Went to update listing today and noticed site has apparently been removed

dmje · Jun 13, 2005

I went into http://www.dmoz.org/Shopping/Home_and_Garden/Furniture/ today to update my site listing and apparently it has been removed as it now does not appear in the area above.

My site has been listed in the above for quite sometime, approximately a year, is there anyway for me to find out why it suddenly would disappear?

What are my options now? Do I resubmit my site?

I also noticed that my site does appear here:

http://directory.google.com/Top/Shopping/Home_and_Garden/Furniture/ but as I said, not in the dmoz itself. I used the search feature to make sure that my site had not been moved etc and the search did not turn up my site at all.

Any information will be appreciated

My site: http://www.bestofthehome.com

hutcheson · Jun 13, 2005

One possibility is that the old URL had ceased to work, and the site was removed by our link checker.

Another is that the site was reviewed by a human, who in the light of current standards or editor knowledge, determined it was a mistake to have listed it originally, or it was no longer eligible for a listing.

I haven't checked to see which happened -- these days we try to keep our advice general.

All you can do now is suggest the site as if it were a new site -- the editor will have to treat it as one.

dmje · Jun 13, 2005

Am I understanding this correctly, According to the paragraph below, a site cannot be a "dropshipper" of merchandise and get listed.

"This means identify the business that actually provides the goods and services described in the website. (Not "takes orders". Not "collects leads". Not "promotes and advertises." The business that does the real work.) Make VERY VERY sure that (1) that business is not already listed in the directory, and (2) IF there is any other site on the web that ALSO offers the same company's goods and services, make sure that ANY SURFER (including the ODP editor) can tell this site is the official one, not some "independent" "affiliate" or "marketer" or "drop-shipper". Get the OTHER sites (if any) straightened out: take them down, or get them linked together like an honest company who isn't afraid to be everywhere known by the same name. And then, when (or if) the site is really the verifiable unique official site of the actual product producer, submit it.

Are you saying that if a website sells products on the site that are purchased and shipped to the customer via a dropship program with a wholesaler, that they cannot be listed??

Also, what if company ABC, has multiple websites and they sell mostly all of the same products on each of the different sites, can both sites be listed since they are all part of the same company or can only one be listed?

dmje · Jun 13, 2005

hutcheson said:
One possibility is that the old URL had ceased to work, and the site was removed by our link checker.

Another is that the site was reviewed by a human, who in the light of current standards or editor knowledge, determined it was a mistake to have listed it originally, or it was no longer eligible for a listing.

I haven't checked to see which happened -- these days we try to keep our advice general.

All you can do now is suggest the site as if it were a new site -- the editor will have to treat it as one.

Hutcheson,

Thank you for your quick response. The url of the site did not change, I wanted to do the update to make a one word change to the name of the site, so I am wondering if the disappearance has to do with your second suggestion. I have resubmitted the site an time will tell. I am however somewhat confused as to the rules for listing to that particular area.

My company, DMJ Enterprises, has multiple sites, of which http://www.bestofthehome.com, is one of, we sell many different kinds of products to the end consumer via the dropship method with our wholesale partners, is this not allowed for the shopping/home and garden/furniture category?

Thanks,

spectregunner · Jun 13, 2005

Nope.

spectregunner · Jun 13, 2005

Are you saying that if a website sells products on the site that are purchased and shipped to the customer via a dropship program with a wholesaler, that they cannot be listed??

If that is all they do, then they are not eligible for a listing.

Also, what if company ABC, has multiple websites and they sell mostly all of the same products on each of the different sites, can both sites be listed since they are all part of the same company or can only one be listed?

A good working rule of thumb is one company: one website. Just because some company decides to spread its business across 17 websites does not obligate us to even consider the 17 websites.

hutcheson · Jun 13, 2005

>Are you saying that if a website sells products on the site that are purchased and shipped to the customer via a dropship program with a wholesaler, that they cannot be listed??

We'll happily list the wholesaler. If they wish, THEY can link to their preferred order-taker page(s).

This is not a new problem. Vstore (a.k.a. SMC etc.) and their shills were sending us dozens of pages daily, even back in the last millenium. It did not amuse, but it did build a reputation (you find a Vstore order-taker page listed, and a dozen editors will drop everything to go expunge it) and establish a precedent.

>Also, what if company ABC, has multiple websites and they sell mostly all of the same products on each of the different sites, can both sites be listed since they are all part of the same company or can only one be listed?

We call those sites "fraternal mirrors". Yes, absolutely, they are "related sites" for the purpose of applying the death penalty mentioned in the submittal policies.

Such companies are STRONGLY recommended to (1) make SURE that only ONE of those sites EVER gets suggested; and (2) if an editor goes to another of their fraternal mirrors WITHOUT it having been suggested, that it is very clear how to get back to the "real" (main) company website.

These kind of things you describe are not "spam"; they are considered "devious malicious spam", and targeting the ODP with them is (as the submittal policies state) the most evil thing that can be done as a submitter.

What's so evil?

Remember, the ODP is about information. A business site needs to answer the question "who are you, and what do you do for money?"

A drop-ship order taker isn't information, it is disinformation. "I claim to be doing this for money, but I won't tell you who actually does it." It's a lie, pure and simple.

(Back when we supplied individual site statuses, we had a vstore doorway-keeper FURIOUS with us, because after her site was rejected, she badgered editors until someone let slip the fact that we knew she was a vspammer -- and since that was in our public forum, her customers could see it ... and ... because of that accurate information publicly available, a big customer chose not to do business with her any more. And she claimed that Vstore, like a cocaine wholesaler, contractually binds order-takers to keep the relationship secret.)

That is just flat not honest. If it is not outright criminal fraud, still, the mere fact that society tolerates that kind of deception -- that shoppers aren't taught from birth to avoid it like an Ebola outbreak -- gives unlimited unquenchable opportunities for outright criminal fraud.

No, there are surely thousands of genuine little shops out there, providing their own unique goods and services, and depending on the net to find customers. The Vstore spammers try to bury the real little guys in doorway spam. Who wouldn't sympathize with the little guys? Who WOULD sympathize with the bully with a thousand fright masks (each claiming to be a "little guy")?

dmje · Jun 13, 2005

spectregunner said:
Nope.

I do not understand why this is not allowed. It seems to me that the site meets the submission guidelines:

Submission guidelines include that the web site itself actually be a means of selling the Furniture products. Thus, appropriate product images and descriptions, specific product pricing and a means of ordering from the web site itself are required to qualify as a "Shopping" site.
Sites advertising a local store without online shopping should be submitted to the appropriate Regional category. Non-English sites should be submitted to the appropriate World category. Wholesale or Business should be submitted to the appropriate Business category. With few exceptions, sites are listed in the directory in one category only.

Sites which sell Furniture used in the home are listed in this category. Please note that web sites listed in this or any Furniture Shopping category must be the "means of selling" the furniture, and therefore must properly display and describe the products for sale, give specific prices and provide a means of ordering the product from the site itself.

I properly display and describe the products for sale and give specific prices and have online ordering available from the site itself, therefore, I dont understand the exclusion.

dmje · Jun 13, 2005

hutcheson said:
>Are you saying that if a website sells products on the site that are purchased and shipped to the customer via a dropship program with a wholesaler, that they cannot be listed??

We'll happily list the wholesaler. If they wish, THEY can link to their preferred order-taker page(s).

This is not a new problem. Vstore (a.k.a. SMC etc.) and their shills were sending us dozens of pages daily, even back in the last millenium. It did not amuse, but it did build a reputation (you find a Vstore order-taker page listed, and a dozen editors will drop everything to go expunge it) and establish a precedent.

>Also, what if company ABC, has multiple websites and they sell mostly all of the same products on each of the different sites, can both sites be listed since they are all part of the same company or can only one be listed?

We call those sites "fraternal mirrors". Yes, absolutely, they are "related sites" for the purpose of applying the death penalty mentioned in the submittal policies.

Such companies are STRONGLY recommended to (1) make SURE that only ONE of those sites EVER gets suggested; and (2) if an editor goes to another of their fraternal mirrors WITHOUT it having been suggested, that it is very clear how to get back to the "real" (main) company website.

These kind of things you describe are not "spam"; they are considered "devious malicious spam", and targeting the ODP with them is (as the submittal policies state) the most evil thing that can be done as a submitter.

What's so evil?

Remember, the ODP is about information. A business site needs to answer the question "who are you, and what do you do for money?"

A drop-ship order taker isn't information, it is disinformation. "I claim to be doing this for money, but I won't tell you who actually does it." It's a lie, pure and simple.

(Back when we supplied individual site statuses, we had a vstore doorway-keeper FURIOUS with us, because after her site was rejected, she badgered editors until someone let slip the fact that we knew she was a vspammer -- and since that was in our public forum, her customers could see it ... and ... because of that accurate information publicly available, a big customer chose not to do business with her any more. And she claimed that Vstore, like a cocaine wholesaler, contractually binds order-takers to keep the relationship secret.)

That is just flat not honest. If it is not outright criminal fraud, still, the mere fact that society tolerates that kind of deception -- that shoppers aren't taught from birth to avoid it like an Ebola outbreak -- gives unlimited unquenchable opportunities for outright criminal fraud.

No, there are surely thousands of genuine little shops out there, providing their own unique goods and services, and depending on the net to find customers. The Vstore spammers try to bury the real little guys in doorway spam. Who wouldn't sympathize with the little guys? Who WOULD sympathize with the bully with a thousand fright masks (each claiming to be a "little guy")?

Well I dont quite know what to say after that tirade....we are certainly not like SMC etc. No, We dont carry an inventory of the items we sell and dont tell our customers where we purchase our products for resale, so I guess that makes it in your words..... "... a lie, pure and simple."

We are just trying to make an honest living just like your so called "little guy" well you cant get much smaller than we are....just a home based business trying to make a few extra bucks....

We are not "order takers" for the wholesalers, we have accounts setup with them to purchase their products at wholesale pricing for resale on our website, the only difference between us and some of the larger companies is that we do not carry an inventory, the items are ordered and paid for by us but shipped directly from the warehouse, under our name and logo, to the customer.

Using the logic of your last post, then most all of the websites listed in the shopping categories should not be allowed, I am 100% certain that all of them do not manufacture and ship all the products they sell.They buy from vendors and resell the product just as we do, so their wholesaler and not them should be listed. It appears that just because we do not carry inventory, and ship the item ourselves, we are being penalized.

If we meet the submission guidelines for the particular category, how can we be excluded? On a whim of the editor? We sell the the product, we have product images and complete descriptions, we have clearly stated prices and shipping costs and have a means to place an online order on the site.

Category: Shopping: Home and Garden: Furniture

Submission guidelines include that the web site itself actually be a means of selling the Furniture products. Thus, appropriate product images and descriptions, specific product pricing and a means of ordering from the web site itself are required to qualify as a "Shopping" site.

I am certain that all of this ranting and raving will mean nothing in the end, Our site will either get relisted or it wont, its just that simple.

I have stated my case as to the facts of why we should not be excluded.....that is all I can do, it now up to the editor of that particular category....all we can do is wait....

motsa · Jun 13, 2005

the only difference between us and some of the larger companies is that we do not carry an inventory, the items are ordered and paid for by us but shipped directly from the warehouse, under our name and logo, to the customer.

Using the logic of your last post, then most all of the websites listed in the shopping categories should not be allowed, I am 100% certain that all of them do not manufacture and ship all the products they sell.They buy from vendors and resell the product just as we do, so their wholesaler and not them should be listed. It appears that just because we do not carry inventory, and ship the item ourselves, we are being penalized.

If we meet the submission guidelines for the particular category, how can we be excluded? On a whim of the editor? We sell the the product, we have product images and complete descriptions, we have clearly stated prices and shipping costs and have a means to place an online order on the site.

You can be excluded because you do not meet the requirements for being listed in the ODP, plain and simple. We do not list sites that use dropshipping. Period. It's not something that is at the whim of any editor; it is a blanket policy though sometimes mistakes are made.

If you know of other sites that are listed that are using dropshippers, please feel free to report them using our public abuse reporting form at http://report-abuse.dmoz.org .

motsa · Jun 13, 2005

<note: I merged your two threads together so the posts above may not appear in proper sequence>

dmje · Jun 13, 2005

motsa said:
<note: I merged your two threads together so the posts above may not appear in proper sequence>

well if you exclude dropshippers, then the site submission guidelines need to be changed to reflect that. If you would please direct me to the submission guideline that states that sites who dropship are excluded. When a site is submitted, do your editors take the time to determine if they dropship products, they must, otherwise how would they know??

I think your "blanket policy"against "dropshippers" is completely unfair and abritrary and discrimiatory, unfortunately there are no laws, at present, against what you are doing, I certainly would avail myself upon them if there were, would make a nice discrimination lawsuit in my opinion.
Makes one believe that the rumors being heard about abusive editors, corruption, bribery etc within the ODP are are true. Apparently, policy can be set and applied as one sees fit, if your not part of the "good ole boy" network with the editors then POOF!! your not listed or your site has a tendancy to vanish

Alucard · Jun 13, 2005

dmje said:
I think your "blanket policy"against "dropshippers" is completely unfair and abritrary and discrimiatory,

You are entitled to your viewpoint, as I hope the ODP is entitled to theirs.

If you would please direct me to the submission guideline that states that sites who dropship are excluded.

This falls under the interpretation of what is defined to be unique and useful content.

When a site is submitted, do your editors take the time to determine if they dropship products, they must, otherwise how would they know??

I think you have answered you own question.

Apparently, policy can be set and applied as one sees fit,

Yes, exactly. This applies to every one of the web directories out there - they set policies and standards for what they list. Some are public, some are private.

The ODP builds what it believes to be a useful directory of web sites for surfers. One person's meat is another person's poisson, of course, and it is quite possible that what you believe should be in the directory is different from what someone else should.

hutcheson · Jun 13, 2005

The ODP policy has changed in this respect, as a result of editor experience: at first, drop-shippers were not recognized to be the same type of problem for surfers as affiliate doorway pages. Vstore educated us, but even then we were slower to recognize the general problem because of the disinformation factor -- vstore clones, like amazon clones, were easy to spot. The next stage of our understanding probably came partly from sites like HotelNow, that started showing their doorways how to "conceal" the fact that they were doorways to better deceive editors and other surfers. Eventually we figured out that pattern also. Another critical step in our understanding was a plague of "blind lead generators", which educated us about the difference between a website providing information (which is what we list) and a website that collects it (which we figured out, we couldn't list because there was no information given out -- so by definition we couldn't review it. The final step was, perhaps, and asking whether we were consistent and fair with across the board with respect to various kinds of doorways, and particularly asking how "drop-shipping" differed from all the other flavors of of NON-service-providing advertising/promotional/marketing doorway.

oneeye · Jun 13, 2005

I think your "blanket policy"against "dropshippers" is completely unfair and abritrary and discrimiatory, unfortunately there are no laws, at present, against what you are doing, I certainly would avail myself upon them if there were, would make a nice discrimination lawsuit in my opinion.

I've heard of laws to prevent discrimination against people on the grounds of sex, race, religion, sexual preference, disability, never against people who are drop-shippers. How would that work then? I go to buy a chair but because I buy from a store with their own stock I can get sued by a couple of thousand drop shippers? I've heard of some weird and wacky laws but I don't think there is a legislature anywhere on the planet that mad. Whilst DMOZ provides a privately financed, privately operated resource for surfers it remains a DMOZ right to decide what to include and what to exclude, operating by its rules not yours. Sorry. We list selected sellers of goods that they keep in their own warehouse or manufacture themselves - those are our rules. If you don't like them then find a directory that is happy to list other types of business. They exist - all you have to do is look for them.

lkevinl · Jun 14, 2005

What the heck?!? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but when you say that dropshippers will not be listed in ODP, does that include companies that warehouse their products with a 3rd party shipper like a "Pick 'n Pack" operation or does this just apply to companies that take an order for products of a 3rd parth and then drop-ship the products of that 3rd party from the 3rd party's warehouse?
Startup companies without the resources to warehouse their own products often use 3rd party "pick 'n pack" companies to warehouse their products and then pick and pack and ship the orders for them. This is not considered dropping shipping is it?

motsa · Jun 14, 2005

Can you give us an example?

lkevinl · Jun 14, 2005

Sure... my wife works for an Australian company selling their products to retail stores with some retail internet business directly to consumers. She started their operations here in the states. In the beginning, it was just her, so she had all of her companies products shipped from Australia to and stored in a 3rd party warehouse. They're called fulfillment centers or pick-n-pack warehouses. When an order comes in, wholesale or internet, the order is sent to her "pick-n-pack" warehouse and they pick the products from their shelves, pack them and ship them to the customer. The products shipped are mostly wholesale to retail stores but all internet orders are shipped to consumers directly the same way.
Essentially, it is outsourcing your warehouse operations. It's a great way to start but becomes less cost effective as you grow. She's now in her own warehouse. Pick-n-pack is very common but can look like drop shipping. I think there is a difference. I guess I'm not sure what you're considering drop shipping. Are you talking about if a person has a web site selling a 3rd party's products from that 3rd party's warehouse or from a 4th party's warehouse, that would be dropping shipping and not listable?

When I think of drop shipping, I think of SMC or those other big infomercial companies that sucker people into trying to sell their products door to door or on the web. I'm not a big fan and I could see how listing websites that do this could be considered affiliates, etc. That's is quite a bit different than the person who designs and manufactures some products and then uses a 3rd party fulfillment center to outsource the warehouse and shipping operations to save cost and in some cases garage space! Not a reason not to be listed though.

hutcheson · Jun 14, 2005

If a company designs and manufactures something, then obviously they are offering both unique services and unique goods. Such a company has ample scope for creating a website containing an authoritative description of those goods and services, and that would indeed be listable.

So, how little can a "company" do, and still offer something unique? A fair question. Another thing editors can do (and often will do) is "triage" -- that is, go through search results or site submittals, eliminate the obvious spam, redirect the obvious off-topic, list the obviously listable, and ... leave the borderline cases for later inspiration or retrospection. The real gems get screened more quickly, and after they are listed, then it is clearer what might be lacking in the category: and of the borderline cases, one could pick what would do most towards making sure the category comprehensively covers all on the web that is unique.

lissa · Jun 15, 2005

It is not the method of shipment that is the issue, it is a question of where uniqueness lies. In Shopping, the uniqueness is the products themselves. One company manufacturing and selling their own products is fine. That company would get a listing. One company manufacturing their own products and then selling them through independent distributors or affiliate relationships, still only gets one listing for the company that is the source of the products. From the perspective of the ODP, the distribution network for the products is all under the control of the company providing the goods and all part of the same business, and the rule-of-thumb one company-one listing tends to apply.

It is pretty clear to spot the one to one manufacturer/distributor relationships. But even when one distributor/affiliate is representing multiple manufacturers, the logic still applies. The distributor is not the source of the products, the manufacturers are. It is only when a distributor/affiliate starts actually handling their own mix of products from multiple manufacturers in retail stores or their own (or outsourced) warehouse distribution centers that we treat them as retailers and consider them for a separate listing, because by this point they are adding unique content in the form of their choices of products to offer and their company services.

I understand that this policy is frustrating for the affiliates and independent distributors, but I think this is rooted in a desire to use the ODP for marketing, which is NOT its intended purpose.

If ODP had its way, I'm sure we would like to list somehow each and every product just once. Until then, we'll tease apart the who's-buying-what-from-whom-and-then-repackaging-it-for-resale-at-a-profit tangle as best we can.

Went to update listing today and noticed site has apparently been removed

dmje

Banned

hutcheson

dmje

Banned

dmje

Banned

spectregunner

Member

spectregunner

Member

hutcheson

dmje

Banned

dmje

Banned

motsa

motsa

dmje

Banned

Alucard

Member

hutcheson

oneeye

Member

lkevinl

Member

motsa

lkevinl

Member

hutcheson

lissa

Member