Clarification on Submission Rules

[hutcheson]

Look up "taxonomy" in your dictionary, and assume an ODP editor means that when he says "ontology." We're pigeon-holers, not philosophers.

 

I think it's more important that you understand what we mean by "@link." If you figure that out -- or just wait till it's done. Your (and your competitors') sites will be more visible than before.

[dogbows]

Well go back and read my last post before this one!

[xixtas01]

When you go to the grooming category, there is already an @ sign for grooming products which means what?

 

I think you're starting to get it. That same @link in /recreation would just lead to the /business branch instead of /shopping and another @link would be created in /shopping to send surfers to the appropriate spot in /business. That way, no matter how they start out, in the end, they get to your site and those of your competitors.

 

Neat, huh?

[dogbows]

OK, now I have stopped crying! So now you will make me cry again! Am I going to have to wait until all this takes place to be grouped with my competitors? Or can I please be listed here for now and be moved as everyone else in this category is moved.

http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Pets/Supplies/Grooming/

[xixtas01]

Well, this whole conversation has been strictly theoretical. In order for changes like this to be made, an editor would have to decide they wanted to do the work, and then seek consensus that a change should be made in the internal forums.

 

I haven't looked at your site, so I'm not sure whether it's miscategorized or not. I certainly don't want to second guess the editor who listed it in the first place.

 

Posting in this forum is not a fast track to getting your site reviewed or listing updated. I wish I had better news for you. But you will have to wait until an editor processes your update request in the course of his or her normal editing.

[dogbows]

No problem! I will just go to update listing and give it a shot! But I can assure you I am miscategorized the way the directory stands at the moment. And my tracker shows that several editors have looked at my site since this turned into such a debate! By the way if any of you editors have not read in other threads what a magnificent job I think you are all doing, then know it now. I truly believe it and my hat would be off to all of you, if I wore one! May you all be blessed!

[financeprof]

I have the same issue except for education one site for professionals and one site for consumers

[dogbows]

Well my advice to you would be if you are already listed, and you think you are listed in the wrong category, just use the update listing, and hope for the best. If you have not submitted your site yet, make sure your read all the rules of submission several times before submitting. And pick the one that you think best suits your site.

[financeprof]

Thanks, I'm new to the web marketing game. If my submissions are idiotic, or worse, will create a negative bias.....sound away.

[dogbows]

I'm sorry, are you asking for more advice? I don't have any. I am not new to marketing my product. But I am new to this forum and did not even know that their was an ODP until a few weeks ago! And every submission to the ODP will have it's own unique pros and cons where the ODP is concerned. Just give it your best shot. But I can tell you that reading as many of the posts here in this forum as I could sure helped me not to make some of the same mistakes that other submitters have made.

[Alucard]

I think you have done a really good job of bringing to public light something that often goes on internally in the ODP - an editor will bring up the question "why are there 2 sites listed in THIS category, and 2 others, doing essentially the same thing, listed in THAT category?" What follows is a discussion of how to bring the whole thing together in ONE place and make it readily accessible to anyone who would want to browse categories to get it. This is exactly what is happenning here.

 

Now we need to "go internal" for a while - there are editors in that branch who do not read Resource Zone, so we will need to bring it up in the internal fora, invite all the editors who might have a stake in it, come to a consensus, and then make it happen.

 

In the meanwhile, you should probably sit tight. We have the discussion on record here, so I doubt your case will be forgotten. Resolution will happen, but at the usual pace of things in the ODP - not in milliseconds, but weeks.

[dogbows]

Well, I do still, most definately have concerns. And that is, that the business category that the helper first said he was leaning to moving me to, does not have a grooming or grooming supplies tree. Or at least I couldn't find one. It is pet supplies all grouped together. For those of us in the grooming industry, whether groomers or suppliers, there is a vast difference in pet supplies and grooming supplies.

[thehelper]

Well, I went ahead and consolidated all the dog bow sites in

 

Shopping/Pets/Supplies/Grooming

 

Now, this might not be where the sites finally end up but the first step was to consolidate them and then do a little better job of linking the related categories together. I have done this. The next step is to take this into the internal forums and discuss it with the other Shopping editors. Which I am about to do.

 

I put them into Grooming because I researched the bow market and apparently the sites that specialize in selling dog bows pretty much market to groomers. The fact that there is online shopping on the site leads me to list it in Shopping because an individual could buy just like a business would. More than likely, since there are 4 sites specializing in it there will probably be a new category specifically for dog bows. Stay tuned...

[dogbows]

Well thank you very much!! At least I am where I belong as the directory stands now and until the changes do take place.

 

And yes we have shopping carts because it is convenient for the groomer. Which brings up something that may have been part of the confusion, in the first place. Businesses that sell to grooming businesses are not selling wholesale to them. Although, it is referred to as wholesale, sometimes.

Because the supplies sold to groomers are not for resale, at least for the most part. Grooming is a service business, but on rare occasions, a grooming salon will carry a small amount of goods for their customers. But for most, having to report sales tax once a month is not worth it. They make their money by the service they provide not the products they sell. But it is part of their service to provide a bow or bandana, to finish off their work. But even though bow makers are factory direct to groomers, it is still retail not wholesale. I can indeed retail to individuals that actual want to buy in large quantities from me. But in the course of my business through the years, only three individuals have wanted to do that. So that is why I did not want to be in the category I was originally placed in.

 

I also do actually wholesale to distributors who resell to groomers. But most distributors buy all their bows from one manufacturer and do not offer much of a selection to the groomers they sell to. Therefore, most dog bow manufacturers do better selling direct to groomers.

 

Let me confuse you just a little more about how to categorize your grooming industry in the directory. There are also two different kinds of groomers in the world. The neighborhood groomer, down the street that pet owners carry their poodle or malteze to for it's monthly bath and groom is the groomer that I and Bardel Bows and Bowtique Dog Bows cater to.

But then there is also the groomer/handler for Dog Shows. They buy single bows and by the pair for some breeds. But they are a very different kind of bow, and a different kind of grooming industry. They would be appalled at the thought of having to use a bow that I made. It does not meet show standards. And they would be laughed out of the show ring.

 

And guess what? There are bow makers that do indeed cater to the individual pet owners. I just don't think you have any of them in your directory yet. They would indeed be better placed in Shopping/Pets/Dogs/Apparel. And most of these do cater to both the groomer/handler for the Show Ring and to Individual pet owners.

Because of this fact I am not sure you actually need to have a tree just for Bows. You just need to be able to determine which belong in Shopping/Pets/Supplies/Apparel and which belong in Shopping/Pets/Supplies/Grooming

 

This site caters to the individual pet owner that wants their dog to dress like the show dogs dress. http://www.dog-bows.com/ And to the groomer/handler for Show Dogs. But they would not do well placed in grooming/supplies Better placed in pets/supplies/apparel

Here are some more examples:

http://www.perfectdogbows.com/

I just discovered that Bows by Haley does not actually belong in Grooming Supplies. It belongs in Apparel also. So it is miscategorized.

http://www.bowsbyhaley.com/

http://www.dogbows.net/ caters to groomer/handlers and individual pet owners. Would belong in Apparel

So separating them by pet supplies and grooming supplies would be better than having all bows grouped together.

The key here in determining that, I think, would be:

If they sell single bows and pairs of bows, they belong in apparel

If they sell quartities of anywhere from 15 to 100 bows per pack, they belong in grooming supplies.

[spectregunner]

Now you are beginning to see why changes come slowly. Multiply this conversation times 450,000+ categories and you can see why very few editors are geiven permission to implement wide-spread changes within the directory.

 

This type of discussion is repeated time and time again in the internal fora whenever changes are suggested. Some seemingly straightforward proposals have been discussed for months on end as different views and perspectives are taken into consideration. And if you think presidential candidates change their positions alot, you ought to see six editors discussing something -- sometimes there are 8 different positions on the table.

 

As catalogers, we have to decide which degree of detail is important to our surfers and which degree of detail is important only to the handfull of people who are focus on that tiny detail.

 

And there is always the temptation to say: its all pet supplies anyhow.

[dogbows]

Yep, it is all pet supplies. But it makes a big difference to those of us who cater to the grooming industry and those of us that cater to the individual pet owner. That is why I asked the question in an earlier discussion in this thread. If you could be listed twice if you catered to two different markets.

I do intend to have a site that does indeed cater to pet owners and pet owners alone. No Show Bows on my site. But I will not submit it to the ODP. I have the one listed that I want listed. However, even though I know it is not going to happen. I would really like to be able to list both in their proper categories. Because to me even though it is the exact same product. It is as different as a store that sells hardware and a store that sells clothes. It is in fact a totally different market.

 

Spec this is an add-on. It would make a difference to the end-user as well, because groomers would not want to wade through all the bows for individuals and vice versa.

[dogbows]

Ok now I just discovered another fact about Bows by Haley. She is in both:

http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Pets/Supplies/Apparel/Dogs/

and:

http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Pets/Supplies/Grooming/

The one in grooming is the one to remove.

I already stated that she was miscategorized in Grooming. Did not know at that time that she was also in Apparel where she belongs.

[dogbows]

More Research.

 

I have done a little more researching. And have found many dog bow makers in the category below and they are all in the right category. (except for me which I expect to show up eventually in the grooming category since the helper said he moved me) I just hope he did not move these.

 

http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Pets/Supplies/Apparel/Dogs/

Always Fancy http://www.alwaysfancy.com/

Barking Beauties http://www.barkingbeauties.com/

Finishing Touch http://www.dog-bows.com/

Lainee Ltd https://www.laineeltd.com/

PerfectDogBows.com http://www.perfectdogbows.com/

Utopia's Bows http://www.utopiasbows.com/

All of these should remain where they are. They are appropiately categorized the way the directory stands at this time.

 

There is one listed here that caters to both individuals and groomers. However, it's primary is selling to individuals, I believe, and would also do better to stay in this category.

My Shelties http://www.myshelties.com

 

Actually, unless I missed one somewhere it appears that Bowtique Dog Bows and Fancy Pants Dog Bows(Me) are the only ones that were miscategorized, except of course the double listing for Bows by Haley.

 

I would ask for a consulting fee,

but I am sure that it would be the same wage as the editor's fee.

[makrhod]

Yep, it is all pet supplies.

 

Hello. I have just discovered and read this thread, and would like to explain/assure/reassure/apologise ( pick whichever one makes you feeel better ) that the whole of Shopping/Pets ( and in particular Supplies ) has been the subject of long and very involved discussion for months now.

 

As has been noted above, such reorganisations take a very long time when volunteers are involved, but eventually there is a consensus and then things happen quite quickly. So please do not be distressed about where your site is at the moment, or where similar sites have been placed, or whether there is duplication or not. I do understand that it matters to you personally, but when there are very few active editors in an area that is undergoing major reorganisation, I'm sure you can see that there is a reluctance to spend time on something which will soon be changed.

 

Rightly or wrongly, basic housekeeping falls by the wayside when messy renovations are under way

 

Your site is now listed, and people will find it. I completely agree with you that the current "ontology" is less than satisfactory, but we are, I think and hope, close to sorting it out.

[dogbows]

Actually, I am the one that thinks the current ontology is completely satisfactory. I am fighting the changes. And it doesn't bother me at all about the double listing. I just happened to notice, that's all. Or any other listing, but it does indeed bother me, when I picked the one category in all the directory, per instructions, that I belonged in, but then I was placed in another category that I do not belong in. It appears that out of all the dog bow makers that the ODP has listed, that only two were not in the one best suited category. Which was my site and one more. And as I have stated over and over again in this forum. The editors here do an absoulutely fantastic job. I was just trying to explain why I do not think that the proposed changes should be made. The editors just need to know how to separate the pet supplies from the grooming supplies. And I was trying to explain that, from someone who understands the difference. And yes I am listed and I am grateful. But the whole point I have been trying to make all along is in your last statement, "Your site is listed now, and people will find it". I do not want "people" to find it! I want dog groomers to find it! 1000 hits per day from people is worth less to me than 1 hit per month or even 1 hit per year from a dog groomer.

[makrhod]

I was just trying to explain why I do not think that the proposed changes should be made.

 

Thank you for your suggestions

But I'm afraid you may have presumed too much from this discussion, as no-one has mentioned any proposed changes here. All such debates take place in the editor forums, and as several of us have pointed out, it is a lengthy process.

 

My remarks were very general, and were intended to reassure you rather than to increase your frustration. My apologies.

[dogbows]

No apology is necessary, but:

I beg to differ! For those changes were proposed here. Several editors said that grooming supplies should all be moved to business because we are a business that sells to other businesses. But even though we do sell to other businesses, we do not wholesale because we sale to service businesses that do not retail products. They just use our products in their business as part of their service. So we are retailing to them and could retail to individuals but our bulk packaging for groomers makes it undesirable to individuals. And it was also proposed that there should be a Tree Category for Dog Bows all grouped together because all dog bow makers seem to cater to groomers, which is not true, and I was just pointing out, that in fact all dog bow makers do not cater to groomers. The ones that do should be in grooming/supplies just the way it stands in the directory now. And the ones that cater to individual pet owners should stay in pet/supplies/dogs/apparel just the way it stands now!

 

And I apologize if I infringed on discussions that are open to editors only, but my original question was simply to determine, if after being listed for only two days, was it too soon to request a category change?

[Alucard]

A few editors have expressed their personal opinions on how they believe that this could be resolved. But these are not the only ones who will make the decision. Therefore please take anything written here as non-official.

[dogbows]

Alucard, I do most definitely understand that this is all unofficial, but none the less, when it does come time for the editors to make any changes official, they should understand why all pet supplies should not be categorized together, and why all dog bows should not be categorized together. After all, it has been stated over and over in this forum, that one of the main objectives of the ODP is to benefit the end user. And these particular changes would not benefit the end user.

[Alucard]

ok, I hear you - your input will no doubt be one of the factors taken into consideration by the editors that make the decision. I feel you have made your case very plainly, and I have no doubt that (if it hasn't been done already), a link to this very forum thread will be put in the Pets reorg discussion, because it IS such useful input.

 

Thanks.