Directory Attitude - An Open Letter to DMOZ!

[JACSoft]

I think a lot of people ask questions without realizing what kind of assumptions -- incredibly arrogant, incredibly ignorant, or both -- are inextricably embedded in them.

 

I believe charlesleo came here with the simple intent of venting some steam over the tone of some editors' responses here. I would characterise that tone as abrasive meta-language, used to subtlely denounce the poster, his objections to the system, or his requests, often employing beautifully constructed parallel structure or rigorous line-addressed replies. There's also a sort of contrasting cheerfulness in the sigs or "party line." That said, charlesleo came here to comment on abrasive language, and guess what he got? Abrasive language.

 

My personal take on the DMOZ is that it's officious, based on uproars like the one in the following link:

 

http://resource-zone.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=30067

 

You see, DMOZ is like a seven layer coffee filter. You pour the sites in at the top, and to ensure maximum quality, wait four years. First, for an editor to event exist, he has to prove he's worthy by submitting an application. Then he's limited to small categories, or more specifically (judging by posts in the above link) the categories that need the most attention (i.e. the ones with the largest queues). Hence, too many categories have no editors listed, and seldom get updated. DMOZ cleverly blocks "inexperienced" users, choosing nothing over something, so to speak. Then sites have to go through the personal editorial process.

 

People have a big investment in their sites; they're tied to their interests, their businesses, and their lives. To paraphrase, the job of editors is believed to be building a directory, not 'monitoring submission queues.' This is expecting specific individuals to have vast storehouses of knowledge of the web which they can dump into the directory in the most finely tuned way possible. Maybe that worked when the WWW had 100 sites total or when Magellan was still a SE, but times have changed. This is all catty corner to the more _open style of sites like Wikipedia, which allow a successful and fast peer review process. More importantly, when websites and the investments in them clash with the idiosyncratic personas of anonymous editors who rule the roost, tempers flare. And then editors are unable to see why "your site may take up to 2 years, 3 years, 10 decades, forever to process" is excessively flippant.

[motsa]

I believe charlesleo came here with the simple intent of venting some steam over the tone of some editors' responses here...That said, charlesleo came here to comment on abrasive language, and guess what he got? Abrasive language.

Have you read the whole thread? I find it really odd that people have come here, resurrected a thread that charlesleo himself hasn't felt a need to post in in over a month, and are up in arms over his supposed treatment in this thread in a way that he himself hasn't even been.

 

To paraphrase, the job of editors is believed to be building a directory, not 'monitoring submission queues.' This is expecting specific individuals to have vast storehouses of knowledge of the web which they can dump into the directory in the most finely tuned way possible.

It isn't expecting that at all. Some people do, many people don't. The fact that the suggestion pool isn't our priority doesn't mean it isn't there for people to use if they choose to.

[spectregunner]

I am so very, very tired of this thread and wish it would just go away.

[shadow575]

I have a lot of respect for the original poster, he handled himself very well and am sure if he still has any questions, issues, or feels he was mis-treated he will have no problem coming back and posting about it himself, so I won't drag him back into this because it isn't fair to him.

 

You see, DMOZ is like a seven layer coffee filter. You pour the sites in at the top, and to ensure maximum quality, wait four years. First, for an editor to event exist, he has to prove he's worthy by submitting an application. Then he's limited to small categories, or more specifically (judging by posts in the above link) the categories that need the most attention (i.e. the ones with the largest queues). Hence, too many categories have no editors listed, and seldom get updated. DMOZ cleverly blocks "inexperienced" users, choosing nothing over something, so to speak. Then sites have to go through the personal editorial process.

 

Funny this part was began as an attack on the editors and was part of a complaint that editors don't respond polietly enough here.

 

The theory that there aren't enough editors in categories and that editors are joined to small and insignificant categories with no hope of expansion doesn't fly with me given my personal experiences. Sorry. I was joined a little over 2 years ago (July of 2004) to a category that was created based on my sample sites. With in 4 months I was editing in several medium size categories in a couple of branches, by 1.5 years I was a Cateditall working throughout Regional as well as several independent categories and now just beyond my 2nd anniversary in the ODP I can edit throughout 3 branches as well as several independent categories, I have logged well over 15K edits, have Catmod permissions in Regional (meaning I now have the pleasure of joining new editors to small, insignificant categories and helping them expand upward). I have seen new editors (many in these forums) join and struggle only to become great top level editors, editalls, and even a few Meta's.

 

I am so very, very tired of this thread and wish it would just go away.

I agree. I think this thread has outlived its usefulness, given that the original poster has moved on to other things and hasn't appeared to share the feelings of following posters.

[hutcheson]

>I believe charlesleo came here with the simple intent of...

 

And I thought Kreskin was dead.

[giz]

Returning to that newspaper theme for just a moment...

 

 

The local rag has run 4 or 5 stories in the last fortnight about how various pedigree cats have simply disappeared sometime during the night.

 

I know that one local owner, not three streets from here, has had their cat likewise vanish last week. However, their story has not appeared in the local newspaper; but does that matter? For the rest of the populous the word is out: pedigree cats are disappearing: look after yours...

 

Is the newspaper deficient in not publishing every submitted cat story? Are they also negligant, because this was the most valuable of all the missing cats, and they have not mentioned this one? Or, have they served the story well by publishing several typical examples, and generally alerting owners to the problem?

 

 

Now returning you to your original scheduled programme....

[RCarpadus]

Question about an earlier reply

 

Earlier charlesleo was asking about being told that a category was too broad because it had 170 (per Jim...Hi Jim long time no talk to!) sites in it and it was suggested that he work in a sub category that has 10-20 sites. It was stated that a category of that size was too much for a new editor.

 

My question is, in what way does the number of sites in a category affect the ease or difficulty in editing a category? Aren't those 170 sites already done and all the new guy/gal have to do is work on the incoming stuff or was that 170 the number in the pool? I am curious on what duties an editor have other than reviewing sites for inclusion.

 

I am not trying to critical or anything; I am honestly curious about the process, as I have been interested in being an editor but am nothing but a lowly sales person and am a lousy reviewer.

[hutcheson]

170 sites in the pool would be worse than 170 sites in the category. But that many sites in the category would mean, right out of the box, the new editor would be dealing with subcategory issues.

 

A second consideration is that (both for the sake of the new editor's sense of accomplishment, and for the sake of the community's trust) even a few changes to a small category by a new editor immediately stamp his sweat-equity mark visibly on the category.

 

Without that first small-category experience, we might sort of trust the new editor, but we wouldn't want to risk too much (or expose him to too much temptation.) Think of it as a sort of apprenticeship. Three good suggested listings is enough for us to risk a 20-site category. Add another 20 good changes, and trust can grow rapidly.

 

Salespeople aren't forbidden to edit, but the stretch to writing objective, informative prose is often very painful for them. (I sort of sympathise, as once I tried to help a non-native-English-speaking friend with an advertising flier. I couldn't twist my mind in that direction, either. And it was acutely painful, physically and mentally, to try.)

 

Lousy reviewer: now THAT is a problem, as reviewing sites is basically what we do.

 

What then is it that you would like to do, that you think an editor does?

[RCarpadus]

<Quote:

<With great power comes great responsibility. Responsibility that becoming more and <more overwhelming for less and less editors.

 

I am afraid this shows you do not understand the harsh reality of the business world nor how the ODP works. Understanding both is necessary for you to have realistic expectations. The ODP has no obligation to businesses as businesses at all.

 

 

In the beginning of the ODP you would have been correct but I think that has changed if there is any merit to the argument that ODP influences a websites standings in the big threes (Google/Yahoo/Msn) results. I am a member of a volunteer fire department and because I volunteered to join the fire department, I accepted that certain responsibilities came with being a volunteer, that of being responsible for peoples lives, property and livelihoods. The same applies to the Great Pyrenees dog rescue group I also work with. I volunteered for a position and there are responsibilities that come with that job as well.

 

If the ODP does have a large influence in the rankings of a website whether it was designed to or not, than any volunteers have certain moral responsibilities whether they like it or not. Whether you like it or not, whether it was intended to or not, it appears that this project affects peoples lives and livelihoods (in some categories)(please note that I say "appears", it is only an impression that is out there, right, wrong or otherwise, I am not trying to imply a fact) and because of that there now may be an obligation to web based business persons to perform to a certain level or in a certain fashion. Just as in the volunteer fire service in California where once (way back in the day!) all we did was fight fires and drink beer and we volunteers now have to provide emergency medical care, provide a safe haven for abandoned babies and present the appearance of a sober professional highly trained department to the public, I think your responsibilities and obligations to web based business may now have changed.

 

Quote:

<I am college student that went from paying for my classes and books to not <being able to afford my server bills to run my site because the ODP took my <link out of the directory.

 

 

No, you failed to promote your business properly.

 

This is the case for most failed business, they fail to promote.

 

Someone who understands business, know they need every ounce of promotion out there to get their business going. When they submit, they would have looked into what they were getting for their effort. They know that, having submitted it to DMOZ, they can achieve better results by obtaining links elsewhere, improving their site etc rather than relying on the ODP.

 

When my wife and I started up our website design company, we understood that no one channel was going to be stable and productive. We submitted our website to the top players (including here) but did not depend on being found among the millions of pages about website design. In fact, we have never been accepted here and we would have gone out of business if we had depended solely on being included. Instead, I went out and promoted the heck out of our company at chamber of commerce functions (never missed a one and never missed getting a lead), business networking functions and any place else I/we could think of. We also reworked our website, added more content, targeted a particular region and submitted to regional and local directories where possible and over time, have slowly gained in ranking for ourt keywords in our region. I would never bet my business on how I rank in the search engines! If one dropped link killed your business, you had other problems(it's called all your eggs in one basket)!

[RCarpadus]

sorry accidently duplicated my post...not sure what the heck I did!

[RCarpadus]

Salespeople aren't forbidden to edit, but the stretch to writing objective, informative prose is often very painful for them. (I sort of sympathise, as once I tried to help a non-native-English-speaking friend with an advertising flier. I couldn't twist my mind in that direction, either. And it was acutely painful, physically and mentally, to try.)

 

Boy, isn't that the truth!

I know that I am not "forbidden" but we sales types are often looked at as almost as bad as lawyers and generally shouldn't be allowed to try anything creative!

 

 

What then is it that you would like to do, that you think an editor does?

 

I am not entirely sure as to the editor duties. I would think that one looks at/hunts for sites that would be appropriate for his/her category but I don't understand where the writing of reviews comes in or what issues there might be with sub categories.

 

 

I was interested in becoming an editor but I tried to submit our company website a year or two ago and then made the mistake of resubmitting (I think) then asking about when it would show up. I was told to go stand in a corner for 6 mos and while doing so, I read a lot of the posts/flames back and forth and decided not to risk submitting our client’s sites and was afraid to ask more about editing so I gave up on the idea. I came back here because I ran across a never-ending forum thread on webproword and wanted to see what was happening.

 

I would probably be interested in working on fire department and fire service related websites if anything but like I said, I am not sure how to write a review or how to manage categories

[spectregunner]

A couple of thoughts immediately come to mind.

 

1. Help us with quality control. Pick a category. any category, it really doesn't matter which one. Now click on every link. Report any links to do not work, whose content has been changed to the degree they no longer fit in the category, or that have been hijacked. We have a thread on this forum expressly for that purpose.

 

2. If you know "stuff" go find the appropriate "stuff categories" and first do #1. Then go look for sites that would be appropriate for that category and suggest them. No quick emotional reqards for part two, and the suggestions ar subject to the exact same potential wait times as any other suggestion -- but you wil have contributed.

 

3. Swing by my house Saturday, the cars need detailing, and while you are doing that, I will edit. :D

[jimnoble]

We don't write reviews; we write descriptions of the sites that we list . There's a big difference in that we don't express an opinion.

 

Of course there is an element of review; we have to decide whether or not we're going to list a website.

 

For much more detail on these topics, see Site Selection Criteria and Descriptions.

[nea]

Aren't those 170 sites already done and all the new guy/gal have to do is work on the incoming stuff

A good editor would also check the existing listings; it is rather likely in any given category that at least some sites will have changed URLs, some may have changed their contents and need to be moved, and some probably have descriptions that should be amended (since guidelines for descriptions have changed a lot over the years). So the new editor would be expected to deal with those things as well -- and one of the things we don't want to do is overwhelm the new editor with a sense of an unending job you can never stay on top of. That feeling will come once you get a few more categories, but by then you'll be so hooked on the sheer fun of editing that you'll stay anyway