The art of the right category - Cities and Areas

Hello, I must firstly say the enquiry regards a site I submitted as part of an application to be an editor ..
I had heard it takes a long time to get sites listed in DMOZ and thought I might use a bit of my "spare time" for the common good but some of the comments I had from the refuser of my application just made me wonder how you really make decisions on geographical listings and best categories.
I just found it very strange and although I have read through the submission guidelines it still seems to make little sense to me so I thought maybe someone can suggest why the inclusion would be listed in the category. It may also serve as interesting guidance for others who face a similar issue?

One of the sites I suggested for inclusion relates to a fictional local character "Dennis of Grunty Fen" who was a subject of many local radio and personal appearances over a period of around 20 years and the creator Pete Sayers died in 2005. The character and area are listed in Wikipedia, and I guess from a DMOZ point of view you could exclude it on the grounds of quality, but the site itself gives a little background information on the inhabitants and geography of "Grunty Fen" and offers a few CDs of a limited number of the radio shows for those ardent fans of Dennis.
I would say the area of Grunty Fen is approximately 1 1/2 miles from the city of Ely and I was applying to edit the following category:

Top : Regional: Europe: United Kingdom: England: Cambridgeshire : Ely

I admit I really should have thought a little more about my application, I rushed it a little due to the excitement of the possibility of doing something useful!
I was thinking of websites that would fall within the local area and may be listed in sub-categories rather than the category itself so on reflection if I analysed it properly I may feel it more relevant to either:

Top : Regional: Europe: United Kingdom: England: Cambridgeshire: Ely : Arts and Entertainment or
Top : Regional: Europe: United Kingdom: England: Cambridgeshire: Ely : Society and Culture

The comments I received where:

"There's nothing on this site to link it specifically with Ely. If we list it anywhere, it would go within Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Shopping"

I was very surprised it would be categorised as a shopping site, I believe it lists three CDs that are available, the character is really only known within the local area having been on local radio and I would have thought an area so close by to the city would be acceptable,it is an area you can barely find on a map let alone create a sub category for. If I were to browse DMOZ rather than search , as I have a tendancy to do, there would be no way I would find it in the suggested category as I would think of it as very specific to the local area.

I did check round the listings withn the scope of the ely area to see how narrow other listing were and found a pub that is considerably further away from the City (10 miles) that is listed under:

Top : Regional: Europe: United Kingdom: England: Cambridgeshire: Ely: Business and Economy : Restaurants and Bars

Would this be regarded as an error allow a listing for somewhere (that does not have a sub category) which is 10 miles away under the City listing when you exclude others that are five times closer?
I find it rather confusing and a relevant question for our locality which has quite a few two road villages which may have relevant sites for inclusion at a later date.
Thanks for any guidance you may be able to give!

In Regional websites are listed based on the city/town they are located in.

First drill down as deep as you can through the geographical areas
continent -> country -> province/state -> city
Some cities are subdivided in neighbourhoods / villages. Some countries will have extra levels (f.i. UK/England).
If a company is located in 1 city go to that city. If it is located in 2 or more cities in the same province go to that province. If it is located in 2 or more cities in different provinces go to the country.
When you have found the correct geographical level than find the best subject category within that geographical area. And as deep as possible.
Suggest the website to that category.
If there is no category for the subject suggest the website to the category of the geographical area itself.

Suggesting it to the wrong geographical level will not result in a rejection as an editor will move it. But it certainly will enlarge the time between first suggestion and review, very often with several months or even years.

If you notice any websites that are not listed in the correct category please let us know. Either through an update request on DMOZ or through a post in the quality control section of this forum.

Read all about the Regional guidelines at http://www.dmoz.org/guidelines/regional/

For the UK there are some extra guidlelines. see http://www.dmoz.org/faq/Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom

nbelbin said:

I did check round the listings withn the scope of the ely area to see how narrow other listing were and found a pub that is considerably further away from the City (10 miles) that is listed under:

Top : Regional: Europe: United Kingdom: England: Cambridgeshire: Ely: Business and Economy : Restaurants and Bars

Would this be regarded as an error allow a listing for somewhere (that does not have a sub category) which is 10 miles away under the City listing when you exclude others that are five times closer?
I find it rather confusing and a relevant question for our locality which has quite a few two road villages which may have relevant sites for inclusion at a later date.

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I checked the 3 listings in that category. One site was for sale, and has been removed from the category, the other two have addresses in Ely. Maybe one is some 10 miles outside the city center but it is still in the city bounderies.

Grunty Fen is a fictional place, as are Lilliput and Mordor. It just isn't sensible to list fictional places in Regional categories.

We evaluate websites by looking at the websites themselves, not on what's effectively hearsay evidence. I've looked at the Dennis site and I can't find anything referring to Ely. The only real life geographical information seems to be the Essex address for buying CDs but there's no sign of a walk in store there.

I'm briefly considering Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Regions/Eastern/Arts_and_Entertainment/Radio but it's no longer being broadcast. This isn't easy ...

Maybe one is some 10 miles outside the city center but it is still in the city bounderies.

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On the map, it's around 10km from Ely - too far away to be listed there. I'm moving it to the nearby Wicken category instead .

Added: I've also killed its county level listing, which probably predates our Wicken category.

As an UK editor Jim knows much more about it towns than I do (from The Netherlands).
The website shows "Old School Lane, Upware, Ely, CB7 5ZR".
Which fooled me. Thinking Upware is part of Ely.
Luckely Jim knew better, and Wikpedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upware ) confirms - "Upware is a village in Wicken civil parish, part of East Cambridgeshire, England.".

Which fooled me. Thinking Upware is part of Ely

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Ely is part of the official address because that's the 'post town' where Royal Mail's nearest major sorting office is. Post towns can sometimes be in entirely different counties (and very occasionally in different UK countries) and, sadly, cannot be relied upon for listing placement .

jimnoble said:

Grunty Fen is a fictional place, as are Lilliput and Mordor. It just isn't sensible to list fictional places in Regional categories.

We evaluate websites by looking at the websites themselves, not on what's effectively hearsay evidence. I've looked at the Dennis site and I can't find anything referring to Ely. The only real life geographical information seems to be the Essex address for buying CDs but there's no sign of a walk in store there.

I'm briefly considering Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Regions/Eastern/Arts_and_Entertainment/Radio but it's no longer being broadcast. This isn't easy ...

Click to expand...

Well I didnt claim it would be easy .. and I guess the real much briefer question should have been Upware vs Grunty Fen due to the distances involved.
I am not even claiming it is particularly worthy of inclusion, but listing it under shopping just seemed completely strange to me and I like to know what I am missing in such cases.
I was tempted to reapply as an editor but I really wanted a better understanding of how to classify such regional issues before wasting anyone elses time and despite reading guidelines and forums could see no logic to the inclusion of Upware which is further away

Although the series is fictional and the official location of "Grunty Fen" no longer exists it was a parish near Wilburton/Ely until 1933 and is listed in wikipedia which also includes entries for Dennis as a sub heading of "Popular Culture". There is still reference to Grunty Fen locally including Grunty Fen Road, The Grunty Fen Rhubarb Festival is held annualy at the Burwell Museum and there was an area at the museum dedicated to Dennis just to make it even more interesting to classify geographically

I guess the short answer to my very long question is the Upware listing was in the wrong place and DMOZ editors inspect submissions when they are made.
Revisions are made whenever someone reports innacuracies or changes as it would be a mammoth task to monitor for such things!
It certainly had me reading submission and editing guidleines closely, checking and finding other innacuracies in listings for businesses in the Ely area.
I guess its a luxury having local knowledge and spending a little too much time looking at listing s when you think "i havent heard of them ... oh they are in Peterborough so I am not surprised"
At least I know I may not be right but I am not completely miss reading everything.

pvgool said:

For the UK there are some extra guidlelines. see http://www.dmoz.org/faq/Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom

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Thanks, I had read the regional parts but had not found the Uk specific on which I am reading now.
I think maybe DMOZ is more concerned with the subject then the location whereas I tend to think location then subject, as my primary focus is on local things these days.
I would tend to navigate form the uk down like:

Top : Regional: Europe: United Kingdom: England: Cambridgeshire: Ely : Business and Economy

rather than following the branch down from Business.

After much thought and far too much time reading related Grunty Fen documents around the web I would personally suggest the most appropriate category would be:

Top : Regional: Europe: United Kingdom: England: Cambridgeshire: Ely : Society and Culture

Citing the Grunty Fen Half Marathon as a good example geographically, the course runs along the boandary of Grunty Fen Farm (map at http://www.elyrunners.co.uk/gruntyfen/).
Although it takes a route around Witchford which is geographically close to Ely but itself is not a sub category due to its small size.

I would see it as much more relevanet than Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Business_and_Economy/Shopping ..

I trust I am thinking it would be a reasonable classification that way?

I'm briefly considering Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Regions/Eastern/Arts_and_Entertainment/Radio but it's no longer being broadcast. This isn't easy

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I would expect even a no-longer-broadcast show to be in Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Arts_and_Entertainment/Radio/Programmes_and_Presenters, in the same way that TV shows are in the Televisions/Programmes category regardless of whether or not they currently air.

After much thought and far too much time reading related Grunty Fen documents around the web I would personally suggest the most appropriate category would be:

Top : Regional: Europe: United Kingdom: England: Cambridgeshire: Ely : Society and Culture

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A radio program site would never be placed in a Society and Culture category. It would be either in Arts and Entertainment or New and Media, depending on where in Regional you're talking about. And programs are rarely, if ever, placed by locality level. (Consider Coronation Street, for example, whose category is rightly placed in Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Arts_and_Entertainment/Television/Programmes/Soap_Operas/Coronation_Street, not in Manchester.)

motsa said:

A radio program site would never be placed in a Society and Culture category. It would be either in Arts and Entertainment or New and Media, depending on where in Regional you're talking about. And programs are rarely, if ever, placed by locality level. (Consider Coronation Street, for example, whose category is rightly placed in Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Arts_and_Entertainment/Television/Programmes/Soap_Operas/Coronation_Street, not in Manchester.)

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Thanks for the clarification,I was taking my idea of the culture category from the article on wikipedia and my own maybe slanted agenda of it being a local site of interest only to local people, rather than a national media production of interest to all. I think it does lead me to the earlier point I made that DMOZ categories appear to be more loaded towards the topic of the content in the site than the sites intended audience, or alternatively, the way I think of how I would expect to find it.

As for Coronation Street I would see it as of national significance rather than local, especially as the location of Weatherfield is completely fictional and would tend to think of it in a different way due to its likely target audience. Although it may be based and produced in the area of Manchester I would think "what can i find out about the TV program" rather than "what can I find in the Manchester area" but that is probably just the way I think

Essentially for it to be under the Ely category it would need to be a site more focussed on the topic of Grunty Fen with the character of Dennis as small subject within the history of the area rather than the way it is now, as although Grunty Fen no longer exists on any map it did exist and still has events and museum exhibits based on it so could be worthy of inclusion.

The whole issue does tend to bring me to the conclusion I would be wise not to apply to be an editor as I would not be very good at it, but at least I know why and I have a much wider knowledge of Grunty Fen than I ever intended to have too