What does the "star" mean, other questions

Hi,

I have tried to get my web portal listed for years without success- under the category "International Business and Trade" - specifically "Directories". This has been really frustrating because one of my competitors "TradePort" gets top billing under this category, and they don't even have a directory! Could someone tell me what the "star" in front of their name means? - and if anyone still edits this secton?

I have volunteered to be an editor, not to get myself listed, but because I do believe organizing this material could be a useful resource to use on other websites, and I have some good experience in this area. Does anyone know how long this might take? I'm actually thinking of starting a Wiki on "International Business and Trade" if I never get a response.

Rob Gordon

<URL and phone number pseudo signature removed>

You presumably meant this category.

The * means that some editor thought that it was the coolest site in the category. That one site has been cooled doesn't prevent others from being listed.

Over 250 editors can edit that category if they so wish.

The category has a large pile of suggested websites - too large for a newbie.

International Business and Trade / Directories

Jim,

Thanks for your response. The directories categories may be too much for a "newbie" but those 250 editors aren't doing so hot of a job either. That category is totally dead and hasn't changed much in years.

As I mentioned, the "TradePort.org" site not only doesn't have a directory, they don't have much functionality at all. They do however, get tons of traffic from listings in sites like dmoz. I recently tried to find out how they got so much traffic and such a great listing on Google, and checked them out on Alexa. Since at one time they were a decent site supported by the Commerce Department, they got a ton of inbound links- but all these are from really dead sites like dmoz, and no one can get listed with any of them anymore.

This is really unfair to newer, better sites that have really worked to innovate and put quality services on their sites. Again, I volunteered because I though this could be a really good resource, but right now it is doing more harm than good.

Rob

Thanks for your response. The directories categories may be too much for a "newbie" but those 250 editors aren't doing so hot of a job either. That category is totally dead and hasn't changed much in years.

Click to expand...

I think that's a bit unfair when you consider how many other categories there are for those 250 or so (editall+) editors to be looking after...

If you're interested, details of the numbers of categories, editors, and sites can be found in the monthly ODP Reports.

<bites tongue>

International Business and Trade / Directories

Chaos,

It may be slightly unfair, but not nearly as unfair as it is to the people who have tried repeatedly to get listed, but have had no success even though their services are better and more innovative than the ancient listings on dmoz.

As I mentioned, my competitor, "TradePort.org" has top billing in that section, even though they don't even have any directory, or much functionality at all for that matter. There are only 14 listings total in that entire section- and I believe it has been that way for years; and only one or two of those are even major players in the International Directory business.

Even if each of those 250 editors only added one listing every couple of years, this section would be thousands of times greater by now. I'm not disparaging their efforts, all I am saying is for this particular section something about the way dmoz model is unfair.

Rob

The ODP concept of "equity" is based strictly on value for surfers. Webmasters are simply not a concern.

Your concern is for webmasters, and ... I'll not criticize it. You're always free to express that concern by actions ... at least, on any site where that concern is socially acceptable. At the ODP, we have a word for it: "abuse." Not because it's necessarily evil in and of itself, but because it is treacherous to use ODP privileges given for a completely different purpose. Just like giving money to needy people is good, but using your teller privileges at the local bank to take that money ... isn't socially acceptable, but IS criminal.

International Business and Trade / Directories

Hutcheson,

Yes, I was partly talking about fairness (not value) to webmasters, but only in the sense that I would like to add that directory section to my site as a more or less "official" listing of trade directories.

Those 14 listings though, remnants of some ancient era, are not just unfair to "webmasters" it has no almost no value to "surfers" either- in fact it is virtually worthless. Here is the link: http://dmoz.org/Business/International_Business_and_Trade/Directories/
Can you really tell me honestly that you disagree?

Again, I have tried for years to get a listing, and volunteered to help because I thought it still had potential to be a good resource. As I mentioned, if I can't make anything happen here, I am thinking of starting a Wiki on this topic if anyone is interested.

Rob

A good reason for applying to be an editor is to feel you can improve the directory. Usually a new editor is encouraged to start in a small category to learn the ropes (tools, guidelines, protocols etc) and then they find their own level in the structure. The problem is understanding the directory enough to make a contribution since it is not only about listing sites.

There is often a difficulty with 'topic' categories since they encompass such a huge area that just coping with the scope is beyond the abilities of editors with some experience (e.g. me I gave up on understanding 'Shoes' - turned out to be too complicated ). It is not the topic itself, it is the structuring of the category, its relationship to other categories and all the behind-the-scenes work that one needs to get the hang of.

Working in a small category allows one to learn the skills required to work in larger areas or realise that perhaps thats not for you. If you make mistakes whilst you learn, they are easily rectified whereas if you start at the top, mistakes ramify downwards and outwards...

Hence an apparantly moribund category is better than one that is being actively mangled which then requires a lot of effort to correct. One day an editor with the skills and interest in the subject will appear and can devote quality time to improving it. Until then it will be maintained as and when editors with the time and inclination to do so pop in.

This is where surfers can help by updating urls which may no longer fit the category or are dead.

regards

i wondered what the * ment.. thx

It may be slightly unfair, but not nearly as unfair as it is to the people who have tried repeatedly to get listed, but have had no success even though their services are better and more innovative than the ancient listings on dmoz.

Click to expand...

Remember that the ODP is provided by volunteers as a free service to surfers. You can see how many volunteers there are, and how many sites are added each month. What would be really unfair is if we dropped all our other work to concentrate on the category that you're interested in.

Yes, there are lots of categories which would probably benefit from more editor attention. But how do we decide where editors should edit? We use the only way that works -- each volunteer editor is free to choose how much they work and where they work (providing they've been granted permissions to edit there). You obviously think that the ODP could do with some more help, so are you prepared to put in the effort required to work with us to help do something about it?

Becoming an editor isn't rocket science. If you read the editing guidelines and FAQs in this forum, you should have all the information you need to be able to write a good application (or if not you probably wouldn't make a very good editor). You probably won't get the category you're after straight away (it's a bit big for a beginner, and joining just to list your own site is not a good idea), but once you're an editor you can apply for larger categories once you've shown they know what they're doing in a smaller one.

AFAIK, all editor applications receive responses -- and reasons for rejection if that's the outcome. If you've applied more than 14 days ago and haven't heard anything yet, you can post in the "Becoming an Editor" forum to find out if it's still pending.

Did you think to include dummy account login details when you suggested your website? It's impossible to evaluate it properly without registration.

If you didn't you can resubmit and append them to a proposed description like this . The new submission will replace the old and the login won't be published. Editors might subsequently use it from time to time for QC purposes.

Eric,

Thanks for your note- at least I think you "get it" as far as where I am coming from. When you say though, "Hence an apparantly moribund category is better than one that is being actively mangled which then requires a lot of effort to correct".

I'm not sure I agree- this might be true if the top level was an abstract list of categories, instead of actual sites- the DMOZ is used as the "brain" for all the search engines that have no brains- i.e. are just robots. Thats why I said I think, at least in this case, DMOZ is doing more harm than good. The listings in that section are mostly historical artifacts. Even if someone does something better, more innovative and of greater value, they still have very little chance of being listed- and this judgement is picked up by the search engines- Goggle, Yahoo, etc.

I came to this forum because I have submitted my site so many times over the years, and never got any response at all, while my competitor "TradePort.org" gets absolutely top billing and a star in the highest level category- for a site with zero functionality. I just decided it was time to get to the bottom of this.

I did my own review of the "International Business and Trade / Directories" secton and found that even though this section has only 14 listings, about half of them have some serious problem- are there are even some broken links. Here are my notes (my comments in italics):

TradePort - Easy-to-use tool offering one place to go for comprehensive trade information, events calendar, market research, trade leads, and company databases.

Top level "star" listing- has no directory!! - and really none of the other things listed either. Shouldn't be here at all.

Bookservices - Purchase wholesale directories.

Incorrect link, it goes to a site called "Taiwan Trade Directory".

Clearfacts.com - Directory available to subscribers who pay a fee.

Broken link- there is apparently no longer a site at this address.

ECeurope - Offers business to business resources for the world. Trade leads, links, offers to buy, offers to sell and business opportunities.

OK, but people in the business would recognize this as a simple repackanging of Worldbid.com - their are thosands of them, why do these guys get a top level listing?

ESOMAR - More than 1200 entries are included from all over the world, displaying information on market research organisations.

OK- but 1200 is really a very minor directory for a top level listing.


FITA Web Resources for International Trade - Annotated links to numerous informational sites with international trade resources.

OK

Foreign Trade On-Line - Access to world-wide importers, exporters, manufacturers, freight forwarders, trade resources, statistics, market information, products, trade events, package tracking

OK

GlobalEDGE - Business knowledge portal connecting professionals worldwide to information, insights, and learning resources on global business activities.

Miscategorized. The description is accurate, but there is no directory on this site.

Kompass - Worldwide business purchasing and marketing directory.

OK.

MuslimTrade Network - Export/import business trade reference sources directory for Muslim countries. Classified ads, chatrooms, discussion boards, and trade guidelines for over 30 countries.

OK

21st Century Commerce Centre - World trade, investing, travel, shopping and E-Commerce newsletter.

There is no directory on this site. It seems to be a site for promoting a trade show.

Tpage - Source for B2B international trade offering numerous services, including company directory and trade leads.

OK - access to any information requires registration, probably should be mentioned.

WLW - European business directory of manufacturers and suppliers.

OK - site is only for German speaking countries- probably should be mentioned.

robmarkg said:

I did my own review of the "International Business and Trade / Directories" secton and found that even though this section has only 14 listings, about half of them have some serious problem- are there are even some broken links. Here are my notes (my comments in italics):

TradePort - Easy-to-use tool offering one place to go for comprehensive trade information, events calendar, market research, trade leads, and company databases.

Top level "star" listing- has no directory!! - and really none of the other things listed either. Shouldn't be here at all.

Click to expand...

Did you happen to click on the link called "Trade Leads"?

Imocr wrote:
"Did you happen to click on the link called "Trade Leads"?"

Presuming you are talking about the "TradePort.org" system that someone many years ago gave top billing, yes, I checked out the "Trade Leads" link. That is just a cookie cutter site done by Worldbid.com - they do thousands of them (as is ECeurope, that I also wrote about). Anyone with a domain name can get such a site- it is not original content. Just go to: http://www.worldbidpartners.com/. Again, the TradePort.org site has no directory- and it has top billing in the directories section!

The point is that by giving such creedence to sites that got listed eons ago, and making it nearly impossible for newer sites to get listed, DMOZ really punishes innovation.

Rob

Chaos wrote:
"Becoming an editor isn't rocket science. If you read the editing guidelines and FAQs in this forum, you should have all the information you need to be able to write a good application (or if not you probably wouldn't make a very good editor). You probably won't get the category you're after straight away (it's a bit big for a beginner, and joining just to list your own site is not a good idea), but once you're an editor you can apply for larger categories once you've shown they know what they're doing in a smaller one."

I have already submittted my application, and no- I did not make the offer just to get a listing, there is no way that would be worth it, in fack I have already put more effort into this than would be worthwhile just for a listing. I did it because I am interested in the area of international trade directories andtrade lead portals. In fact, as I already mentioned, I am thinking of starting a Wiki on this topic as I think it may be a far less bureaucratic way to go about it. That the area where I have interests, and I don't know why there would be a concern about a "beginne" working on it- seriously, anyone could do better than what is there now.

Rob

I did my own review of the "International Business and Trade / Directories" secton

Click to expand...

That was the easy bit

When you say though, "Hence an apparantly moribund category is better than one that is being actively mangled which then requires a lot of effort to correct".
I'm not sure I agree

Click to expand...

A good example is one category that I am working through where someone added a lot of sites but the descriptions are not guideline compliant. Being sure that a keen new editor understands the guidelines is more important than them adding lots of sites.

To be honest, it is impossible to say what anyone will find difficult once inside the ODP. Everyone has varying skills and mindsets and what is simple and clear to one person is not so for another and, of course, different areas require different understandings

Because everyone is diferent, the best way is to get people to start simply, show what they can do and proceed accordingly. It may seem a bit pedantic from outside but 'serving an apprenticeship' gives you time to find your feet and people to get to know you.

Anyway good luck with the application.

regards

(Sorry about the late reply - this is due to two days of Summer holiday outings with grandchildren - too exhausted to do anything more than be glad that I can return them to their parents at the end of the day).

Eric wrote: "To be honest, it is impossible to say what anyone will find difficult once inside the ODP"

Eric, I never said that there was anything difficult about ODP- just that it is misleading. The "top level" international directory category only has one directory that should even be there. As I mentioned, I have tried for years to get my site listed without any luck- my directory has 10,000 listings, so it is not huge, but it is bigger than many there- and it is certainly better than TradePort.org which has no directory at all, and I hope you will agree that it is at least better than the broken links.

I've already volunteered to be editor so I am not sure what else I can do. Maybe the 250 editors who work on that section and its 14 listings have become paralyzed because there are so many of them and that's why it hasn't changed in so many years. I will try to re-write that section over the weekend, and I will share the information with DMOZ if you want. I assume I am blacklisted here and will never be listed, but I thought someone should express the opinion that DMOZ seems to celebrate the old and static, and has a built in bias against anything new and innovative.

Rob

I've already volunteered to be editor so I am not sure what else I can do. Maybe the 250 editors who work on that section and its 14 listings have become paralyzed because there are so many of them and that's why it hasn't changed in so many years. I will try to re-write that section over the weekend, and I will share the information with DMOZ if you want. I assume I am blacklisted here and will never be listed, but I thought someone should express the opinion that DMOZ seems to celebrate the old and static, and has a built in bias against anything new and innovative.

Click to expand...

Rob, we would all be a bit better off if you would please just take a deep breath and not feel so obliged to get a "dig" in with every post.

And while you are deep beathing, let me see if I can add a bit of clarity.

Yes there are 250 or so editor who can edit in that category, that does not mean there are 250 editors who do edit in that category. Let's do some math. There are about 700,000 categories, and fewer than 10,000 active editors. Of those 10,000, some 250 can edit anywhere in the directory. The others can edit in large section, small sections, big branches and little branches. Most new editors can only edit in very small categories until they get experience, and as they gain experience they will edit more and more categories. To give you an example, I am wihtin sight of 20,000 edits and I can edit in one moderately large category (and all of its subcategories) and seven or eight smaller, unrelated categories. Even in my permissions never grow, in all probablity, I will never, in my lifetime, edit in all the categories where I currently have permissions -- and no, I am not one of the 250. Not even close. Probably soething else that will neverr happen in my ever-decreasing lifetime.

OK, so you've found a category that maybe hasn't been kept current. It happens. It happens a lot. We're not happy about it, but it does happen.

So, what can you do?

Well, you can "bust our chops" about it, but frankly that is not going to motivate us to do it, any more than having you spouse scream at you to mow the lawn will get you off the couch during the Super Bowl.

You've said you've applied to become an editor. Thank you for that, but that category is entirely too large for a novice editor. You don't get to do airframe repair on a Beoing 747 until you've patch a lot of skin on a Piper Cub. No one starts at the top, everyone starts at the bottom. There are probably 200,000 places we would define as bottom, so there is a lot of variety there, and if you are genuinely interested in becoming an editor -- for the sake of becoming an editor -- find a nice, small category and apply (and think of the application as a job application , for that is truly what it is.)

If you don'y want to, or cannot become an editor, that does not mean we close the door to possible assistance. We welcome your assistance and have a very special place set up where you can help. That thread is a place where you can report things such as broken links, hijacks, dead sites, and the like. The reports need to be factual and I encourage you to read the last 100 or so postings to get a feel for the best way to provide your information. Please don't to try and rewrite the titles and descriptions, that is what we do best.

This approach is really good when one has a passion for a category or branch of the tree. It is a measure of our appreciation for this type fo reporting that several of our most senior editors dedicate a lot of their editing time to workig on sites that are reported there.

Please be aware that it is not a place to campaign to get a given site listed, nor to encourge/beg/plead for an editor to go work a given category.

Also, please remember that when an editor reviews a listing it is not a competitive sport. The editor does not compate Site A and Site B and decide to only site the best of the two.

Finally, as part of our mea culpa we also recognize that not all sites currently listed would be worthy of being listed if they were reviewed today. Perhaps if we had less spam and more quality suggestions....but I digress.

OK, I hope you take this in the spirit it is offered. By the way, we don't blacklist sites because their owners irritate us. We might ban forum participation fro particularly obnoxious behavior, but I can assure you that we have listed sites belonging to some of the biggest ********** in the world. Shucks, you haven't even scratch the surface in terms of getting under our skin.

Now go find some bad listings and report them!

Spectregunner wrote:
"Rob, we would all be a bit better off if you would please just take a deep breath and not feel so obliged to get a "dig" in with every post"

I am not trying to get a "dig" in, but since I have tried for years to get listed here I just decided to try to get to the bottom of it. I have found an attitude here- with the exception of I think Eric and one other, that I do think is the root cause of the problem. i.e. that everyone should start at the bottom, mopping floors or whatever, but the "higher level" categories are sacroscanct because they have been done by the elders and must never be touched.

You've said you've applied to become an editor. Thank you for that, but that category is entirely too large for a novice editor.

Just for the record, that category (trade directories) has only 14 listings, and the entire International Business and Trade section has only about 1,200- it is not that big.

You don't get to do airframe repair on a Beoing 747 until you've patch a lot of skin on a Piper Cub. No one starts at the top, everyone starts at the bottom.

Directories and trade portals are what I know, and that is what I applied for. I would not be nearly as competent being an editor for retail sites, or book clubs or as you put ti "patching skin on a Piper Cub". if I get rejected for that offer I get rejected- I am certainly not going to spend any time "lobbying" for volunteer work.

Please be aware that it is not a place to campaign to get a given site listed, nor to encourge/beg/plead for an editor to go work a given category.

I am not "begging or pleading" to get my site listed or to get you to improve the directories section- I do have a life. If it gets rejected or ignored still again I guess there is nothing I can do. I have already offered to help improve those listings and to share the information with DMOZ. I'll be replacing the Wiki technology on my server in the next few days and will likely ask for help from one of the larger international business forums we sponsor. If anyone is interested in this project please let me know.

Now go find some bad listings and report them!

I already have.