Update request denied incorrectly

Hi there,

I submitted an update request of a site in a category of which I am not the editor. The nature of the change is as follows:

The site sells widjets, and the official title of the site is "Jovial Widjets", the domain is http://www.jovialwidjets.com. However the domain is listed in the Widjet category as "Jovial". I submitted an update request to have the full title listed ("Jovial Widjets"), however it was denied by the editor in question.

Now, I don't want to get the editor in trouble because I am certain he is doing a spectacular job. As well, I do not want to get on anyone's bad side by complaining about that decision because this could reflect negatively on my listed site in the long run.

My questions therefore are:

1. Am I correct in my update request? Should the title listed in DMOZ reflect the company, business, domain and website title listed on the actual site?

2. How would I go about achieving this change (assuming it is correct) without offending anyone and in the quickest method possible?

3. Should I contact a Meta editor and communicate directly with him/her?

Thanks in advance for any courteous replies.

1. Very general question, can hardly be answered without knowing the site we are talking about. In general we try not to repeat the category name in title and description, but we try to have the company name in the title.

2. Changes are done via Update URL request. And from the above I don't think it is abuse.

3. Lot of us folks here.

Hi there,

As per the editing guidelines in the editor's guide:

Do give the official name of the site as the title. Generally, the title will be obvious and prominently displayed on the site.

Do give the official name of the business or entity as the title, if the site is about the business, organization, or other entity (e.g. a company's home page).

Do contain the full form and acronym if the business, organization or other entity is known by both, and both are used on the site.

Click to expand...

Also:

Do not include superfluous keywords, unnecessary symbols and letters, company slogans or promotional language as part of the title.

Click to expand...

Although i realize this is just a "guide", from that information it would seem that an example change exactly like "Jovial Widjets" would be considered completely appropriate.

Could you give me a link to the guide where it indicates you should not include the category in the title?

Also, the listing title and description as it is now does not indicate anything about Widjets. Hence if someone were to view the listing without knowing it is in the Widjet category, they would have no idea what it is that I sell.

The reason I want to get more information about this matter is that I want to be very certain that I am correct in my request prior to bringing attention to the actual site.

Thanks for the responses.

Since you are an editor, maybe you should ask in the internal new editors forum.

Actually, when talking about an affiliated site, this is the place to do it, not in the internal forums.

You're really going to have to give us details in order to get a clear answer. The general answer would be "yes" but it depends on the site and category in question (and keep in mind that for the most part ODP title != site's meta title tag).

I'm sure this information would be useful for editors and non-editors alike.

Aiding submitters and editors in determining the best possible title for any given submission is a benefit for the ODP in general, and I have no reason to believe that a legitimate site title should be altered specifically to remove category keywords.

Hence I would like clarification on official ODP procedure. The guidelines seem to indicate that the official site title is what should be placed as the title of a submission unless it is categorized as keyword spamming.

http://www.jovialwidjets.com/ does not respond and it does not appear to be a valid URL.

Hi Motsa,

Thanks for the response. Yes, generally a site's exact meta title tag is used for SEO so that may not be the best title to use in DMOZ, and even in this case I don't think that would be used.

However, the actual site title itself (not the meta tag) seems reasonable since it is obvious.

So by "yes" do you mean, yes, the official site title (assuming it is reasonable) is what editors should use for titling sites? And submitters should submit and expect the same thing? (in most cases)

Bob: As per my second post I declared that I am not providing the actual information for various reasons. Jovial Widgets is a very parallel example, however.

>The guidelines seem to indicate that the official site title is what should be placed as the title of a submission unless it is categorized as keyword spamming.

No, that's not true at all. It depends altogether on the category. In categories for websites of businesses (i.e. Business, Shopping, Regional/.../Business and Economy, and many other places), then the business name should be the listing title. In categories for real estate, the listing title MUST be agent name, dash, agency name, and nothing else. In categories about artists without their own category, the title must be artist name (generally last name first). When artists get their own category, the rule reverts to the "site title."

In different parts of the directory, different rules rule. And for each category, the editor should ask: "what is the most appropriate rule for this category, based on other similar categories?" I built up some Symphony Orchestra categories -- obviously, even though orchestras are not businesses in any normal sense, their listings should be treated like business listings -- with the name of the organization, not the website header, as the title.

If you are selling widgets, then obviously it's a business site, and the "business name" rule applies. Now, we aren't going to let people abuse us by announcing that their business is named "We-have-the-cheapest-viagra-in-the-world.spam.spam.spam.com" (so the editor still has to make a judgment call to determine where the business name ends and the line of business begins. It's "IBM", not "IBM computers" but "Sun Microsystems," not "Sun."

But the point remains -- you can't take the wrong guideline, misapply it, and expect the editor to give up the responsibility of finding and correctly applying the right guideline.

I said:

> The site sells widjets, and the official title of the site is "Jovial Widjets"

You said:

> In categories for websites of businesses then the business name should be the listing title

> If you are selling widgets, then obviously it's a business site, and the "business name" rule applies.

I said: (in reference to this specific example)

> The guidelines seem to indicate that the official site title is what should be placed as the title of a submission unless it is categorized as keyword spamming.

You said:

> No, that's not true at all.

According to your own post it seems to be true, although certain categories may be excluded or have specific alterations made specific to the category. However since we are talking about a business site titled "Jovial Widgets", it would seem you agree completely with me that the official site title should be used.

Am I incorrect in my understanding of your post?

> But the point remains -- you can't take the wrong guideline, misapply it, and expect the editor to give up the responsibility of finding and correctly applying the right guideline.

I don't see how I am using the wrong guideline. I am using the exact guideline that pertains to deciding on site titles as per the official Editor Guidelines.

I said no such thing. In a business category, the title of the site is NOT EVER taken from the website title, "official" or otherwise.

It's taken from the business name.

Your confusion may be partly caused by the fact that many businesses place their name at the top of the website -- but some don't.

It is the editor's job to determine the business name. Sometimes that is made unnecessarily difficult -- by various means including, as you mention, keyword spamming. But by no means limited to that!

Ah, okay!

So then, if the site title is the same as the business name, then you would agree that that would be used.

> the title of the site is NOT EVER taken from the website title, "official" or otherwise.

What is then the definition of a business name? As in, how would an editor go about determining what the business name is (without using the website title)? How would a submitter make sure their business name is used when listed in the directory?

My making the official name of the business prominent on the site.

By making it verifiable through other sources (phone book, etc).

This feels like you are nitpicking something and we are having to guess blindly at what you are trying to achieve here.

It is quite possible that the update request was denied incorrectly - we make mistakes after all. But thrashing around in the dark like this isn't going to get anyone anywhere, and it won't get the issue that you are bringing up brought to any resolution, one way or the other.

Sounds reasonable. The site title is "Ice Cold T-Shirts", the url is http://www.icecoldtshirts.com, the business name is "Ice Cold T-Shirts" and any charges incurred via payments on the site appear on receipts as "Ice Cold T-Shirts". It is listed in http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Clothing/Casual/T-Shirts/

I want to re-mention that the editor of that category is fantastic as he was responsive to some corrections I suggested in that category and I think he may have simply miss-interpreted this update request.

Currently the title is "Ice Cold", which is not the official business name. Everything else is perfect.

I agree that these questions seem loaded. With the example you gave you can only expect to get general advice. That general advice has been given. Any more detailed advice would require a specific URL. We cannot get into specifics unless a specific URL is given.

In my opinion, this would seem to be an overly strict interpretation of the "don't repeat category names in site titles" guideline.

But that's just my opinion. I try to stay out of Shopping categories.

Ok - let's not play that game again. If people have a question about an interpretation of a guideline it's never good to bandy about hypothetical situations - nothing good every comes of it here It would have been much simpler just to mention the URL and solve the problem instead of making everyone speculate on why something might have been done.

I've changed the title on this listing.