a tiny subset of all the products available. It is easy for them to list the prices.

Click to expand...

You fail to distinguish between "authorized distributors", who do set their own prices (for most products), and may be listable, and "captive distributors", who do not, and we will reject in favor of the manufacturers' sites.

Brokers, on the other hand, DO compete on price, so prices for items in stock should be listed.

Even if the above had not been the case, your arguments are contradicted by your work. It is quite easy to find sites listed that are noting more than glorified business cards, and poorly designed ones at that. I immediately found broker sites with no pricing, and obviously less funcionality than my site. I could list examples here, but I'm assuming that would be against forum etiquette. If not, let me know and I will supply, although I doubt you care about this.

Click to expand...

IMHO, it would be hard to find sites with less functionality than your site. A search by product type, rather than by part number, might make the site more functional -- but it also might be impossible. I don't know enough about electronic components to be sure.

But, if we have sites listed that are not suitable for listing, we want to know about it. Someone else will have to respond as to whether it should be in the Report Hijacks, Dead Links & Inappropriate ODP Content Here ONLY, or directly to a meta.

For what it's worth -- your site might very well be listable in http://dmoz.org/Regional/North_America/United_States/New_York/Localities/P/Port_Jefferson_Station/ , even if we don't consider it suitable for the category you suggested. You may submit to that category, if you haven't already done so.

rlodato said:

Would someone please do me the kindness of letting me know whether my submission can be deleted or impeded (e.g. negatively commented) at the whim of an editor with personal hostility? Thank you in advance.

Click to expand...

Well, any editor can comment, positively or negatively, on a submission. It would be editor abuse for an editor to make a significantly negative comment based only on what I've seen here.

Again, this is my opinion -- I don't think I can be considered a even a senior editor at this point.

>Would someone please do me the kindness of letting me know whether my submission can be deleted or impeded (e.g. negatively commented) at the whim of an editor with personal hostility?

Yes, of course it can. Has happened before, will certainly happen again.

That's why we have an "abuse reporting system" -- because we would consider that abuse.

Thanks for the responses guys.

Peace out.

Hutcheson-

You seem like a decent guy from what I have seen in other threads, so maybe I said something that hit a nerve or pushed a button and/or got you prejudiced against me. Please forgive me for that. Can we start over?

Arubin-

As insulting as what you said sounds (about the funtionality), I will admit I agree. As I said, it's a corporate site in a "boring" sales industry. It's not exactly an exciting hobby theme, fad, trend, game, recreation, etc. Believe me, I would love it if it was about music, history, chess, games, pirates, ... There is no limit to what I could do with those categories. But with "board level electronic component wholesale distribution"? I don't know of much we can do other than add an educational area. I.e. glossary and part classifications. Again, that wouldn't help our customers much but may be good for people learning about the industry and to build links and traffic. Ideas anyone?

Alright, I'll try to be open minded and brainstorm... Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Electronic Component Arcade! Play Diode Hunt. Try to shoot the diodes as they fly across the screen.

See, that kind of thing I'm afraid would give a bad impression to serious buyers. Another idea that, while not necessarily original, would give more functionality is a part watcher service that emails you if and when a hard to find part becomes available. That has been somewhere down my priority list for years.

Data sheets (i.e. product specs) are another thing to potentially get into. Sometimes people do ask about that. But considering the myriads of myriads of items out there, and all the data for each one, that could be a LOT of data. Then again, we could be content to have some, or focus on a certain type. But again, it's not unique.

I'm open to suggestions.

In response to your other comment: In general, our customers already know exactly what they want by part number. And no, it wouldn't be possible to search by anything else.

We, and most companies like us, don't stock much but source and procure what is needed as it's needed. It's not possible to list prices because we don't even know what we will have to pay. Even though we do have hundreds of items in stock, that is a tiny drop in the bucket of what is available and what people ask us for. As our inventory has been growing, we may soon start listing prices for those particular items so they will come up on the rare occasion when they match someone's search. You would be surprised how often even the largest distys in the world do not have a part you are looking for. That's why our database lists not only our own private stock, but also parts on consignment, and parts in inventory in our network members. Basically, it's a confederation of companies each with a relatively small inventory trying to help each other sell their stock and making up a useful database. If we each listed only our own private stock, you would have to visits thousands of web sites and search each one. Every day we get lists of parts that have newly become available, but no pricing. When we find interest, we find out the pricing.

It's a tough business, but it has advanced a lot in recent years due to the web. Before that, you had to make a lot more phone calls. We are much more web enabled than most companies in the industry. At least we used to be. They're catching up. Our use of the web and multiple networks and databases (which we must pay for) is what gives us a competitive edge. Almost all of our applications are home made and web based, including product searches, contact management, email, forms, etc. This enables our people to work from home sometimes, and in fact our newest member is based in California. So when I think of our web site and web server, I think of all this functionality, but the public can't see it. However, when someone submits an RFQ online it doesn't get emailed but goes immediately into the system so someone can call them back.

Maybe I should take your advice and submit to the local category. We are a small company, so any bit helps. Thanks to the web we have been around for almost four years and now have a staff of 15. Including children and spouses, that makes about 35 people who depend on the business. It can be very stressful at times. I thought we had a good thing going with Google until they started dropping pages like mad. People were finding us when they searched for part numbers in Google. Now our traffic is a shadow of its former self. Very stressful. I have been working day and night to improve the situation but have yet to see an improvement. Then I remembered Open Directory and thought maybe the pagerank would help. And the rest is history. Actually, the other part is history too. Not particulary significant or interesting history, but history nonetheless.

Well, before this post gets too long I had better go give my puppy Oscar some attention.

Thanks again everyone.

The site is awaiting review, no decisions have been finalised, what is the problem here? We have explained how we operate so you know the situation first hand and not from a misguided source. The site will be reviewed in time and you wouldn't have got a suggestion to send a copy to the Regional locality category too if it the site didn't pass a first glance for there - who knows what a detailed review will bring but that is for another day. Leave it, que sera sera, come back and find out more in 6 months if you want.

oneeye-

Not sure what you mean. Does it seem like I have a problem? The only thing I can think of that you may be thinking is that I shouldn't continue a discussion? I.e. it's for status check only? If so, my apologies. Let me know and I'll ignore the thread for 6 months or so. I'm used to a typical forum where you can just keep posting.