Suggestion for the ODP

solid7

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Here is my suggestion for the ODP, to help alleviate the problems of "annoying" site submitters, and to clear up the dishonesty being perpetrated by BOTH editors AND webmasters/SEOs...

<META NAME="GOOGLEBOT" CONTENT="NOINDEX, NOFOLLOW">

for ALL categories of the directory.

After all, isn't it a conflict of interest that people submit sites to a directory, full well knowing that it's a "non-commercial" venture, yet a decent search engine ranking (for most submitters, a "commercial" venture) depends on their "objective" listing? I'd rather pay a fee for inclusion, and let the editors get paid for their work, than to continue under the present charade.

Everyone is frustrated, so why don't we just cut off the problem at the knees? Then, we can get back to everyone being honest about what they're doing...

I would LOVE to get as much feedback as possible on this thread.... (you too, donaldb, tin man)
 

hutcheson

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>After all, isn't it a conflict of interest that people submit sites to a directory, full well knowing that it's a "non-commercial" venture, yet a decent search engine ranking (for most submitters, a "commercial" venture) depends on their "objective" listing?

I'm not sure exactly where you're going with this. Are you suggesting that we should only list sites if we're absolutely certain that listing them will harm their webmasters?

>I'd rather pay a fee for inclusion, and let the editors get paid for their work, than to continue under the present charade.

Good news! While the ODP doesn't offer the service you are looking for, many sites do: I'd recommend you start with http://yahoo.com/ and http://looksmart.com/ , but there are many smaller/cheaper sites.
 

solid7

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hutcheson said:
>After all, isn't it a conflict of interest that people submit sites to a directory, full well knowing that it's a "non-commercial" venture, yet a decent search engine ranking (for most submitters, a "commercial" venture) depends on their "objective" listing?

I'm not sure exactly where you're going with this. Are you suggesting that we should only list sites if we're absolutely certain that listing them will harm their webmasters?

>I'd rather pay a fee for inclusion, and let the editors get paid for their work, than to continue under the present charade.

Good news! While the ODP doesn't offer the service you are looking for, many sites do: I'd recommend you start with http://yahoo.com/ and http://looksmart.com/ , but there are many smaller/cheaper sites.



IS Yahoo or Looksmart tied at the hip to the ODP, as Google is? Because, funny thing is, I'm already a paid member of many directores, including those listed...

As for your first question - ODP = non-commercial (unless you have an editor in your pocket - I won't get that started) Google = commercial. I can't say for certain, but I'd have to guess that more than 75%, minimum of the sites that ask for inclusion, (judging by the old site submission requests) are for-profit, or "soft money" sites. Being listed in ODP, means being seen in Google. Hmm... is there a "commercial" connection? Is there an incentive to introduce unethical practices? (that's already been answered)

I'm not suggesting you harm anyone. Like you didn't understand my question, I didn't understand yours. I'm simply saying that high visibility being attached to an ODP listing is a conflict of interest. Your mission is supposed to create a quality directory, with objective editors selecting and rewarding those who hold to a higher standard. Google is an entrepeneurial paradise, where, unfortunately, the slick, dirty, and aggressively competitive win out. Why let that spill over into something that has honorable intentions?

If people here truly care about building a good directory, with unbiased, unfavoring attitudes, then by all means, dump Google, and let them build their own directory!!! Otherwise, let's just call the ODP what it really is - the Google directory.

Or, if you think that you can unequivocably show me, and thousands of others out there, how to achieve TRULY significant Google search engine placement, in COMPETITIVE fields, WITHOUT an ODP listing, I am ALL EARS. Otherwise, if you can't, I remain firm in my belief, that you are just an extension of Google's toolbox, and for what that's worth, all of the editors should be getting PAID for what they are doing.

As I said - I'd happily pay for an ODP listing - even if you weren't Google's "bitch." (no offense intended)
 

motsa

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Or, if you think that you can unequivocably show me, and thousands of others out there, how to achieve TRULY significant Google search engine placement, in COMPETITIVE fields, WITHOUT an ODP listing, I am ALL EARS.
There have been threads in other forums (SEO/webmaster forums) that have done that. This is not the place to talk to about Google, though that does seem to be the groove you're stuck in right now.

Our policy is to allow our data to be grabbed and used by anyone who wants to while following our license agreement. Why would be make that "anyone but Google"? We have no control over what Google does with the data but they're welcome to take it.
 

solid7

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motsa said:
There have been threads in other forums (SEO/webmaster forums) that have done that. This is not the place to talk to about Google, though that does seem to be the groove you're stuck in right now.

Our policy is to allow our data to be grabbed and used by anyone who wants to while following our license agreement. Why would be make that "anyone but Google"? We have no control over what Google does with the data but they're welcome to take it.


OK, that's fair. Please point me to the nearest crooked editor. I want the same deal that some of the others have gotten.
 

solid7

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motsa said:
Our policy is to allow our data to be grabbed and used by anyone who wants to while following our license agreement. Why would be make that "anyone but Google"? We have no control over what Google does with the data but they're welcome to take it.

My real response to this is quite simple: At some point in time, all things must exercise some degree of restraint. It's quite obvious that Google is the problem with the ODP. It's why editors are being (or attempted to be) bought off, and why the workload is unmanageable, no matter what spin anybody wants to put on it. It's a broken system. You don't honestly have the resources to be BOTH an open directory, AND the backbone for the world's largest search engine.

There is no crime in admitting that the system is broken, and needs a fix. It's OK to adapt to the reality of the situation.

If I discovered a way to generate free power for my entire house, and I could share it with my neighbor, why wouldn't I, right? But what happens when the guy across the street wants it, too, and I'm not capable, with the original idea, to supply him, also? It wouldn't be FAIR to share with one neighbor, and not the other. Well, it's quite simple - I either find a way to help both, or when I see that I can't do it for no cost, I stop doing it for the other neighbor free of charge, and ask anyone interested in the blossoming venture, to share the burden. Again, whether you want to be intellectually honest or not is your perogative - but you simply cannot fulfil the mission of the ODP when you are being flooded with submissions by people who want nothing more than to get a decent chance at a reasonable Google ranking. It just doesn't work that way.

Call me captain obvious...
 

solid7

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bobrat said:
Then perhaps you should discuss it with Google and not here.

That's not a very "objective" comment.

Google is only one variable in the equation. The ODP is the "enabler." That makes it perfectly relevant. Since they aren't going to stop getting what they consider to be a good thing, maybe the ODP should step up. Your directory, your rules.

You have the power to fix the problem. Google doesn't own the ODP. Or does it?

You see, I don't like the "Google factor" any more than you like me talking about it here. I don't understand how any editor could be so blind as to not see why there is such an aura of mistrust surrounding the "objective" ODP editors, and the project as a whole. This is WAY beyond just a bunch of maladjusted or dysfunctional whiners. There are legitimate issues surrounding the unholy alliance with Google and ODP.

I believe in fairness. I personally believe that I'm every bit, and more objective than any ODP editor that's responded to this post, thusfar. I'm looking beyond my own self interest, and beyond loyalties to any group. Most people just want to be right in their own minds. In this case, I see a problem, and would love to see it fixed. I find it shocking that you can take time to respond to a post, but can't be any more "objective" than what you have been. That is, to acknowledge the problem, and work on bettering the project, for the sake OF the project. It's OK to be an editor, AND to disagree with SOME things that the collective community is doing.


Just my opinion, of course.
 

Desmei

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My two cents

Or, if you think that you can unequivocably show me, and thousands of others out there, how to achieve TRULY significant Google search engine placement, in COMPETITIVE fields, WITHOUT an ODP listing, I am ALL EARS.
It is certainly very possible to rank well with Google without an ODP listing. The ODP listing is really just like any other link. Yes, it will get you included in many mirror directories, and add to your number of back links, but it is quality of links not just quantity that gets you better rankings.

In fact, for competitive keywords, a DMOZ listing will probably help you less. In fiercely competitive situations, you are up against sites that have thousands of quality backlinks - greatly diminishing the effect of the single ODP listing. In a less competitive situation, your competition may not be as adept at SEO, so your ODP listing plus another couple of decent links may be all that is needed to acheive better rank in the SERPS.

I have high ranking sites that bear this out, and I know of many others who do as well.

Stop thinking of DMOZ as the be all end all of SEO, and focus on content and relevant backlinks. DMOZ can be a valuable one-way link, that can produce some traffic and HELP, but it is NOT the answer to ranking. There are many articles on this subject, and I am sorry if this forum is not the place for me to address this, but I couldn't help but reply to what I read.
 

hutcheson

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And the ODP isn't the "backbone" for any current major search engine. You've been spending too much time with the lunatic-cretin fringe of the SERP perp community, and far too little time actually facing reality, in the form of actual Google search results. Reverse those proportions, and you could be MUCH better informed.

But what SHOULD have become obvious already is this: We don't care about Google ranking. The ODP preceded Google, you know.

And as the whole ODP is predicated on not "managing" the workload, the proposition that it is "unmanageable" ... isn't significant enough to care whether it's true or false.

Your concept of "fairness" is ... not mine. If because of it you with one breath justify malicious greed on the part of webmasters and condemn generosity from volunteer editors -- I am pleased to be honored by your contumely, and gratefully accept it as testimony to the essential morality of my actions.
 

solid7

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Desmei said:
It is certainly very possible to rank well with Google without an ODP listing. The ODP listing is really just like any other link. Yes, it will get you included in many mirror directories, and add to your number of back links, but it is quality of links not just quantity that gets you better rankings.

In fact, for competitive keywords, a DMOZ listing will probably help you less. In fiercely competitive situations, you are up against sites that have thousands of quality backlinks - greatly diminishing the effect of the single ODP listing. In a less competitive situation, your competition may not be as adept at SEO, so your ODP listing plus another couple of decent links may be all that is needed to acheive better rank in the SERPS.

I have high ranking sites that bear this out, and I know of many others who do as well.

Stop thinking of DMOZ as the be all end all of SEO, and focus on content and relevant backlinks. DMOZ can be a valuable one-way link, that can produce some traffic and HELP, but it is NOT the answer to ranking. There are many articles on this subject, and I am sorry if this forum is not the place for me to address this, but I couldn't help but reply to what I read.


"Be all" and "end all???" You are the one off base!

I'm not an SEO, by profession - I'll be honest. But I do CLEARLY understand what it takes to make the rankings. There are times when it becomes VITAL to get the ODP listing for certain fields. I am not in anything that is FIERCELY competitive. Only competitive. Have I done link building campaigns? Yes. Have I done content? Yes. Have I done content add-ins and frequent updates? Yes. Have I paid others to improve on my work? Yes. Thousands...

I am not unfamiliar with your comments. But Google just happens to be the biggest kid on the block, and that being the case, I'm speaking expressly to that element. Forget the other SEs. They don't exist. When it comes to making the grade, ("show me the money") Google is where it's at. I will absolutely guarantee you that my rivals (speaking only for MY competition - don't read anything into this statement) who make top 20 - even top 30 all have ODP listings. I could get all of the same links they have, even more, or better quality - but without the ODP listing that they enjoy, FORGET ABOUT IT! How do I know this? How do you THINK that I know? (hint - research - lots of research)

As for Google - Page rank means nothing. Links + content mean everything, but content will only do so much. I have competitors who have nothing (literally) for content on some pages, and they get top 5 Google rankings. How does that happen? Guess where they got their link? I have MORE quality links, and certainly better content. I thought I was crazy, so I PAID to have this very statement verified!!!

This can be said for many people. I don't have to use myself as the standard.
 

Sunanda

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It's quite obvious that Google is the problem with the ODP.

Google is a user of the ODP's data; and fully complies with the license conditions of use.

Google is also one of the few licensed users that uses the ODP data in creative and imaginative ways -- not just another cookie-cutter years-old clone of the ODP.

I welcome the way they have responded to the ODP's initiative to make a large-scale human-edited directory of websites widely and easily available.

The ODP is not failing in its initiative, and Google is not the scapegoat for any such failure.
 

Desmei

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Your research and mine differ that's all. There are exceptions to every rule. If these content poor sites are outranking you, are you sure it is because of the DMOZ listing, and if so, how can you possibly be sure? Regardless of the cause, the problem lies with Google. Personally, I would bet there are other factors involved, not just the DMOZ listing.

Sorry if I took you guys of subject. This really does belong in a different forum. Out.
 

solid7

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hutcheson said:
And the ODP isn't the "backbone" for any current major search engine. You've been spending too much time with the lunatic-cretin fringe of the SERP perp community, and far too little time actually facing reality, in the form of actual Google search results. Reverse those proportions, and you could be MUCH better informed.

Actually, I haven't spent any time at all with them. I've been watching several of my websites for months, and those of my competitors. I know some of my competitor's websites as well or better than I know my own. I don't spend any time at all reading what other people have to say on the subject. Maybe I should. I'm usually more "objective" than that.

It's not very "objective" of an ODP editor to make such asinine assumptions, is it? I could never admit you as an editor, if I were asked. You don't seem to be able to control your emotions very well, Young Jedi. (I have the privilege of letting it all hang out - I do not represent, in any way, the ODP)

You are totally right. ODP isn't the backbone of the Google directory. It *IS* the Google directory.


But what SHOULD have become obvious already is this: We don't care about Google ranking. The ODP preceded Google, you know.

Good. Exclude them from using the directory info. Like I said, I'd rather pay them, and know that I'm getting a timely review. Or better yet - don't exclude them before you actually SUGGEST that they do their own work, or pay you for yours, since they caused it to burgeon out of control.


And as the whole ODP is predicated on not "managing" the workload, the proposition that it is "unmanageable" ... isn't significant enough to care whether it's true or false.

Oh, I see - so what you are saying is that the whole effort is unstructured, and disorganized, and nobody really cares if anything gets done?

Anyone with half a brain knows that you can't possibly EVER manage a workload with the rules of exclusion that you have for your editor acceptance, and the amount of work that keeps coming in. It is incumbent upon you to make such statements, simply because there is nothing else to be said, other than the truth - "WE CAN'T HANDLE IT."

You don't have to be so proud. We know, and we understand. At least, I do.

Your concept of "fairness" is ... not mine. If because of it you with one breath justify malicious greed on the part of webmasters and condemn generosity from volunteer editors -- I am pleased to be honored by your contumely, and gratefully accept it as testimony to the essential morality of my actions.

Hmm... I don't recall justifying any malicious greed. (really don't know where you got that) My apologies if I did. I don't condone ANY greed. Which is why I think Google should be excluded from using the ODP dumps. Allowing it spawns greed, on the part of webmasters, AND ODP editors.

I can't really tell what your concept of "fairness" is. From most of your posts that I've read, You're just an angry little man who doesn't give a crap about anything, unless it directly affects what YOU do. (you are really good at being nasty to people, though - I give you credit for that) I guess that's "fair," as long as you don't give a crap for everyone, in EXACTLY the same way...

As for your "essential morality," I think you are delusional. (but thanks for not being condescending, in the least) You probably think that using a Thesaurus to compile your response, and listening to classical music makes you an intellectual, too, right?
 

solid7

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Sunanda said:
Google is a user of the ODP's data; and fully complies with the license conditions of use.

Google is also one of the few licensed users that uses the ODP data in creative and imaginative ways -- not just another cookie-cutter years-old clone of the ODP.

I welcome the way they have responded to the ODP's initiative to make a large-scale human-edited directory of websites widely and easily available.

The ODP is not failing in its initiative, and Google is not the scapegoat for any such failure.


Well, that's a pretty informative, and refreshing post. It's laden with facts, concise opinions, timely content, and it's even polite.

Here's an idea - how about if Google, as one of their "fresh initiatives," sends you a legion of "objective" editors, to help with the process of approving quality sites?

It would certainly be a shame if Google were to ever discontinue using your directory, only after having buried you under a mountain of site reviews, submitted by people who ONLY care about a Google ranking.

A question to ponder - if Google stopped using ODP, how much interest would there be in editor positions? How many new submissions would come in? Would the quality of submitted sites improve?

Just a thought...
 

solid7

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Desmei said:
Your research and mine differ that's all. There are exceptions to every rule.

Boy, did you say a mouthful, or what? I couldn't agree with you more.

If these content poor sites are outranking you, are you sure it is because of the DMOZ listing, and if so, how can you possibly be sure?

I'm certain enough to sound off on it...

It's really not hard at all to find what sites link to a particular page. I'm sure that you know that.

Aside from that, Google is the only SE that I can't get rankings in. True, the algorithms are different at each SE, but since I've told you that I know that, you don't have to assume that I don't. Ironically, I have top 10 ratings on SE's for which I paid for inclusion in their respective directories, and without "jazzing up", or spamming any of my page descriptions. The same, quality content sites, with quality links, and directory listings, can't get a top 500 ranking for most keywords in Google. It's not the "sandbox," either.

You tell me...


Regardless of the cause, the problem lies with Google. Personally, I would bet there are other factors involved, not just the DMOZ listing.

Bet? I hired people who know more than you or I on the subject to validate my findings. I don't hire second rate, spammer type SEO's. After all, garbage in, garbage out.
 

Sunanda

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solid7 said:
A question to ponder - if Google stopped using ODP, how much interest would there be in editor positions? How many new submissions would come in? Would the quality of submitted sites improve?

According to Wikipedia there are about twice as many active editors now compared to a date prior to Google becoming an ODP data user:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Directory_Project ("Directory growth and maturation")

I'e no idea how accurate the wikipedia information is, or how much of the doubling of the active editor base (assuming that is the case) is due to natural growth and how much due to some sort of "Google effect"

"Submissions" (suggested sites) can be a useful source of potential new sites for ODP editors. So initiatives to improve the quality of suggestions would be help everyone involved with or who uses the ODP. But banning a licensed user as an attempt to acheive that does not seem an effective starting point.
 

hutcheson

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>so what you are saying is that the whole effort is unstructured, and disorganized ...

"Unstructured"? yes, by design. "Disorganized"? actually "unorganized", also by design.

>... and nobody really cares if anything gets done?

No, you got that part backwards. Actually it's like this: When nobody really cares, nothing gets done; conversely, when somebody really cares, anything gets done. The Open Directory itself is an indication of what people care about. But it's not just the ODP; all volunteerism works this way.

>>And the ODP isn't the "backbone" for any current major search engine.

>You are totally right. ODP isn't the backbone of the Google directory. It *IS* the Google directory.

"Directory"? "Search engine"? In this forum we try to keep that distinction clear, because some people who don't understand the internet get confused easily.

>Exclude [Google] from using the directory info.

Not legally possible. And not at all desirable: why shouldn't Google (or more specifically, Google searchers) have whatever benefit they can get from our work?

I remain persuaded, as I suggested before, that you have gotten some spectacularly gormless SERP advice -- whether first- or second-hand isn't material.

But the Open Directory Project is not a search engine; and what anyone -- search engine or portal, important or insignificant -- does with the Open Directory data isn't a concern we can ethically act on. We put it out there for people to use, and we have no right to complain when they use it.
 

hutcheson

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>Google is the only SE that I can't get rankings in.

Have you been following Google's patent filings?

Recently published was a patent that described how one could track not only current data but also historical data: as an example, what matters today may not be the number of links a page has today, but the change in number of links over the past year.

If they actually implement something like this, anyone who tells you they can look at the links TODAY and tell you what's wrong, is feeding you a line. And the notorious "sandbox" is not the only possible effect of such a technique.
 

Eric-the-Bun

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Thinks

solid7 said:
Ironically, I have top 10 ratings on SE's for which I paid for inclusion in their respective directories, and without "jazzing up", or spamming any of my page descriptions. The same, quality content sites, with quality links, and directory listings, can't get a top 500 ranking for most keywords in Google.

I can't see why it is 'ironic' that you get top ratings if you pay for inclusion, it seems logical to me. It would be 'ironic' were you to get higher ratings with an SE that you did not pay for.

If the site has quality content, why does it need paid for inclusions?

However it seems your arguement (logically extended) is that any site that does not link to yours should exclude Googlebot so you can increase your PR.

SE's directs traffic to me as a result of searches when my content matches the enquiry and the content of my 'competitor' does not. I have a PR of 0 and my main 'competitor' has a PR of 5. From day 1 of Google finding me, my site appeared on page 1 of google for searches on my keywords even though I had no inbound links.

My best source of traffic (after SE bots) now is in fact via a VERY BIG CORPORATION who I asked (...well grovelled really) for a link from - they gave me four (unique content again). [Of course lots of people haven't given me links which makes me wonder if they are corrupt..... :rolleyes: ].

:icon_idea A more productive alternative to consider would be to increase your unique content so people will want to link to you ?
 
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