Why is www.motorcyclecity.com not listed in rec/motorcycles?

2wheelin · Apr 2, 2004

Hello DMOZ,

www.MotorcycleCity.com is basically the #2 ranked "motorcycle" site in Google, Yahoo, and the other major engines (behind #1 ranked www.motorcycle.com). I have submitted it to DMOZ several times in the past (since 1997) but still do not see it listed in the category:
http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Motorcycles/

I have 2 questions about DMOZ:

1. With sites like www.houstoncycleinsurance.com (an insurance company) and www.mtcvoyager.com (a parts kit for one make of machine) listed under this 'primary' category, I'm confused as to why we (a portal/publication site) are not. If you feel Motorcycle City is not appropriate for a listing here, please tell me what we're missing.

2. What will be the consequences of Google dropping DMOZ from their main page?

I had given up on ever getting added but I would like to use the DMOZ feed (with DMOZ credits and links) in our Search program and I can't really see doing so if Motorcycle City is not included in your database.

Although a commercial site, we are a free, open resource and all contributors are volunteers. We support open source programming and a free internet. Years of work have gone into our site, I hope you feel we are deserving of a listing.

Thanks for your time and any advice offered!

______________

No offense to the sites I have referred to, just using them as "measuring sticks"

yapuka · Apr 2, 2004

Your site is listed in http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Motorcycles/Classifieds_and_Bulletin_Boards/

lissa · Apr 2, 2004

Generally, the way category structures develop, sites get listed until enough of them appear on a particular topic to create a subcategory for that topic. What this means is that often the sites left in a main level aren't the "best" sites, they are the "less well classified" sites. As the directory has grown, there has been a trend towards making an effort to fully classify all the sites into third level categories, leaving none listed directly at the second level (except for pretty small categories.) This just hasn't happened yet for this area.

BTW - We don't consider the rankings of any sites in any search engines when we are deciding upon listing. However, since we use search engines ourselves, we do try to ensure that top ranked sites that meet our listing criteria get listed - not because they are top ranked, but because the ranking is likely an indication that they are a good resource.

senox · Apr 2, 2004

Your site is listed in http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Motorcyc...ulletin_Boards/

... for several years now. If you think that due to changes on your site this is not an appropriate category any more then you can try a URL update. Request it in the category where you are listed. But only do so if the category is really not appropriate, and not because you think that other sites are misplaced and that we should therefore misplace your site as well.

www.MotorcycleCity.com is basically the #2 ranked "motorcycle" site in Google, Yahoo, and the other major engines

Sorry, but this is completely irrelevant to us.

What will be the consequences of Google dropping DMOZ from their main page?

We don't know. You should ask Google, they are free to do what they want with their search engine.

I had given up on ever getting added but I would like to use the DMOZ feed (with DMOZ credits and links) in our Search program and I can't really see doing so if Motorcycle City is not included in your database.

Whether you use our data or not has no influence on a listing or review unless you use it without giving the required attribution. You can even take our data and add your site to every category if you like to. You just have to mention that you've made modifications to the original data.

tuisp · Apr 2, 2004

2wheelin said:
[...]
2. What will be the consequences of Google dropping DMOZ from their main page?
[..]

Since Google is a user of the ODP data like any other, with no special treatment, it won't change anything in the way editors do their volunteer work.

If you're implying that there will be less submissions, I have no idea whether that's likely. But even if that happened, it would most probably not affect the growth of our directory. As is very regularly said in this forum, processing submissions is only one of the ways editors make the directory grow. All new editors are encouraged to go and find sites to list by themselves, and not wait for them to be submitted.

bobrat · Apr 2, 2004

I'm hoping the Google change will influence SEO's and reduce the hype about getting listed in ODP. That will cut down on aggresively submnitted spam of mirrors, and multiple sites to multiple categories. So it has some positive possibilities.

2wheelin · Apr 3, 2004

Thanks to all that took time to reply!
_______________

Hello senox

www.MotorcycleCity.com is basically the #2 ranked "motorcycle" site in Google, Yahoo, and the other major engines

"Sorry, but this is completely irrelevant to us."

... To me, this says you have no interest in bringing the most relevant and useful listings to DMOZ users. Google and Yahoo are not blind meta spiders. A website rarely appears at the top of their returns if it does not have the required content to substantiate the placement. If this is irrelevant, what method do you use to find the top resources for a particular subject or category?

As tusip said, "All new editors are encouraged to go and find sites to list by themselves, and not wait for them to be submitted."

>> BTW- I didn't intend on appearing arrogant or just tootin' my horn. Believe me, I am humbled and proud when I see our site come up well in a directory!

We don't know. You should ask Google, they are free to do what they want with their search engine.

I know what Google said, and I'm aware of their freedoms. I only wondered if you were aware of any direct consequences that might arise.

(Thanks again tuisp, for answering this one!)

You can even take our data and add your site to every category if you like to. You just have to mention that you've made modifications to the original data.

It's not about sticking Motorcycle City at the top... It's about the returns from DMOZ.
I don't want to cram Motorcycle City down people's throats, but if we have what they are looking for, shouldn't they be able to find it?

Although I admit disappointment in your answers I would like to submit the one question you didn't address:
"If you feel Motorcycle City is not appropriate for a listing ((in the Main MC cat.)), please tell me what we're missing."

Most motorcycle people like the site and think we're doing a good job. I'm sorry you seem to disagree.

__________________

Hi Lissa,

sites left in a main level aren't the "best" sites, they are the "less well classified" sites

"Sites in a Main Level aren't the Best Sites" ... hmm ... see what I mean?

I had no idea they were misplaced!

We don't consider the rankings of any sites in any search engines when we are deciding upon listing. However, since we use search engines ourselves, we do try to ensure that top ranked sites that meet our listing criteria get listed - not because they are top ranked, but because the ranking is likely an indication that they are a good resource.

My point, exactly! Thank you Lissa!
_____________________

:2cents:

on search engines and directories.
* I think we need some PPC to support the industry, but too much of it ruins the returns. And it should say "Sponsored Listing" on these.
* A directory that only accepts paid listings is useless for the enduser.
* A fully automated directory is usually poor because it's too easy to manipulate and spam the script.

Spiders are great tools but it takes humans, and a free access resource to ensure that when we search a keyword, we'll get the most relevant information from the database.

This, is why I am a DMOZ supporter. This is why I want to use the feed and promote the use of the DMOZ directory. It's also the reason for my question. My intentions were not to make a vulgar attempt at getting listed and I apologize if I gave that impression.

Thanks again everyone, you too senox!

2wheelin

pvgool · Apr 3, 2004

Although I admit disappointment in your answers I would like to submit the one question you didn't address:
"If you feel Motorcycle City is not appropriate for a listing ((in the Main MC cat.)), please tell me what we're missing."

We don't do site reviews in this forum.
We will only list a site in the Main MC site if it is about many subjects. If it handles only (or mainly) one subject we will put it in the subcategory of that subject, as we did with your site.

Your site is listed (see first reply in this thread). If you feel it should be placed in another category go to the category your site is listed in and click the 'update url' link at the top of the page. In the update tell us why it should be moved. An editor will review your request and the site. He/she decides if the site will be moved or not.

2wheelin · Apr 3, 2004

pvgool,

You're post is not very enlightening.

We will only list a site in the Main MC site if it is about many subjects.

Read Lissa's statement about the "Main" category. She says it's a mistake, you say go submit to it. ??? I think Lissa is correct, and has already very adequately answered this aspect of my question. What you suggest only refreshes the confusion.
---

If it handles only (or mainly) one subject we will put it in the subcategory of that subject, as we did with your site.

There's no way anyone that has seen Motorcycle City can call it "Just a BBS". The category editor should have at least took a look, and hopefully, know what he/she is looking at.
---

Your site is listed (see first reply in this thread). If you feel it should be placed in another category go to the category your site is listed in and click the 'update url' link at the top of the page. In the update tell us why it should be moved. An editor will review your request and the site. He/she decides if the site will be moved or not.

You didn't read what I wrote. I have suggested it be re-evaluated, more than once. Nothing ever happens. This has gone on for years... and I did read the first reply...

----

After hours of looking through this forum and reading of all the confusion and problems plaguing DMOZ, I better understand the situation. If the category editors are so far behind and can't maintain relevant entries, and other editors become calloused to legitimate request and interest in the database, DMOZ will not survive as a serious resource. Poor directory structure and "unrefined" returns is why DMOZ is a top 5000 site, while Google, Yahoo, AltaVista, Excite, etc. are top 100 sites.

I think DMOZ could be just as good, but not without considerable reorganization and also a change in the attitudes towards website owners by some of the volunteers. I found more post (throughout this forum) telling people to "booger-off" and keep submitting, and Quoting Rules we already know, than I see people trying to help (like Lissa). Had I read more of this forum initially, I would not have made my original post. I even see people begging to help out and getting short, abrasive answers to their request! If you can't help or say something nice, don't say anything.

I like the bottom line and here it is:
If the category editors do a good job, the Top Sites (including MotorcycleCity.com) will be appropriately listed in the database. If the editors do a lousy job, the database will suck and no one will use it anyway.

I hope further replies (if any) to this post will provide something new, but I really think I have my overall answer.

Good luck to all of you!

gimmster · Apr 3, 2004

Read Lissa's statement about the "Main" category. She says it's a mistake, you say go submit to it. ??? I think Lissa is correct, and has already very adequately answered this aspect of my question. What you suggest only refreshes the confusion.

Lissa did not, in fact say that sites listed there were mistakes, she said that sites listed there were those that did not have a sufficient number of a specific type to create their own sub category. I'll add that those sites listed there are also those that fit in mutiple sub categories, so are listed once at the higher level instead.

There's no way anyone that has seen Motorcycle City can call it "Just a BBS". The category editor should have at least took a look, and hopefully, know what he/she is looking at.

Whichever editor looked at it listed it there for a reason. I have no psychic powers, but it could have been because at that time the primary focus appeared to be a forum, it could have been because an editor was only looking for forums to build that category, it could have been a deeplink was listed there, which was updated to another url when the site changed, it could have been because of a lot of things. Crying over what might have been is pointless. The bottom line is that it is listed there now.

You didn't read what I wrote. I have suggested it be re-evaluated, more than once. Nothing ever happens. This has gone on for years... and I did read the first reply...

To me it appears you didn't read what you wrote

I have submitted it to DMOZ several times in the past (since 1997) but still do not see it listed in the category:
http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Motorcycles/

You say you resubmitted - that's not an update request. An editor would have seen it listed in the category and deleted it as a duplicate submission, (well I would have). An [update] request is a request to re-evaluate the site in conjunction with whatever you put in the 'reason for update' field. If you submit a keyword stuffed description, and no other information, such as changed URL, additional content about xxx added, needs to change category because it provides information of a greater scope, then it's unlikely that an editor will look further than 'is the current description guidelines compliant? and is the information in the description on the site?

I like the bottom line and here it is:
If the category editors do a good job, the Top Sites (including MotorcycleCity.com) will be appropriately listed in the database.

I'd agree, the problem is that your definition of a "top site" and ours may differ. We don't care how many people link to your site, don't care how many people visit your site, don't even care if your site is the most aesthetically pleasing site ever produced. We care if, by going to your site, as opposed to any other site, the user finds useful content not available elsewhere ie unique content.

You have been told how to request the site be re-evaluated. Please do so, if you have not already done so (I don't edit Recreation, so can't check).

:tree:

senox · Apr 3, 2004

2wheelin, although my reply was short and concise it is and was never intended as being rude or condescending.

Google is a useful tool for us to find new sites. But since you wrote that you already submitted your site, we don't need to find it any more. Google results are the output of a sophisticated algorithm that weights factors like backlinks, keyword density etc. to come up with what it thinks are the most relevant sites for a keyword. We take none of these factors into consideration when reviewing sites. We are looking for unique and original content, and so far Google tells us nothing about that. It is possible that result #100 is by far more interesting to us than result #1, i.e. because #1 may just have copied content from elsewhere and paid a good SEO while #100 has unique content but didn't do SEO.

Your post sound like "Hey, I'm #2 in Google and Yahoo for keyword 'XYZ', I should therefore be listed in category 'ABC'. If you didn't mean that then I misunderstood your post. This conclusion is wrong because we don't take SERPs into consideration when deciding if and where to list sites. SERP is irrelevant to us because it doesn't tell us what we really want to know about a site. It just tells us that site A is very likely to have something to do with keyword X. The results are often OK, but 'likely' is not enough for us. Top Google sites are not necessarily Top DMOZ sites.

As far as the consequences of Google dropping DMOZ from their main page are concerned, you didn't specify whether you meant the consequences for DMOZ itself, or the consequences for the sites listed in DMOZ. Since 90% of the people who post here are primarily interested in what happens to their sites my reply covered that case. If you're part of the remaining 10% then take tuisp's reply, and sorry for the collateral communication damage.

I don't want to cram Motorcycle City down people's throats,

I should have made more obvious that my remark was intented as a general reply, and not as a specific one to you. No offense intended here.

2wheelin · Apr 3, 2004

gimmster,
Man, if you don't prove my point all over again!

You admit you can't help, so why reply? ( oh, I forgot, it was a chance to dis someone! )

My question has been answered.
I no longer have any concerns about anything in DMOZ.
DMOZ Rules!

This has been very informative! Thanks again!

2wheelin · Apr 3, 2004

Thanks senox,
I certainly didn't set out to start trouble or offend anyone.
I referred to our position in the other directories only because I felt it relevant in being considered for our listing in DMOZ. I take the top listings of Google and Yahoo pretty seriously when dealing with a premium keyword. They usually are pretty accurate. I can tell you that for my market, they started out lousy but now they are getting very good.

BTW- We've never paid for listing anywhere. We don't have the budget!

If the MC Category editors don't see fit to list Motorcycle City, I'm fine with it. I just got curious about it, along with the Google issue, and decided to join and post about it.

It's all good!

pvgool · Apr 3, 2004

2wheelin said:
If the MC Category editors don't see fit to list Motorcycle City, I'm fine with it.

As you have been told several times before. Your site is already listed.

The first entry I can find in our history is from july 1999 when it was moved to Recreation/Motorcycles (so it was already listed before that date). When more and more sites got listed at some time the subcat Classifieds_and_Bulletin_Boards was created and your site was moved to it. At that moment it was decided to be the best place. The only thing I can see afterwards are rejected submissions in other categories. I can not see any evidence of an update request being rejected.

I can not (as I have no editing privileges in this cat) see if an update request is currently waiting. If you have already suggested an updated please wait for an editor to review it. If you haven't done so feel free to send an update request.

gimmster · Apr 3, 2004

never mind

2wheelin · Apr 4, 2004

pvgool,

I KNOW THE SITE IS LISTED.
My Question, was about the category! duh?

"You have been told" - Yes, I certainly have. And so have you.
And I've had more that enough of this crap!

-----------

I joined and posted to learn something about DMOZ.
Let me state, FOR THE RECORD,
My questions have been answered.
--------
What have I learned? A lot more than I expected!
About this forum:
Some volunteers are genuinely trying to help people and make something of this project. I salute you!
Some volunteers need to talk to their moms about their people skills. Remember, these attitudes will get you a broken nose on the streets.

About DMOZ.
Well, I'd rather not say because it will only start a series of belligerent comments from forum kiddies.
Let it suffice to say that in my humble opinion, the future of DMOZ is not bright. It's only rated around 5000 in Alexa and a database of this magnitude should be in the top 100. It ranks poorly because the returns are "iffy" at best. I seldom use it because I know I can find what I need faster and more accurately somewhere else. The returns are so bad I can't personally use them so why would me or anyone else running a portal site want to pass them to our visitors? (We don't)

What's wrong with DMOZ? Here's a fine example:
From: http://www.attention-to-details.com/newslog/38g-getting-listed-in-dmoz-odp.asp

".... So, I fully understand that they're a bit grumpy. However, checking the feedback forum at http://www.resource-zone.com creeps me out. The DMOZ editors there seem to have reached a point where, by default, they assume that anyone wanting to be in DMOZ is a nuisance. They are often extremely rude and crude dealing with people's requests. (No I haven't posted there myself - I wouldn't dare to - but I've read some of the threads.)

Given the high stakes of getting listed in the ODP, I think it's understandable that a webmaster would post a note after several weeks, asking about the status of their submission. Maybe I'm spoiled by American customer service, and the friendliness especially here in the South, where people treat each other with kindness and respect... but some of the responses of DMOZ editors are unheard of. They come across like drill sergeants, barking on unsuspecting civilians who have wandered upon their territory, daring to ask a question. What's wrong with a short but friendly answer?

I think ODP editors should take more pride in their directory, and the web community they serve. "

----------
Well, there you have it. The respectable web community is starting to see this place as a joke. This piece is almost 8 months old and I personally disagree with his statement about the importance of a listing. My site is listed poorly here, my stats don't even register ANY traffic from DMOZ yet we're at the top of our food chain.

The facts: Google dropped the link. The returns are lousy and when someone like myself inquires about this situation, the above BS happens and nothing is accomplished. When users find a better search resource, they will use it and not DMOZ. When the large web publishers aren't listed and can't talk to anyone with the authority to do anything constructive, they won't use it. Do the math boys....

Unless the belligerent kids are cleared out (volunteers or not) and the editors start listening to, and following up, on submissions and inquiries from publishers, DMOZ is history.

This has been a very disappointing experience. I can't promise I'll waste any more time posting in here either so if I don't respond...

Cheers!

motsa · Apr 4, 2004

2wheelin said:
pvgool,

I KNOW THE SITE IS LISTED.
My Question, was about the category! duh?

No offence intended but you keep giving the impression that you don't know that so I don't blame pvgool from restating it for you. If you know your site is listed but you think it belongs in an upper category, submit an update request asking for it to be moved. This forum isn't intended to be a fast track to get your site reviewed (or rereviewed in the case of a move request). Submit the update request and if the reviewing editor agrees with your take on it, they'll move the site. Shouting about it isn't going to make things move faster.

2wheelin said:
The returns are so bad I can't personally use them so why would me or anyone else running a portal site want to pass them to our visitors? (We don't)

Excuse me but you were the one who was talking about adding the ODP data to your site earlier in this thread. So at some point you were thinking about it. Don't act like the thought never crossed your mind.

2wheelin said:
The facts: Google dropped the link. The returns are lousy and when someone like myself inquires about this situation, the above BS happens and nothing is accomplished. When users find a better search resource, they will use it and not DMOZ. When the large web publishers aren't listed and can't talk to anyone with the authority to do anything constructive, they won't use it. Do the math boys....

Unless the belligerent kids are cleared out (volunteers or not) and the editors start listening to, and following up, on submissions and inquiries from publishers, DMOZ is history.

Rumours of our pending demise have been bandied about almost since the project started (certainly since I started 4 years ago). Google is not our lifeline and our continued existence is not tied to anything that Google does. So please excuse us if we decide to carry on editing in the face of your proclamation.

xixtas01 · Apr 5, 2004

Public Notice:

This thread has been retroactively enhanced for your enjoyment, and so that the conversation now makes virtually no sense whatsoever.

2wheelin · Apr 5, 2004

Yep, xixtas01

It's just wild & crazy, man!!

This whole place reminds me of a bar full of red necks where it's really late, the girls are all gone and everyone is drunk and lookin for some S#it!

BTW- I'm not hoping for ODP to crash and burn, I just don't think it will survive as a credible entity with all the negativity and the poor indexing of some categories..

Believe me, I was hoping for the best when I came in here.

senox · Apr 5, 2004

I joined and posted to learn something about DMOZ.
Let me state, FOR THE RECORD,
My questions have been answered.

Great. Then I suppose we can all agree that this thread has served it's purpose, so there's no need for further discussion.

Why is www.motorcyclecity.com not listed in rec/motorcycles?

2wheelin

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yapuka

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lissa

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senox

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tuisp

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bobrat

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2wheelin

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pvgool

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2wheelin

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senox

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2wheelin

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2wheelin

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gimmster

2wheelin

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xixtas01

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2wheelin

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