MatrixViper Posted May 5, 2005 Author Posted May 5, 2005 <Thanks for mentioning ecommerceand.com. OK, our standards are not yours. We don't enforce trademarks, there are federal marshals that take care of that. > This is the EXACT reason why only a REALTOR, BROKER, or Attorney specializing in Real Estate Law should be editing ANY real estate directory - for that reason alone - you folks do not understand real estate law! <We don't even enforce anti-search-engine spam techniques (if we did, we wouldn't list any of your mirrors, since we consider that spamming)> I DO NOT WANT ANY OF THE OTHER SITES BEING DEVELOPED LISTED - why cant you understand that??!!! <And I freely grant you, it's mind-numbingly ugly design. But -- all of those things are about DESIGN and OPTIMIZATION of the website....and it's OK with us if they are really poorly done, or even vilely done.> Once again, that is simply YOUR opinion...our site design is simple, because most surfers (over 70%) are simple when it comes to the internet. You are probably right that we are missing out on alot of web designers who could be searching for a home or selling theirs, but that is not our target audience to date. <But, but ... what is fatal is that it doesn't have information about whoever owns it -- and in a business category, information about the business is, um, necessary. For all the other reasons, I may personally rejoice to see it go, but that last reason is the only one that I may use ODP editing privileges to help it along its way.> Good god, man, I OWN IT...ERIC!! My phone number is boldly displayed in the LOGO prominently displayed on every page in my site! OUR BROKER LICENSE IS LISTED AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERY PAGE!! What more do you want?? I will provide whatever you need. <The extended explanation is because ... surfers have a very different view of the world than SERP perps. Some fast-talking dark-black-hat fly-by-night SEO professional may have (I believe, HAS) given you bad advice -- it happens to a LOT of people. > Believe me, we fully understand the reasoning for designing the site like it is....we have gained over 100K extra page views per month simply by making some rather disturbing wording changes (that you are right, we normally wouldnt do) - but- our continuous battle with search engine spammers have forced us to take pre-emptive action as well as reactive measures to ensure those people looking for NORTHWOOD, find NORTHWOOD and nothing else! <and it probably will make you look bad to surfers (the intelligent ones expect to know who's benefiting financially from the advice given out, and keeping your websites secret isn't the way to inspire SURFER trust)> this is the mistake that most in the "know" make in the internet industry....see, i use Firefox as a web browser because i know it to be a safer form of browsing, but, the sites we have designed are built almost strictly to be viewed in IE - the reason is simple, even though we in the *know* know that IE is hazardous, around 88% of the free world does not. I only se google to search the web, yet both yahoo and msn are ranked higher in alexa...newspapers are written at a sixth-seventh grade level.....these are the majority and conversely, are the people that i target....
Meta pvgool Posted May 5, 2005 Meta Posted May 5, 2005 Interesting thoughts. If this were true we could ofcourse be ordered to delete all realtor categories from DMOZ. This would make live much easier for us. The biggest source of spam being blocked by their own organisations. I will not answer PM or emails send to me. If you have anything to ask please use the forum.
MatrixViper Posted May 5, 2005 Author Posted May 5, 2005 <That may well be, but, it might be worthwhile for you to understand that we had to institue very strict, almost inflexible, rules for dealing with real estate agents because of widespread deceit and unethical submittals with regards to our directory. So your industry, in terms of this directory, has an exceptionally poor reputation insofar as eithics go.> well, that is disturbing because they could lose their livelihood over such a thing-i would imagine referral farms trying to abuse, but, i am shocked about agents <That is also a highly interesting interpretation of trademark law.> that is how it is....the term "realtor" can only be used by licensed realtors and bokers and MUST either be capitalized "REALTOR" or include the ® symbol after its use - this is NOT negotiable and has been upheld by the supreme court
Meta hutcheson Posted May 5, 2005 Meta Posted May 5, 2005 I think you took my comments as referring to your site. They weren't (except for the side comments about the mirrors). They were the site which you mentioned (correctly but for the wrong reasons) as one that should not be listed. As for your so-called "realtor code of ethics," we are not here to judge either the ethics of the code itself, or your ability to adhere to it. We just deal with what we see on the net. You may be a perfectly honest person and good citizen, for all I know: but your concern that your reputation would be harmed if someone accidentally found out who was publishing all those websites of yours ... is not a concern that I can harmonize with honest business. You may know real estate law -- but WE ARE NOT GOING TO DISCUSS REAL ESTATE LAW in here. You may know trademark law, but WE DON'T DISCUSS THAT EITHER. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you don't know the internet. And you're getting bad advice. As a surfer, I see the surfer's viewpoint. Surfers are your potential customers. Don't you think you ought to stop obsessing about real estate law and listen to the effect you are having on your potential customers?
MatrixViper Posted May 5, 2005 Author Posted May 5, 2005 <Interesting thoughts. If this were true we could ofcourse be ordered to delete all realtor categories from DMOZ. This would make live much easier for us. The biggest source of spam being blocked by their own organisations.> actually i would suggest to the ODP and DMOZ that they require real estate directory submitters to provide their license # (broker or agent) and their NAR membership # if they are submitting to a REALTOR directory
MatrixViper Posted May 5, 2005 Author Posted May 5, 2005 hutcheson, as described before, we ONLY target our potential customers and unfortunately, they are not the very educated surfers that you refer too...when our customers become that market, we will redesign our site to suit those individuals (actually we have already begun working on a site that the geeds will find very suitable <I think you took my comments as referring to your site. They weren't (except for the side comments about the mirrors). They were the site which you mentioned (correctly but for the wrong reasons) as one that should not be listed.> I apologize for taking your comments to heart, but, earlier you referred to me as a *sleaze* and as a person with strong ethics and candor, that comment was very offensive to me. I do appreciate your nicer demeanor to me now and I'm hoping the previous was complete misunderstanding. <Don't you think you ought to stop obsessing about real estate law and listen to the effect you are having on your potential customers?> In real estate, real estate law MUST come first, than customers second, that is the nature of the beast...believe me i wish it would be easier, but, than everyone could practice real estate thus devaluing the industry as a whole.
Meta hutcheson Posted May 5, 2005 Meta Posted May 5, 2005 Look, put the silly trademark issue aside. The ODP has no realtor categories! We have MANY "local real estate" categories, in which all kinds of businesses related to real estate (including salesmen) are listed. That's all. So this is not an issue. And we don't know (nor do we have a right to care) about your daily business ethics. If we list Microsoft, then it's obvious that there is nothing on earth you could do that's evil enough to get your site banned. So this is not an issue. The only issue is the website.
MatrixViper Posted May 5, 2005 Author Posted May 5, 2005 <Look, put the silly trademark issue aside. The ODP has no realtor categories! We have MANY "local real estate" categories, in which all kinds of businesses related to real estate (including salesmen) are listed. That's all. So this is not an issue.> I am happy to hear that you folks do not have realtor categories, because the issue of trademark is not a *silly issue* at all...we estimate trademark infringements cost our business alone well in excess of a million dollars per year--but, as you said it is a dead issue. <And we don't know (nor do we have a right to care) about your daily business ethics. If we list Microsoft, then it's obvious that there is nothing on earth you could do that's evil enough to get your site banned. So this is not an issue.> well said. <The only issue is the website.> and what again is the issue?
Editall/Catmv arubin Posted May 6, 2005 Editall/Catmv Posted May 6, 2005 Re #32 From time to time, an editor does create a "Realtor" category. It violates our (internal) guidelines in almost all cases, so they usually don't last long. At the moment, I see one (and I'm going to bring it up in the appropriate internal forum as soon as I finish in this forum). As for the use of the term "Realtor" in descriptions -- we don't encourage it, but there do seem to be a lot of them. Most of them seem to be agencies with "Realtor" or "Realtors" in their name. If that's OK with the NAR, then it's OK with us.
Editall/Catmv arubin Posted May 6, 2005 Editall/Catmv Posted May 6, 2005 The issue is: "You" (Eric) are the (or one of the) agent(s) on a number of real estate sites submitted. It's possible, I suppose that you don't know anything about it -- that they were suggested by your (former) agency -- but we have no way of knowing that. If you've recently changed agencies, it might account for some of the micommunication here.
Meta kokopeli Posted May 6, 2005 Meta Posted May 6, 2005 The purpose of this area is status checks. I personally checked into the matter myself because I wanted to feel that I felt the status given to you is fair, and I looked at the information gathered and I believe it is. I am sorry the subject is upsetting, this is in part why the forum guidelines includes: # Keep in mind that editors cannot reveal certain information due to confidentiality issues mentioned in the ODP Editor Guidelines. If your site has been rejected, please keep in mind that arguing about the editorial decision will not be tolerated. Please note that at the bottom of the "add URL" screen it says "Netscape and the ODP have unfettered editorial discretion to determine the structure and content of the directory" and "a site's placement in the directory is subject to change or deletion at any time" This forum is not intended for site analysis or spam accusations. Please avoid discussing any aspect of the site except its submission status. "Rejected and not likely to be accepted anywhere" is a reasonable status. I think this discussion has gotten somewhat off track. The status has been given, so IMO it's time to end this now.
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