The ODP effect on search engines

[charlesleo]

lol Nea. That is a painful link thread to read. It reads something like the skit 'who's on first.'

[charlesleo]

Well I've got my site to top 30 in an incredibly competitive business category without being listed in the ODP. This is out of 8 million returns. It took about 2 weeks of playing from a revised site. I'm very happy with it - I would still like to be #1 though. Perhaps at the end of the month when Google re-indexes my PageRank will increase and it will push me up to top 10. This will indicate to me that it is VERY possible to get there without ODP reliance (I don't doubt there is that possibility, it just may make things more difficult.)

 

I will not say that it is easy to get to this place - it's involved alot of studying, website reorganization, and some tricky coding amongst other things. My site is mostly a gallery of images and a particular design (which I don't want to sacrifice as an artist/designer) which makes 'page relevancy' even more difficult considering there's little text to spider. It has taken me about 1.5 month's worth of work. In monitoring this - I haven't been able to crack the top 30 - it's just been hovering there for about a week.

 

In a reverse look-up of the top 30 results, almost all of them have been listed in the ODP. I've run an Alexa reverse traffic report on these sites and quickly saw how much an ODP listing propogates to other directories and search engine results - all of which have a decently high Page-Rank which gets passed on. The leads are quite remarkable and unmistakable. The problem is that these other sites will not let you independently submit since they are tied-in with the ODP.

 

Again, a listing here brings up 'the chicken or the egg came first' scenario. But undoubtedly, a listing does propogate very well adding to PageRank/TrustRank. Nevertheless, I am working hard to 'beat the system' one way or another.

 

Sorry to appear 'greedy.' I hate working for money, but as an artist I know all-too-well what starving for 8 years can do to you. It pretty much sucks. Having to do sales and beg is even worse. Whether or not a top 10 gets you any business - that's beyond my understanding and a best-guess at most.

[bobrat]

In a reverse look-up of the top 30 results, almost all of them have been listed in the ODP.

Probably a false interpretion of reality. What many fail to realize is that editors often do Google searchs and find the top listing sites and then list them in ODP if appropriate. So it should not be assumed that the listing in ODP made them in the top of Google search, it's just as likely that being on top in Google search got them into ODP.

 

I have a group of categories where hundreds of sites were added by me doing gGoogle searches. That represents about 95% of the category, only about 5% were ever submitted.

[Expertu]

I have a group of categories where hundreds of sites were added by me doing gGoogle searches. That represents about 95% of the category, only about 5% were ever submitted.

 

And many other editors do the same as you do.

[pvgool]

And many other editors do the same as you do.

For me it all depends on the kind of category. For some categories I only look at the suggestions as I know it to be the best source for new sites for that category. For other categories I regulary visit some specialised linklists and see what they have listed as new. For some other categories I just read the local newspaper and see which companies are advertising and have metioned their url. And for some I might do a search in G / Y / M.

[anandmaheshwari]

ODP Is The Best For Search Engine Placements & Rankings!!!

 

I Love impact of ODP on search engines.

 

100% Sure that ODP can give you the boost in your google page ranks and search engine keyword placements.

 

Search engine placements are driven 99% forcefully with the title tag that is used in the ODP for that site...

 

At last i wanna say the ODP is the best...

[Expertu]

I sometimes do a "search keyword site:.edu OR .gov" search too

[jeanmanco]

anandmaheshwari - you may feel sure, but where is your evidence?

 

The Open Directory title for a listing is anchor text (the text used in a link). Google certainly gives weight to anchor text. That is well-known and can be proven. But it does not give any more weight to anchor text from the Open Directory than from any other site.

 

Naturally the existence of ODP clones means that ODP anchor text will be multiplied. The effect of that is uncertain. There has been a suspicion for some time that heavy use of the exact same anchor text will be ignored by Google. However only Google employees know for sure. For all we know Google is capable of filtering out ODP clones and Wikipedia clones from its calculations of anchor text value.

 

Google announced recently that it is using 200 factors in ranking sites. Previously it used to say 100, so clearly its algorithm is getting more complex all the time. There is no simple answer that will consistently deliver top ranking.

[WRMineo]

... Google certainly gives weight to anchor text. That is well-known and can be proven. But it does not give any more weight to anchor text from the Open Directory than from any other site ... Google announced recently that it is using 200 factors in ranking sites. Previously it used to say 100, so clearly its algorithm is getting more complex all the time. There is no simple answer that will consistently deliver top ranking.

 

This is an awesome discussion, and this particular section catches my eye, because right here is where a lot of the confusion takes place, even for "seasoned" folk .... PR and SERP and completely separate factors. Granted, there is undoubtedly some overlapping factors between the two, but the factors for better SERP and PR and otherwise separate issues. Just my .02 ...

[charlesleo]

What many fail to realize is that editors often do Google searchs and find the top listing sites and then list them in ODP if appropriate.

Definitely. You all helped make me aware of this in the other 'letter' thread. Up to 28 today btw - it keeps bouncing.

[charlesleo]

Update. My site is hovering around #19 in Google with less than 2 months worth of work (which was a tremendous amount of work I may add.) It's off the searchable radar for the other search engines. But as a matter of opinion, that doesn't really matter as much to me. Earlier today I saw it hit #9 but it quickly fluttered away.

 

I don't know how much higher I could get without a Yahoo Directory and/or ODP listing - and even then I'm not sure what kinda of impact a listing on those two would have. Sans textual site content, I don't know what else I could possibly do to give an art/rendering gallery some juice.

 

I keep trying and trying and trying... Can I get listed based on persistence?

[hutcheson]

>I keep trying and trying and trying... Can I get listed based on persistence?

 

No. Persistence is highly counterproductive. You can get permanently non-listed based solely on persistence. Do what you can to make life peaceful and productive for the volunteers.

[spectregunner]

I don't know what else I could possibly do to give an art/rendering gallery some juice.

 

I have a genealogy website that is not listed in DMOZ, yet is #1 in Google for one of the two most important search terms.

 

An art rendering site is positivey exciting in comparison to a genealogy site -- yet by added such things as a discussion forum (primarily to provide information, rather than to foster discussion), a photo gallery, some "light" perspectives on the family histories, etc. the ranking was achieved -- and achieved fairly quickly.

 

I cannot (and would not) try and tell you what type fo content to add, but I would suggest that there is definitely content you could add -- you often just have to color outside of the lines.

[hutcheson]

Remember, neither you nor we can predict when the category will be worked. If you can't predict, you can't control even if you COULD manipulate--you don't know what effect your manipulation would have. And you can't really manipulate either.

 

This is a good thing, a good thing for you, really. Because if manipulators could control what happened, the affiliate-doorway-marketroid "webmaster" spammers would have long ago learned the secret; there are enough of them to keep the ODP editors trapped looking at spam FOREVER -- your site's chances would be ZERO for the next twenty-five years at least (the spammers would be that far ahead of you already). As it is, the site has a .001 or better chance of a review every day.

[Eric-the-Bun]

Personally I think that the Google/ODP myth is spread by so-called SEO'ers who charge their clients money for promotion and fail to achieve results. They then excuse their failure by stating that its because either the ODP wouldn't list the site or that the ODP had removed the keywords from the description. They then point to various forums full of posts by other SEO 'professionals' saying the same thing.

 

This latter happened to our firms site (which is nothing to do with me – I'm a firmware engineer). So I modified one page of my international folk dance site to promote one of the firm's key words and, lo and behold, I was UK #2 on Google for that product in two days . The firm then started listening to me and carried out my recommended changes (basically remove all the SEO rubbish) and within a few weeks we were up at #1 or #2 for most of our keywords.

 

See who benefits from the myth and factor that in.

 

regards

[charlesleo]

You can get permanently non-listed based solely on persistence.

I was semi-joking and trying to be innapropriately coy...

 

yet by added such things as a discussion forum... the ranking was achieved -- and achieved fairly quickly.

Agreed - those methods help tremendously as engines work harder to keep on top of feeds, blogs, and bulletin board sites.

 

I'm a stubborn graphic designer in that sense. My images speak words with little need for text. I don't want to sacrifice my design by adding on components - rss, newsfeeds, blogs, etc. Unfortunately, search engines cannot read what's within pictures cause that would involve an advanced form of artificial intelligence. So I'm 'stuck between a rock and a hard place' for now trying to look for other ways to communicate.

 

I have a genealogy website that is not listed in DMOZ, yet is #1 in Google for one of the two most important search terms.

Then that it is proof that it can happen without a listing here. Especially considering how many geneaology websites there are out there. I'm glad to hear that.

 

This is a good thing, a good thing for you, really.

I see your point in manipulation - it makes complete sense. I also don't think spammers would be the type that would go through the process of becoming an editall editor (I forget what DMOZ calls them) - but I could see someone in SEO attempting to do so to list a few of their clients. Again - is there any proof that manipulation occurs? No. And it would be extremely difficult to track down or offend without pointing fingers.

 

Personally I think that the Google/ODP myth is spread by so-called SEO'ers who charge their clients money for promotion and fail to achieve results.

No doubt that definitely occurs to some degree. I do however think a listing helps tremendously as it populates to many other directories and search engines which glean/partner with ODP.

 

So I modified one page of my international folk dance site to promote one of the firm's key words and, lo and behold, I was UK #2 on Google for that product in two days

It is an assumption that Google puts some emphasis on 'authorative' websites on a topic - mainly universities, public services, and major industry-leaders. It makes sense that a search engine would want to provide someone with the most useful/relevant information instead of sites out to strictly sell something. You can see various sites 'importance and popularity' to some degree in their PageRank stats (altho this is not always representative of what's considered an 'authority'): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_with_a_high_PageRank

 

A direct link from one of these authority websites could boost rankings tremendously. If there's too many unrelated links, than that site can be penalized rank-wise for spamming or unrelated content. I'd also assume that your engineering company wasn't suffering rank-wise prior to your addition as the two are not really related - but it helped push it over the edge.

[Eric-the-Bun]

When I launched my international folk dance club website last year I read lots of stuff on a lot of forums about SEO, SERPS and PR, realised it was totally confusing and, with experience, not at all accurate. The problem with evaluating any one factor is that you need to discount all the others in order to draw a valid conclusion and for that you need a test sample.

 

In the folk dance world, most people have better things to do than muck about on the Internet and there were quite a few UK international folk dance sites that had 0 back-links and were not in Google until my site appeared linking to them. I knew that none of them were doing any promotion for themselves, so I promoted them along with my site. After a month or two all these sites got ranked and all the sites 'settled' in Google.

 

The one place that none of these sites had was a listing in the ODP. However when I gained editing privileges in the appropriate category, I listed all the International folk dance sites and sat back to see the results and... nothing happened.

 

None of the 'virgin' sites increased their PR or changed their positions compared to others which already had an ODP listing. In fact the only noticeable change (after 4 to 5 months) was that the national organisation site (which had lots of natural back-links anyway) at #2 supplanted my site at #1 for our key words. This would be as expected if one site gets the extra link it did not have before.

 

The biggest 'boost' any of the sites got seems to have been my site linking to them in the first place before my site even ranked. I'd almost believe Google was ignoring back links apart from the ones that introduce the site to them.

 

Over same period, I have launched web-sites for 7 other folk dance clubs on my domain none of whom have an ODP listing and, though they only have a fraction of the links that my own club site has, they all appear at #1/2 or 3 for their keywords and, most of the time, have the same PR as my site (probably because they are folders on the same domain).

 

My conclusion FWIW, leave SEO alone and spend the time saved in carrying out some form a healthy exercise like folk dancing that will improve your quality of life.

 

regards

[charlesleo]

spend the time saved in carrying out some form a healthy exercise like folk dancing that will improve your quality of life.

So very true, although my dancing skills will get me killed.

 

My quality of life will also be improved even further if I can somehow manage to cover rent this month for the 72nd time (and I'm not joking about this.) It's put alot of gray hairs on my head.

 

* Update. #11 in the category today. Still no DMOZ.

 

Also came across this article which does bring up some questions of trust/relevancy between links which may be interesting to some people:

 

http://www.google.com/librariancenter/articles/0512_01.html

[jeanmanco]

That is an excellent article, which I read when it was first posted. Note that the helpful Matt Cutts does not go so far as to admit that Google is using TrustRank. He got asked how Google decides which sites are trusted. This was his reply:

http://www.google.com/librariancenter/articles/0601_03.html

[dermotz]

Search engines

 

The problem is, that most search engines work like that:

 

- Someone is looking for a specific website

- The search engines looks for the relevant DMOZ categories

- The search engines shows the busiest/most popular websites from that category using Alexa data which only knows website that do have DMOZ categories.

- Them the remaining results are determined using own search engine algorithms

 

it is not only a matter of a pagerank which you also get automatically by all directory websites using DMOZ data, but also of being a "known" website on statistical website such as Alexa telling most search engines how busy those websites are.

 

No DMOZ, no Alexa. No Alexa hardly any chance.

[motsa]

You're assigning waaaaay too much importance to both Alexa and the ODP when it comes to search engines.

 

I have a site that isn't listed in the ODP and has no data in Alexa but it will still come up in search engine results for specific keywords.

[hutcheson]

>The search engines shows the busiest/most popular websites from that category using Alexa data which only knows website that do have DMOZ categories.

 

Welcome to planet earth. The search engines work differently here.

 

I think you're mistaking cause for effect. Alexa lists the sites that are most popular. It doesn't make those sites popular.

[dermotz]

You're assigning waaaaay too much importance to both Alexa and the ODP when it comes to search engines.

 

I have a site that isn't listed in the ODP and has no data in Alexa but it will still come up in search engine results for specific keywords.

 

Ok, then look for a similiar website, listed on DMOZ and look at the Alexa stats. Then click on the category for all websites in that category and you fill find your website is not listed.

 

Sometimes editors of magazines, newspapers or tv shows use Alexa to decide which websites to test or to show (e,g, review of websites etc.)

 

They will never review your website as they do not appear on Alexa or the directory and as they are not listed on DMOZ in the first place.

 

And if you are not included you receive less visitors who read the magazine or see the tv show.

[motsa]

Sometimes editors of magazines, newspapers or tv shows use Alexa to decide which websites to test or to show (e,g, review of websites etc.)

 

And if you are not included you receive less visitors who read the magazine or see the tv show.

Again, I reiterate -- that's got little or nothing to do with search engines (which is what my post was addressing).

[dermotz]

>The search engines shows the busiest/most popular websites from that category using Alexa data which only knows website that do have DMOZ categories.

 

Welcome to planet earth. The search engines work differently here.

 

I think you're mistaking cause for effect. Alexa lists the sites that are most popular. It doesn't make those sites popular.

 

Of course not......but it is more convenient if a website is listed on DMOZ if you use Alexa.....and additionally you also get more traffic due to all the related effects.....of course the website itself must be good....but all the links from various dmoz based website and alexa and the search engine algorithms help websites...and they are disadvantaged if they are not listed....especially new websites.