Status of http://www.cal4life.com?

arubin

Editall/Catmv
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Messages
5,093
Not there, and not listable. We don't list affiliates of MLM companies.
 

coolcases

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2004
Messages
32
Your answer is exactly what I have been saying to the site owner. I remember when ODP removed MLM categories awhile back. However, ODP does list her competitors' web pages, as "informative" articles, which use direct affiliate links into the store of the manufacturer's website. A search for Transfer Factor (health) in dmoz.org will exemplify how some of the ODP editors' prefer to give "article" listings to thinly disguised affiliate businesses, over stores that are not ashamed of saying that are simply a store and nothing more. Obviously, the motives of each site owner to submit the links to dmoz.org is the same - to make mo' money. However, one site owner submits links which are insincere in their intent and purpose and get accepted, while the other website owner submits her link (just one) to the appropriate shopping/business category that matches the actual purpose of her website, and her submissions are rejected.

Although http://www.cal4life.com does sell the stuff through an affiliate program, it has own shopping cart, keeps stock on hand by making bulk purchases, and ships the stuff from Carlsbad, California.

If she removed the affiliate items from her site, and ODP accepted it, what would prevent her from putting the affiliate stuff back on her site? Would her listing be removed? A web search would show hundreds of ODP listed websites selling the same stuff.
 

spectregunner

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
8,768
If she removed the affiliate items from her site, and ODP accepted it, what would prevent her from putting the affiliate stuff back on her site?

Hopefully, she would have more ethics than that.

Would her listing be removed?

When we caught it, or when one of her competitors reported her. And then she would risk an outright ban.

---

Slight change of subjects: if you are aware of sites that are improperly listed, or have changed content, or are MLM in disguise, please take a few moments are report them in the Abuse forum. All URLs that are reported there are investigated by a senior editor, and while not every reported site is removed, they are examined.
 

coolcases

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2004
Messages
32
I suppose the line has to be drawn somewhere with MLM marketing, as well as this thread. Thank you for your reply.
 

hutcheson

Curlie Meta
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
19,136
Coolcases, much of what you say about motives is no doubt true. Marketing is not a field that attracts creatures with a propensity for sincere speech.

But ... and this may be a difficult point to express to persons who ARE interested primarily in profit, and who WILL take personal umbrage at decisions made about their personal, potentially profitable business -- we have a focus.

We aren't about webmasters. The webmaster may be as vicious as Janet Reno or as vacuous as Janet Jackson; she be teaching greed to Bill Gates and rudeness to Wallace Sanford. Or ... he might be singlehandedly forcing the Pope to reconsider the tradition of not canonizing people before death.

It doesn't matter, not in the very least little bit. We don't judge, we don't look at personal motives. (A good thing, too, because we simply don't have adequate information to judge well.)

Now, putting aside our personal opinions of the ancestry, intelligence, ethics, courtesy, and social utility of the webmaster, what's left?

Not their business model: "We don't care about business model" is a traditional ODP proverb. This is worth repeating: regardless of how deeply we despise the MLM racket, we don't reject sites because their owners are MLM scum!

We reject sites because they don't have enough unique content. MLM promotional material isn't unique content -- like any other advertising, promotion, noise, or distraction on the site, it counts as a negative. But it isn't a disqualification. What is the absolute disqualification is lack of unique content.

Now, MLMers are nothing if not persistent -- THAT racket doesn't attract shrinking violets! So they attempt to manipulate us by disguising their advertising as other things -- "shopping directories", "consumer information sites", "personal pages", and so on. As you see.

What you may not have yet seen is that economic selfishness is not the only focus that can add persistence to a personality. The ODP was formed around an ideal, "to make information available freely to people." And, if you lift your eyes above the pathological creatures scrabbling and squabbling in the mud for loose change, there's a whole world of genuinely human activity based around the exchange of ideas. Prophets, authors, teachers, scientists, parents, ... why, even MLM is at its very worst not a genuine evil, but simply a diabolical perversion of the human desire to propagate useful information: and salesmanship (no matter how vile many of its common manifestations) is at its best simply identifying human needs and human capabilities, and matching them up. But the point is, EVEN WITHOUT BEING PAID, humans do this thing.

I'm in the Information Technology business. I get paid for telling people stuff -- different jobs, different information exchanged: but that theme is recurrent. I like doing that. I'd do it for free. I, um, do do it for free. And that attracted me to the ODP.

So, on one side we have the MLM spammers, willing to do almost anything to get a hindclaw up in that scrum in the muck, trying to manipulate the ODP. On the other side, we have the ODP editors, carefully NOT telling people how to do websites, but also being very explicit about what types of websites can hope for whatever promotion an ODP listing gives. How much actual information can a MLMer be manipulated into putting on a website? The ones with the most information might get listings.

Who's manipulating whom here? Both sides are constantly re-evaluating their methods in the light of their own missions....

Generally, the result of this process is (from our point of view) that the quality of available (and ODP-indexed) content slowly rises as webmasters work harder to make competitive sites. And, from the outside, the perspective is that new unlisted sites are often better than old listed sites. But don't jump to the conclusion that it's just favoritism. It is that four years ago, our standards had to be lower because there was less information available -- and those sites are getting publicity now because they were leading lemmings back then. This isn't just an ODP limitation: any index, no matter how implementd, will always lag the actual data. It is, however, an opportunity for us.

So: if you're willing to give examples of what you think of as the least informative of the article-disguised MLM sites, some editor will probably be willing to re-review them according to something more like current standards. And do we care whether you're doing it just to scuttle the competition?

No. we thank you for your help.

Who's manipulating whom?
 

coolcases

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2004
Messages
32
Happy New Year Hutcheson and ODP folks! :confuse2: Time for me to recover from self-induced chemical intoxication.

I decided to help DMOZ begin its 2005 house cleaning chores. I just submitted five abuse reports to http://report-abuse.dmoz.org, related to links to affiliate/MLM pages that sell the same health supplements as my partner Karen at www.cal4life.com.

The last one (885d08b2d1e123e63acfabaddb42a218) was interesting because it refers to the all-too-pervasive syndicated Google Adwords spam seen here http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=46984. www.dvmnewsmagazine.com is listed in DMOZ and it is earning some cents, indirectly, on affiliate/MLM products sold through Google's Adwords.

How does the ODP treat sites that are splattered with Google Adwords, that are nothing more than links to affiliate MLM web pages? Would not the display of Google's Adwords be a violation of DMOZ's Guidelines, prohibiting listings for sites with affiliate links? What about sites with Commission Junction www.cj.com - bfast.com links or computer hardware review sites with 50 www.Pricegrabber.com links on the home page or sites like http://www.tomshardware.com/ which is inundated with "affiliate" links to an affiliate store at http://tomshardware.bizrate.com/buy/browse__cat_id--405,rf--tom021.html? Wouldn't they also be in violation of DMOZ's guidelines? Where does an editor draw the line, or is there a set of nice, sweet Preferred Affiliate Programs in which Google and Bizrate are obviously included? Apparently, some sites are allowed to have their cake and allowed to eat it, too.
 

oneeye

Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2002
Messages
3,512
From our publicly available guidelines

"Sites consisting primarily of affiliate links, or whose sole purpose is to drive user traffic to another site for the purpose of commission sales, provide no unique content and are not appropriate for inclusion in the directory. However, a site that contains affiliate links in addition to other content (such as a fan site for a singer that has interviews and photos plus banner ads and links to buy the singer's CDs) might be an acceptable submission to the directory."

The key is in the value of information beyond the affiliate links. This will vary according to the category and the editor's assessment. There is no outright ban on sites carrying GoogleAds or affiliate links in addition to other content, each site is treated on its merits.
 
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