Status on www.belt-buckle-knife.com

Hello,
I would like to check the status on www.belt-buckle-knife.com
I submitted it to http://www.dmoz.org/Recreation/Knives/Custom_Knives/
on two occassions. Once about 6 months ago and once about one year ago. Add the time of both submissions there was not an editor for the category..

Thank You
Phil Weaver
www.belt-buckle-knife.com

Hi Phil.

As part of the general overhaul of the DMOZ servers taking place, the editor server has been switched off for a day or two. Please be patient and someone will look at your submission asap.

It looks like at least one editor has had a problem with the legality of your site.

In the ODP guidelines you'll see "Sites with unlawful content should not be listed in the directory, particularly those intent and substantially focused on making available and distributing illegal materials. Examples include [...] material that advocates, solicits or abets illegal activity (such as fraud or violence) in specific instances".

I don't know how legal a concealed weapon is in California (where the servers are and therefore where the law applies), but looking at your site I can see a lot of text that advocates carrying a knife as a concealed weapon. The site goes into great detail about how your knives can be brought out rapidly with innocent-looking hand movements, and it describes how much they scare police officers. We're not qualified to judge on legal matters, but if an editor gets an uneasy feeling about a site, that editor is likely to leave it for someone else to deal with.

Because of the concerns one editor had about your product, and your site, it has been moved to Business/Business_Services/Security/Products_and_Equipment/Personal_Protection/, where it's currently waiting for another review.

Hello,

Thank you for the reply. That is a concern which I had not thought about. Yes, some of the language of the site is meant to make a person feel a need for the tool. We use strong language but it is only sales language. Please let me assure you that the knife is perfectly legal in all fifty states.

Our FAQ section provides links to info on the legality of the site. California of course has the strongest laws concerning concealed weapons. These can be found in PC12020 and they do mention a belt buckle knife. However they were written to outlaw a specific knife which was designed as a stabbing weapon. PC 12020 section 13 states the definition of a belt buckle knife as
(13) As used in this section, a "belt buckle knife" is a knife
which is made an integral part of a belt buckle and consists of a
blade with a length of at least 21/2 inches.

Our knife does not fall into either integral or 2 1/2 inches.

Integral meaning necessary to be whole. Our knife is actually a belt buckle which also acts as a knife holder rather than the spade like device which is what is intended in the law.

You can find the california Penal code on the subject at
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/

Actually police officers are some of our biggest customers, which is why we have a police links section on the site.

We are very sorry if the language made you unneasy. It is just imagery to put a person mentally in a situation. We are not trying to market to undesirables. Our customers are law abiding citizens, as I said mostly police officers, EMT's, Firemen. People who may need a knife in a hurry. Yes we do market to bikers but in todays world they are typically not of a bad element but doctors and lawyers who enjoy an escape on the weekend.

Bernard Levines site http://www.knife-expert.com/pages/523051/index.htm
is probably the best knife law site on the web. It has links to the laws of all 50 states. The only two that mention a belt buckle knife are CA and NV and ours does not fit into either definition.

You guys are the experts as far as what category so I trust your opinion. Thanks again for the reply and your consideration.

Phil Weaver
www.belt-buckle-knife.com

I can see flaws with your definition of 'integral', and I'm sure a lawyer would interpret it differently to you, but we're not legal experts, and we can't pass judgement on such things.

I didn't meant to suggest that we won't list the site because it might be illegal, that's not the way we do things. If we can't see an obvious legal violation, we give sites the benefit of the doubt.

What I was trying to say is that the products on your site may give an editor pause for thought. We're all volunteers here, and nobody has to do anyhting they don't agree with. If an editor doesn't like a site, for any reason, they don't have to deal with it. This is what has happened to your site. At least one editor has decided that they didn't want to deal it, and they have left it for someone else to look at.

We're not going to ban your site because of the products it sells, or the way that it sells them, but the questionable nature of those things will make it harder to find an editor happy to list it. I'm sorry that this is so, but that's the nature of volunteer organisations.

Thank you, I understand your point. It would almost put the editor in the position of deciding on a fact of law.

The definition of integral is "Necessary to be whole" As I've had lawyers and our local DA explain to me that integral means that the two parts, the knife and the buckle would not function independently of each other. They do, take them apart and you still have a buckle and a knife. However this is a mute point because it does not fit the other criteria of being over 2 1/2 inches, it is actually less than 2.

It's an easy mistake, a local police afficer made the mistake here in CA. Arrested a friend. When it got to the DA they dropped it and gave my friend $2500 for him to sign off for the false arrest.

A similiar thing happened in Reno and the Reno police dept wrote a formal apology.

Gerber used to make a knife which was similiar. They didn't have any problems.

Anyway, I don't mean to try to argue points of law as I know that is exactly what you are trying to avoind. I apologize, I just get a bit defensive over a great product that people just love when they find it

Phil
www.belt-buckle-knife.com



It's an easy mistake to make.

I'm afraid it doesn't look like you understood dfy's main point. You continue to argue about the legality of your knife, which is both irrelevant and contrary to the rules of this forum.

The main point was and remains that an editor with ethical or other qualms about your product is not required to list it. This may or may not result in an indefinite delay in listing your site.

Since it's a knife, it's now back in the Custom_Knives category awaiting re-review.

If you haven't seen it listed within a few months, feel free to check back here for an update. If you do, please use this thread, which probably won't be locked unless you continue to argue.

Sorry I didn't mean to argue. I was only hoping to provide a little background since it is easily confused (by name) with another product http://www.bowenknife.com/DoubleEdgeWide.php which is very illegal and should be

If it is an individuals ethical decision then I guess there is nothing really to do but to wait for that decision.

Thank you again for your time and I apologize again if I seem argumentative. It was not my intent.

Phil
www.belt-buckle-knfe.com <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

1) A couple of issues: When we say, "an editor is not required to list a site", that's nearly absolute. If I think, say, "mandatory-shintoism-for-the-world.com" espouses a view I _suspect_ is illegal, or even find repugnant, that's it. I don't _reject_ the site, but I don't have to volunteer to review it. There is no appeal from this decision. (The worst that can happen is for me to find so few sites "worth listing" that I become inactive as an editor.)

2) There is almost no conceivable information, given in these forums, that could affect an editing decision. At the most, discussions here might indicate what information needs to be given "on the website".

Clearly there's a legal issue here; clearly you have some information on that issue. So...why not put it on the site?

FAQ: "I've heard that belt knives are illegal in some cities. Are these legal?"

Add the information you've presented here. Will it get the site listed in the ODP faster? Maybe...maybe not. Would it be a selling point for your knives as opposed to some other source that doesn't address the potential problem? (in other words, useful information for potential consumers?) Quite possibly.

1) I understand an editor is not required to list a site. However is he/she forbidden from listing a site selling illegal merchandise? (just for my own knowledge please)

2)Thank you for correcting me. I was misinformed. Somewhere I read that an editor would review the statements in this forum when considering a listing. Perhaps I read it on this forum, perhaps in a newsletter, I don't know. Regardless, I was misinformed.

3)It is on the site. However, because you did not see it, I must not have it obvious enough. That is truly the hardest thing about building a site is figuring out it's useability. I am certainly going to review mine as the information must not be obvious.

4)There is not another source for my product. We manufacture it and noone else on the web sells it. Being so unique, in my mind, would make me think it would be highly elligable for the directory. (Not an argument for a listing, I realize that is mute.)

Sorry to bother you
Phil
www.belt-buckle-knife.com

1) I understand an editor is not required to list a site. However is he/she forbidden from listing a site selling illegal merchandise? (just for my own knowledge please)
&gt;Yes, a site illegal in California (location of the ODP servers) must not be listed. Editors are, generally speaking, not going to know exactly what's legal in California or not, so editors are generous with this. Also, an editor shouldn't list a site that is illegal in their home jurisdiction, and editors should be very strict with this. (So, a site about the PIRA might not be listed by a UK editor, but might be listed by a Swiss editor.)

&gt;That is truly the hardest thing about building a site is figuring out it's useability.Too true. But if you've figured this out, you're ahead of 99% of thecompetition.

&gt;There is not another source for my product. We manufacture it and noone else on the web sells it. Being so unique, in my mind, would make me think it would be highly elligable for the directory.

And in an editor's also: if that is true, it would indeed make the site highly eligible.

My point is that an editor should not take your word on that matter, even on the site, and especially not in the forums. (If you read these forums long enough, you'll meet some pathological liars, and not all of them editors either.) The editor needs to look at the website (not this forum), see what content it has, and then _check_ to see if that is available at any other website. Having done that (and in a case like this, that shouldn't take long) they'll know you were telling the truth -- in fact, they'll know the truth without having been told.