The problem with ODP

Markos101

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The ODP seems based on a sound principle - an Open Directory, hand crafted by human beings who have a certain amount of expertise on the topic/directory classification they are viewing. A directory which transcends algorithmic methods of determining site relevance and therefore opening the way for a listing that is of genuine usefulness to those (human beings, not computer bots) searching it.

Over the past few years, several of the major search engines, including Google, Lycos, and Hotbot, plus many others, have sourced ODP listings for their directories, likely mainly for reasons of sheer laziness, and cost cutting. As well as this, ODP allows sites an easy to access directory of sites for their own site listings.

This has led to several problems:

Systematic Problems With ODP

(1) The ODP has become of major importance for sites in gaining search engine rankings. In so much as the ODP is now sourced by some of the biggest names on the Internet, ODP now affectively has a virtual monopoly on one of the major sources of search engine traffic. A listing on ODP leads to a number of quality, inbound links from other sites which improve PR and therefore SERPs listings. The ODP editors know this, as they likely have also issued their own sites to ODP before becoming editors. Indeed, the application process itself questions your involvement in web design and publishing. It can also lead to increased traffic through directory listings in the major search enginges.
(2) The fact that ODP editors have 'expertise' in their area likely means that, for commercial catagories, they have a commercial interest in the catagory they are 'editing'. Now human beings are human beings, and ODP editors are not gods, and it is almost certain that a level of rejection goes on for commercial interest of editors, rather than for reasons of poor site content. There is no requirement for editors to give reasonable detail on the reasons for site rejections.. Also - There is no limit on the amount of time an editor can take to review and accept/reject a site.
(3) The internet was, in my opinion, meant to be one of the most democratic platforms available to any person in the world, with a computer and internet connection. In this sense, it provides a platform for creative people, without having to spend an awful lot of money, to share their ideas, values and to setup an enterprise. However:-
(4) The ODP carries strict guidelines on web site content, governed by only a few administrative members of the ODP. Since the ODP, due to its outsourcing of its material to a number of major internet search platforms, which many use to find material relevant to their search queries on the internet, the virtual monopoly on this route to PR leads to the fact that a few administrative members of ODP dictate the rules governing almost all highly ranked websites. This absolutely centralises web site publishing and gives an absolute level of power to only a few, unelected, administrative members of ODP. Because of this, only a few essentially can dictate the rules governing internet websites (at least those who wish to build PR). This, in my opinion, is potentially dangerous and highly conflicts with (3), the very reason for the internet being such a level playing field in the first place.


Possible Solutions To The Problems With ODP

(i) The application process for becoming an editor should be given to another editor in a completely unrelated catagory. At the moment, if I am correct in my assumption that an application for a catagory is given to an editor of the same catagory (I stand corrected if not), it leaves it open to the corruption explained in (2). This is nothing to do with specific editors of ODP, it is to do with the system.
(ii) Given the powers bestowed to ODP editors, just as ODP requires web site publishers to be accountable for their sites according to strict guidelines, editors should be more accountable for the reasons that they reject both editor candidates and, most importantly, the websites they review. Given the power of ODP, it is simply unacceptable for editors to be able to explain their decisions after review with a single sentence. Editors should be more accountable for their decisions. This helps prevent corruption and encourages fair and objective behaviour. This is nothing to do with specific editors of ODP, it is to do with the system.
(iii) The lack of rules regarding submission review times is unacceptable. Just like website developers must not submit their sites again within a given period, editors must be more accountable for their power and complete reviews of sites within a certain period of time, for instance, a month. If an editor is not able to do so, they should be given penalty points automatically. This is the equivalent of a bank charging interest on a loan in order to encourage the loan to be paid back to the bank. If the editor builds up a certain number of penalty points, they should be automatically dropped from the ODP editor members, and only able to reapply after a certain given amount of time, for example, a year. This is the equivalent of the driving license system.
(iv) If the editor is so busy with other activities that they are not able to carry out (iii), they should not apply to become an ODP editor. It is no excuse for editors to neglect website reviews for many, many months, even years, simply because they are 'busy doing other things'. This is necessary because ODP yields so much power on search engine listings.
(v) Just as applicants to ODP listings must be respectful of editors, ODP editors must be respectful to applicants on these forums. I have seen too many examples of editors utterly disregarding the concerns of applicants, and even at times being disrespectful and rude. Many applicants feel they have no choice but to accept this behaviour - and the editors involved know this - because applicants suspect that it might influence their ability to achieve a listing.


Conclusion

ODP has a very powerful monopoly on listings on many search engine directories, and for the ability for sites to achieve decent PR. This has a great influence on the websites given for certain keywords by the major search engines. ODP currently threatens the democracy of the internet.

For this reason, the editors, despite being volunteers, must be more accountable to the applicants. If they cannot be accountable and dedicate the required time to ODP reviews, they should not apply to become ODP editors. The system I've described would ensure editors, whom require applicants to adhere to strict guidelines, also are accountable and adhere to guidelines that respect the community they serve. This is the only way to maintain the concept of (3) to a maximum level. As for point (4), a voting system could be developed on this forum regarding any changes made to the website guidelines, for example via forum debate->vote->changes by administrators system.

If you feel I have not balanced the needs/wishes of the editors with the needs/wishes of the applicants, feel free to make comment on anything I've put forward. I'd like to hear from a number of editors on how they feel about my comments. Also any frustrated applicants put your views forward!

Mark
 

pvgool

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About your points

Systematic problems with ODP
(1) yes ofcourse we know, but we don't care
(2) mostly not true, we don't ask editors to be experts on the subject of the category, the only thing we ask is that they are able to review and describe a site in the way ODP likes it to be done. Reasons for rejection of a site are visible in our internal logs but will not be shared outside the editor community.
(3) yes, and that's why we list sites that contribute original content to this environment
(4) yes we have our own rules, which are btw not managed by a few but by the editor community as a whole.

Possible solutions
(1) this is already the case. your assumption is totaly incorrect
(ii) editors are already accountable, but only within the editor community
(iii) this has been dicussed many time at RZ, but people don't seem to understand that an editor doing one edit each month is still a better alternative for no editor at all
(iv) this has also been discussed many time: reviewing suggestions is not our major taks, suggestions are just one of many ways for us to get new listings. If an editor does no reviews of suggested sites he still can be a very good editor in our opinion
(v) I agree. everyone should behave in a civilised maner. A persons behaviour here will not influence his chances of getting a website listed. (one exception: if legal threats are announced all communication will be aborted and sites will not be reviewed until matters are settled through our laywers)

Conclusion
point 1: wrong: we have no influence on keywords used by search engines
point 2: already in place: editors are accountable and a miminum amount of dedication is already needed, but this is pure an internal matter. the ODP guidelines are created internaly and I don't see it ever happen that this will change
point 3: as we are not a listing service for wesbite owners many of their wishes and almost all of their needs are of no great influence on the way ODP is and will be working
 

jeanmanco

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Aug 13, 2003
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The Open Directory has a wide reach, certainly, but that is a long way from a monopoly. :)

There are other directories. Many offer paid listings. These seem ideal for commercial webmasters simply seeking links to their sites to boost PR.

Certainly one link in the ODP will spawn others from downstrean users such as the Google Directory. However the ODP is not unique in that. One link from Yahoo.com will generate links from other Yahoo sites. Same thing with Looksmart. I should know - my site is listed in all three. Yes there are more ODP clones than Yahoo clones, but many are not really significant in the SE scheme of things.
 

Markos101

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pvgool said:
About your points

Systematic problems with ODP
(1) yes ofcourse we know, but we don't care

Does anybody here think this is the answer of a professional, accountable individual or a very powerful organisation?

(2) mostly not true, we don't ask editors to be experts on the subject of the category, the only thing we ask is that they are able to review and describe a site in the way ODP likes it to be done. Reasons for rejection of a site are visible in our internal logs but will not be shared outside the editor community.

From the application form: We do not bar editors with business affiliations, since those editors with their own sites usually know their competition and related sites better than anyone. This knowledge can be ideal for helping build an authoritative directory. However, we will not tolerate editors who only add their own sites, or maliciously interfere with others' listings in the directory.

I leave the last sentence in, but point out that it in no way interferes with possible corruption in the choosing of sites in this immensely important directory.

Also, I point out that you have not specifically addressed the points in red.

(3) yes, and that's why we list sites that contribute original content to this environment

Which is for review of a single editor only, not 'ODP as a whole' (however you may define that) - not voted upon or drawn a consenus of by a number of persons. And if a site is rejected, due to the seeming apathy of many volunteer editors to their vitally important role, a site might not be listed or even reviewed for another two years. This leaves scope for unfair competition on the internet, because ODP is the only choice.

If this were the case for conventional marketing methods, our enterprising society and ability to reach potential customers would be utterly centralised to a few in power, which would not be acceptable. Which is why I say editors, despite being volunteers, must be utterly accountable for their actions with respect to ODP. The decision whether to treat ODP as 'anti-enterprise' or not should not be a luxury given to ODP. It is utterly undemocratic.

(4) yes we have our own rules, which are btw not managed by a few but by the editor community as a whole.

Good. This is great.

Possible solutions

(1) this is already the case. your assumption is totaly incorrect

In that case, as I said, I stand corrected.

(ii) editors are already accountable, but only within the editor community

If an editor of ODP is not accountable to the applicant, just as a company is accountable to shareholders and customers, one has to question the systematic integrity of ODP. Again, this is important, given the pivotal role of ODP.

(iii) this has been dicussed many time at RZ, but people don't seem to understand that an editor doing one edit each month is still a better alternative for no editor at all

Not acceptable, again given the pivotal role of ODP. If ODP editors are apathetic to ODP, or busy 'serving the community' in other ways, they should not apply to be an ODP editor. This could be achieved by changing the internal rules of ODP, or changing the conditions for being an ODP editor. If ODP cannot respond consistently and fairly to applicants, and again given the pivotal role of ODP, ODP is at fault and threatens the fairness of competition on the internet.

In that respect, it to be failing in its own mission statement.

(iv) this has also been discussed many time: reviewing suggestions is not our major taks, suggestions are just one of many ways for us to get new listings. If an editor does no reviews of suggested sites he still can be a very good editor in our opinion

I make a fair point, and you have not answered it reasonably. It goes against common sense to believe that an editor who makes no reviews can still be a good editor.

(v) I agree. everyone should behave in a civilised maner. A persons behaviour here will not influence his chances of getting a website listed. (one exception: if legal threats are announced all communication will be aborted and sites will not be reviewed until matters are settled through our laywers)

That seems perfectly fair.

Conclusion

point 1: wrong: we have no influence on keywords used by search engines

I think an understandable misunderstanding. I'm saying that ODP has a lot of power on inbound links and PR; to the extent that it monopolises the major search engines.

point 2: already in place: editors are accountable and a miminum amount of dedication is already needed, but this is pure an internal matter. the ODP guidelines are created internaly and I don't see it ever happen that this will change

From the application form: Accounts expire if you do not login within the first month, or, if you do not edit for a consecutive period of four months.

This is the reason why so many website owners are frustrated with the ODP system. To put it in words; if an editor need only contibute one site every 4 months, or 'edit' every four months, then during this 4 months, a number of other sites (possibly many) might get added to a catagory. At the same time, the editor need only edit one site. This can, and doubtless does, lead to a compounding backlog and therefore leads to waiting times of over 2 years in some cases. At the same time, another site achieves unfair competition simply by the attitude of the editor to ODP.

Again, ODP should stipulate penalties to editors who act with apathy to the listings, because ODP is such a pivotal directory on the internet. I cannot think of anyone saying that is an unfair statement.

point 3: as we are not a listing service for wesbite owners many of their wishes and almost all of their needs are of no great influence on the way ODP is and will be working

If ODP does not serve the website owners, then it is also failing the internet community if it cannot respond fairly and promptly to applicants. It also unfairly biases competition at the whim of an ODP editor.

Mark
 

hutcheson

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The official ODP line, as I understand it, is: submittal date is totally irrelevant to any conceivable measure of directory quality or any possible correlation with reality. It would be catastrophic, impossible, and counterproductive for us to take it into consideration in any way. (I fully concur with this estimation.)

If you think otherwise, feel free to start a new directory with your own flavor of micro-managed time-management managers, and such volunteer editors who'd like working in such an environment. If you're correct, you'll have broken the ODP monopoly that concerns you, added a significant asset to the internet, and introduced a novel approach to volunteer management.

Caveat: look before you leap. My experience with large collaborative volunteer projects (after an hour of using Mozilla Firefox to proofread e-texts for Project Gutenberg) seems to suggest that the _successful_ ones have _all_ taken an entirely different approach: which I'd describe as "don't quite worry about time, and don't quite obsess about quality."
 

Markos101

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hutcheson said:
The official ODP line, as I understand it, is: submittal date is totally irrelevant to any conceivable measure of directory quality or any possible correlation with reality. It would be catastrophic, impossible, and counterproductive for us to take it into consideration in any way. (I fully concur with this estimation.)

If you think otherwise, feel free to start a new directory with your own flavor of micro-managed time-management managers, and such volunteer editors who'd like working in such an environment. If you're correct, you'll have broken the ODP monopoly that concerns you, added a significant asset to the internet, and introduced a novel approach to volunteer management.

I don't think anyone is asking for 'micro-managed time-management managers'; all I am asking for, and from the look of these forums a lot of other website owners; is for a fair review of their website within a month. 4 weeks - 28 days. I cannot think of any reason whatsoever why a site should take over 2 years to review and accept/reject. If a site is rejected, they are then subject of another possible 2 year delay. Seeing as you are also serving the internet community, which is your mission statement, you are also failing them by often failing to be even minimally prompt to the applications of website owners.

By serving website owners within this utterly reasonable timeframe, you are ipso facto not serving the internet community either, by bringing sites of interest and use to the directory and therefore to a number of other directories which is the aim of your mission statement.

ODP is a good concept, an idealistic one which, if it worked, would be of great benefit to the internet community. But it isn't working, and this is suggested by many owners out there utterly frustrated with the unfair advantage other website owners are having over them, simply because the ODP system isn't working.

It would not be an alien concept to adopt stricter policies regarding submission reviews. If the ODP system isn't working, it doesn't reflect on the system, it reflects on the editors, and therefore the system needs to be tweaked to get the editors on their toes. The problem is a human one, not the system, but since ODP editors are human, ODP needs to change in order to reflect that!

Mark
 

leer

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I cannot think of any reason whatsoever why a site should take over 2 years to review and accept/reject.

As a volunteer editor I edit at my own pace and for my own reasons and around my own commitments. ODP is not my life but just a part of it and a part that I would drop tomorrow if I had too for whatever real life reason.

What you seem to be expecting or suggesting sounds more like 'regime' with a little editor workhouse thing going on. The fact remains that whilst sites are being added (which they are in abundance) the directory is growing and the users are being best served (and we are happy) :)
 

Markos101

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Look, I of all people hate human beings being used as tools (rather than human beings using tools), and I see that ODP is based upon a sound principle.

However, I still can't imagine why a site should take more than two years to review. If you want to volunteer to be an ODP editor, then do it with ODP in mind, the purpose of which is to review sites and submit them to the internet community.

One could easily argue that if you're apathetic towards ODP, you're failing as an ODP volunteer.

My best guess is this; many ODP editors join ODP out of self-interest. They post their own site, plus a couple of others to cover their tracks. Their perceived problem solved (the need to get onto ODP), they beome apathetic and more or less neglect ODP, within minimal guidelines. This explains the long time-lag produced at the expense of the internet community, and the website owners.

Whatever the nature of ODP, if it proposes to review and post sites on the directory for the purposes of their users, if it is so slow to respond to new sites coming online, it isn't working. And so it wouldn't be unethical to add basic measures to motivate editors to be a bit more reasonable about the length of time it takes to add sites to the directory.

Given the influence of ODP on major search engines, this is the only responsible thing to do.

Anyone else agree?

Mark
 

motsa

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Not acceptable, again given the pivotal role of ODP. If ODP editors are apathetic to ODP, or busy 'serving the community' in other ways, they should not apply to be an ODP editor. This could be achieved by changing the internal rules of ODP, or changing the conditions for being an ODP editor. If ODP cannot respond consistently and fairly to applicants, and again given the pivotal role of ODP, ODP is at fault and threatens the fairness of competition on the internet.
Hate to be blunt here but what you consider "not acceptable" is meaningless to us. If you had done even a small amount of background reading here in this forum, you'd know that this had been suggested countless times before....and you'd know what our response always is.

I make a fair point, and you have not answered it reasonably. It goes against common sense to believe that an editor who makes no reviews can still be a good editor.
You've misread what pvgool wrote. He wrote "If an editor does no reviews of suggested sites...". Editors have to review sites; they just don't have to find sites in the pool of suggested sites. If they go out and find sites to add on their own, we're just as happy as if they went to the suggested sites. Again, a little bit of background reading on your part would have shown you that this has been suggested many times before and always gets the same response from us.

It would not be an alien concept to adopt stricter policies regarding submission reviews.
Yes, it would. Because you, like many other people, assume that we place a higher priority on the suggestions pool than on any other facet of editing. And we don't.

Look, if you'd read up a little, you'd already know all this. And you wouldn't be rehashing the same old suggestions because you'd already know how we'd respond. I'd also like to remind you that this forum is not here for you to complain about how the ODP runs.
 

jjwill

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Markos101 said:
My best guess is this; many ODP editors join ODP out of self-interest. They post their own site, plus a couple of others to cover their tracks.
Whatever the nature of ODP, if it proposes to review and post sites on the directory for the purposes of their users, if it is so slow to respond to new sites coming online, it isn't working. And so it wouldn't be unethical to add basic measures to motivate editors to be a bit more reasonable about the length of time it takes to add sites to the directory.

Given the influence of ODP on major search engines, this is the only responsible thing to do.

I think you're missing the purpose and spirit of the ODP. I understand where you're coming from, my site isn't listed, yet I don't get upset with the ODP.
First, ODP is not responsible for a websites listing in any search engine. The ODP maintains a directory. If any particular search engine finds that useful, then great, but ODP does not care. They care about accurately representing a healthy size category in the ODP.
Second, from the editors I have listened to, talked to, and observed, they do it out of interest for the ODP and the category they edit. They do it out of obsession for the web community and to be a part of something bigger than themselves. Sure, there maybe a few bad apples, but most get weeded out.

That's how I see it anyway. I'm not an editor, so any editor is welcome to correct me on this. :)
 

leer

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While we are reading from the user song sheet and you are reading from the webmaster song sheet the tune will never harmonise.
 

Markos101

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motsa said:
Hate to be blunt here but what you consider "not acceptable" is meaningless to us. If you had done even a small amount of background reading here in this forum, you'd know that this had been suggested countless times before....and you'd know what our response always is.

ODP is a conglomerate of individual editors, with individual views. If what you're saying is that you're unable to debate ODP processes openly, and are only able to reproduce standard responses, considering the influence of ODP data, that really doesn't bade well on how ODP is run.

I'd also like to remind you that this forum is not here for you to complain about how the ODP runs.

Then given the significance of ODP on the internet, how is ODP held accountable for its actions? It really does strike a bad note to the common sense when those who are able to heavily influence the positions of sites on the internet's major search engines makes claims such as these.

The message to - from what I can see to be a good number of web site owners - is this; ODP editors are perfectly happy to impose any number of rules onto the website owners, throw their weight around quoting this or that directive; and are then highly neglective on their part as editors..

Leer is right, the editors are reading out of the one songbook - perhaps ODP should consider the views of others rather than blatently disregarding them, simply because they aren't part of the 'system' already. It doesn't make for a well run organisation.

Mark
 

joeychgo

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My opinion............

Editors really have to learn to avoid statements like
yes ofcourse we know, but we don't care
and also
Hate to be blunt here but what you consider "not acceptable" is meaningless to us.
It smacks of arrogance and makes people think you dont care in general... Ive seen this attitude come through in maky posts here...

Also, statements like
Look, if you'd read up a little, you'd already know all this. And you wouldn't be rehashing the same old suggestions because you'd already know how we'd respond. I'd also like to remind you that this forum is not here for you to complain about how the ODP runs.
just further show that at least some editors are dismissive of the people who come here for help, and again smacks of arrogance.

Then you have this
but people don't seem to understand that an editor doing one edit each month is still a better alternative for no editor at all
Doesnt it make sense to require editors to have a certain amount of dedication? If they dont have enough dedication to be able to keep up with their catagory on a monthly basis then what kind of job are they doing with the things they do do? For that matter, you could approve almost anyone who applies as an editor under that thinking. ANy editor is better then none.~


Ultimately, I think there are 2 things editors and ODP could do to dramatically improve things. One, make every effort to review sites as quickly as possible. And second, communication - email a suggested site in 30 days with a status. Let them know specifically why a site is denied. I dont think its too much to have an editor spend an afternoon a month. If you cant do that, then why volunteer in the first place?

IM not crabbing, just giving my .02 is all.
 

jjwill

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joeychgo said:
Doesnt it make sense to require editors to have a certain amount of dedication?

So, lets say we designate 10 sites a week must be added by any one editor, or they loose there editor status. OOPS, we just lost 2000 editors this week. Now what do we do? Add more editors. But know we are exponentially adding fewer editors because of the new time restraints. The easier you make it for an editor to become an editor with regards to time management, the more editors you gain. :)
 

joeychgo

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luggagebase said:
So, lets say we designate 10 sites a week must be added by any one editor, or they loose there editor status. OOPS, we just lost 2000 editors this week. Now what do we do? Add more editors. But know we are exponentially adding fewer editors because of the new time restraints. The easier you make it for an editor to become an editor with regards to time management, the more editors you gain. :)

Agreed - my point is - maybe the bar could be just a bit higher?? Spend one afternoon a month. If your catagory is too big to keep up with - then take a smaller one. If you expect little from people, you will get little from many of them.
 

Markos101

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It would grow the ODP directory quicker, without sacrificing quality. It would also stem a lot of unnecessary frustration and anger on the part of well-meaning website owners, some of which are getting fed up of being treated as 'little people' by the occasional ODP editors when they request what's going on, why it's going on, and suggest ways to improve it.

Without asking them all I don't know, but I'm sure many ODP submitters would agree.

Mark
 

jjwill

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joeychgo said:
If your catagory is too big to keep up with - then take a smaller one.

Most cats have many editors, especially if it is large. So if an editor fails to meet the criteria, we take that editor out of a large cat that needs the help more than a baby sub-cat? This makes no sense. :confused:

An editor might do 1 edit this month and 120 edits the next. I know one very good editor who just did 30 in one day. But she has a life outside the ODP and probably won't do that again for awhile.
 

Markos101

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Luggage, you're still not justifying the rule-preaching and neglect on behalf of what seems to be a large portion of ODP editorial. Our point as web site owners is that many of us have a lot to offer the ODP, and yet it takes many many months typically to simply have your website looked at. It can't take that long.

If you're going to be an ODP editor, firstly walk your talk, and secondly have a little dedication to the effort. That is why I say the system should changed to motivate the adding of sites to the directory more promptly.

That can't hurt ODP, and it can't hurt webmasters or ODP users either.

Mark
 

old_crone

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Mark, you are not getting it. The ODP is not accountable to Web site owners. They are not the ODP's customers and never will be. The ODP does not impose any rules onto the website owners. They can do whatever they choose to do with their own sites. The editors do not have the authority to tell anyone what they can or can not do with their own sites.

But like any other Web site, the ODP can choose what they want on their site and the guidelines are representative of what the ODP wants to list on their site. You do not have the authority to challenge the ODP or the editors who edit there.

It's not that editors are negative, though I can see why a Web site owner would think they are, it's because we are coming from completely different directions. You think we are a listing service, we think we are organizing and categorizing Web sites for our users. The suggested pool of Web sites is just that, suggestions. There are many avenues that an editor can use to find and list sites. The suggested pool is just one way and often not the best.

Personally, I'd vote to close down the suggest a site link altogether and so would many other editors. I can go out and find a few sites, write descriptions and titles, and add them quicker than I can find one good site to list in the unreviewed pool ... but closing the suggest a site feature is not likely to happen.

Web site owners are constantly complaining that we are arrogant and dismissive to their plight. Those same Web site owners submit their sites without reading the guidelines. They arrogantly think they know what is needed or they don't care in the least if they submitted to the correct category and in many cases, submit their sites to multiple categories or that they write a guideline compliant title and description (they have no clue of the time it takes to move their sites to the correct category and fix all of their mistakes). Yet, they come in here and make demands that we listen and fix the problem, which, of course, they claim is our problem. And when we tell them it's not our problem, they cry that we are arrogant and power hungry dogs! Most do not try to see it from our perspective, which is exactly what they accuse us of doing when in truth, many try to explain and it usually falls on deaf ears because it isn't what they wanted to hear.

Without having weeded through mounds of trash trying to find the lost gems, you can have no concept of what it takes in both time and determination to review the suggested sites pool in any given category. Until you have and until you have a good concept of the ODP's objective, you can not give good and/or constructive criticism.
 
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