This may be a silly question but......

byteme

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Nov 23, 2004
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As a website designer, checking to see if websites I have requested a listing for, I have discovered that if I put in the www. prefix the sites are not listed, but if I put in the domain without they are. Not that it worries me personally as all mine can be viewed without the www. but is this becoming standard practise at ODP?

And (I know I am in for a pasteing here) why does everybody hate frames so much?? In a world of limited bandwidth, surely they should help every site download?

:rolleyes:
 

jgwright

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Sep 1, 2004
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byteme said:
I have discovered that if I put in the www. prefix the sites are not listed, but if I put in the domain without they are.
Surely just an amazing coincidence. :)
byteme said:
why does everybody hate frames so much??
I won't get started on this one. I thought all the arguments got worn out in about 1998? :D
 
G

gimmster

I have discovered that if I put in the www. prefix the sites are not listed, but if I put in the domain without they are
Actually you have found that the sites do not show up in the odp search when the www is used. That is not related to wheher it is listed. It's a quirk of the (admittedly dodgy) search.
:tree:
 

longcall911

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gimmster said:
It's a quirk of the (admittedly dodgy) search.
This is actually a very good point. The ODP's purpose is to provide a comprehensive directory of quality websites. If a user (surfer) knows the correct category description, and if he/she is adept at directory navigation, chances are high that ODP will provide a quality list of sites.

But, I would guess that the search capability is also very important for certain user classes (the less adept) or for certain site categories that are either deep in the directory or difficult to define.

I think most would agree that the search system is in fact ‘dodgy’ and that it has been for far too long. Are there plans to improve it? Wouldn’t the user community be better served? Or, is it just seen as unimportant because there are many other SEs out there?
 

hutcheson

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The search system is FOSS code, and anyone is welcome to improve it. So far, there have been few improvements, which apparently demonstrates that so far it has been at least good enough, for everyone who cares enough about it to DO something about it. And there, obviously, the matter will rest until someone who really cares is dissatisfied.

As for the issue at hand, I think the underlying cause is that we always have a big problem with "almost-duplicate" URLs -- that is, the same domain plus-or-minus the vestigial "www." prefix. The system cleverly treats them as "almost" the same, which is ideal for our purposes.

It is, however, inconvenient for the people who cause us the problem by persisting in retaining that anachronism -- which is merely an unforeseen but unlamented side effect.
 

jeanmanco

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I'm causing the ODP a problem because my site has www? I had no idea. It was my understanding that the www is standard. Of course I'm pretty clueless though I do try to keep up.
 

hutcheson

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The "www." subdomain was a generally accepted convention -- but never a standard -- back in the early days of the web: when people had separate servers for e-mail, FTP, gopher, and so on, and used the "process server type" as a convention for the subdomain name. But when HTTP became the most common kind of service -- and as server software (and corporate sysadmins) became more professional -- most serious sites abandoned the now pointless "www.", except as an alias for their new single point of connection to the internet for backwards compatibility.

The problem enters when webmasters (or their users) forget whether the www is allowed (or as in occasional seriously botched configurations) required or even occasionally forbidden. And then we get -- as you see here occasionally -- "www.dmoz.org" versus "dmoz.org". Well, if the sysadmin gets the aliasing set up correctly, there's no problem, either for us or for Google. And that's the CURRENT convention (although still no standard). Most sites treat the www. as meaningless -- as good a reason as any not to include it -- and that's how the dmoz server software treats it. (The exact mechanism of that treatment is mysterious to me.) Google is also pretty good -- but not perfect -- at figuring out the equivalence, although it's sort of random about whether the wwermiform appendix is the canonical URL.

Which brings back another hassle for us. People who were careless about whether or not they included the www in their own published URLs, then have the random choice of alias chosen by Google -- rather than going back and whacking their system administrator with a clue stick and getting the redirects done right, they submit pointless URL change requests.

Of course, if you're consistent with wanting everyone to type the four extra characters, it's not really a problem to the ODP -- just a minor distributed annoyance to the people who have to type the extra characters, or forget you have to type it because most websites don't need it anymore.
 

jeanmanco

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Thanks for that very full explanation.

I have just this minute discovered that my site (which is sitting in free space donated by my ISP) works perfectly without the www. Yes I know I should have figured that out ages ago, since that's the case with most domains, but I never gave it a thought. Well, well, well.

[PS - unrelated to this discussion, but my site URL is so long I don't expect anyone to type it out. I suggest they search Google on my name or a couple of keywords. Then if they like it, they can bookmark it.]
 

jjwill

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Aug 11, 2004
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Hutch,
I had this problem with our ISP at one point and had to request a "blank 'A' file" to rectify. I'm assuming that "A" stood for alias.
 

ukros

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Nov 8, 2004
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Although superfluous for many sites (my domain works with and without) and not allowed for some, I find www quite useful on occasions:

Many appplictions (like web-mail) will treat a www. as a link by default, it is quicker to type than http:// and less prone to typos.

It has become a de-facto standard term for the web for the public at large, whether or not they use the internet.

Just www looks better in print, for adverts, leaflets and handouts, rather than the full http:// and for handwritten notes and letters www is easier to write.

It is much easier to use www verbally, in conversation and particularly on the telephone, especially if passing on a telephone message that includes a site address through a non-internet user (they do exist!). "H, T, T, P, colon, forward slash, forward slash" is a dreadful mouthfull!
 

longcall911

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hutcheson said:
People who were careless about whether or not they included the www in their own published URLs, then have the random choice of alias chosen by Google -- rather than going back and whacking their system administrator with a clue stick and getting the redirects done right, they submit pointless URL change requests.
I suspect that many of these requests are not so pointless to the requester – not implying that DMOZ should care – and that many requests are based on passing of PR rather than any real need for proper domain forwarding by the server.

There is a widely publicized notion that Google treats http://www.mysite.com and http://mysite.com as two different webs in so far as passing PR. If some links are formatted one way, and other links are formatted the other way, PR is theoretically split between them.

Whether or not this is factual, is moot. When the new webmaster discovers this theory, he/she typically embarks on a frantic campaign to standardize link formats. Since the full absolute URI (including www) is the most common convention, if the ODP listing is minus the ‘www’ guess who’s going to get a URL change request.

BTW: a related issue is the ending slash e.g., http://www.mysite.com/. This is the full correct URI. Servers contain a configuration file (for Windows it’s .htaccess) that basically returns a redirect to the browser if the request is for http://www.mysite.com or http://mysite.com. The browser then requests the URI with the slash. That process adds time and overhead to the transaction, resulting in a slower (perhaps unnoticeable) page load.
 

bobrat

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Apr 15, 2003
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Many editors [myself included] try to remember to add a trailing slash if omitted. My understanding is that it's not required in the root URL e.g. www.abc.com or www.abc.com are both ok, apart from the extra fraction of a second you mention. However, I believe inner pages are supposed to have them, [though will usually work ok either way] e.g www.abc.com/shopping - should be www.abc.com/shopping/
 

Kadence

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Dec 1, 2004
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That was a very informative post hutcheson. I was not aware of all of that.

Google does still have problems with the www though, and often sees sites with and without the www as different sites.
 
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