Guest tac2502 Posted September 17, 2002 Posted September 17, 2002 RE: http://www.10w40.com/ I've been reading the discussions here and noted from another thread that the automotive queue might be pretty large - but I figured I'd make an inquiry just to set my mind at ease.. I submitted the site to the category: http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Autos/Repair/ about one month ago, and don't realistically expect it to be listed yet, but, is it possible to get a feel for how backed up this category might be? I had previously submitted the site in July of 2001, but it never showed up, and as a hobby site, it wasn't worth making repeated efforts. I still feel much the same way - it's not worth making a big broo-ha-ha (sorry, can't find the correct spelling in the dictionary...) over, but still, it would be nice to be on DMOZ too. Regards - Tom Campbell
Guest Posted September 17, 2002 Posted September 17, 2002 Over 500 listings waiting for review in that category. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'm going to look through it now and see how many are duplicates or already listed .
Guest tac2502 Posted September 17, 2002 Posted September 17, 2002 Wow - thanks for the quick reply. Your response confirmed my fear. I gave up last year (actually, after about 2 months, I just forgot about checking...) I can relate to the efforts involved though - Finding sites, identifying the right categories, and writing short narratives is time consuming; although I do it for specific articles, not whole web sites. Still, it takes me an average of 5-10 minutes per review, and my brain gets fried after about 20 or 30 at a time. Tom
Guest tac2502 Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 Any news on the chaff review of the auto repair category? (Do you guys have an official term for weeding out the garbage requests in a queue? - seems like separating the wheat from the chaff to me <img src="/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) Alternately, any idea if the editors are still actively reviewing the category, or whether the buildup is just because they might be so busy in other categories that this one hasn't been attended to for a while?
beebware Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 A quick spam bust (removing widely inappropriate submissions such as a Dentists site(!!), deleting duplicate submissions, removing deeplink spam, moving foreign language sites over to the relevant World/ category and moving some sites to the appropriate Regional/ category - despite the 'category submission guidelines' stating that local garages etc would NOT be listed under Rec/Autos/Repair ) brings the total number of unreviewed to under 400... Still a long way to go though - so don't hold your breath.
totalxsive Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 Oh, so that's why I was getting 'Site Not Found' errors. Darn beebwares, working on a category at the same time as me <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />.
dfy Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 I wish the process was as easy as seperating chaff from wheat. Unfortunately weeding out the poor submissions is quite a task and can take up most of an editor's time. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> The unreviewed queue in that category has significantly reduced since the last time you asked, but your site is still there waiting to be reviewed.
Guest tac2502 Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 Feel free to remove this if too OT - but; What are you guys doing up at this hour?
totalxsive Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 We're both based in the UK, where it's actually about midday. The category is now down to around the 375 mark, if you're interested.
beebware Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 Both totalxsive? I think you are forgetting poor dfy there... I was actually awake until 4am British time (3am UTC/Zulu/GMT) and I've been up since around 9.30am - most of that time is working on the ODP...Talk about dedication <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> (damn totalxsive - I go to move a site to the appropriate Canadian category and it disappears. drat... Oh well, I'll go clear some unreviewed from somewhere else - but where to start? <img src="/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> )
totalxsive Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 >> Both totalxsive? I think you are forgetting poor dfy there... << Hmmm, oops <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> . Darn me.
Guest tac2502 Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 Silly me - I should have looked at the info under your names in the author category. I've gotten so used to US when I see English on the Web since I moved to Germany last year. Without hearing the accent, I keep thinking of English in upper midwest terms (grew up in Minnesota). I HAVE to stop thinking that way... Looking forward to my next UK trip in December - London right before Christmas. Silly time to come, but all the CIO's wanted someplace to take their wives shopping for the December meeting.
Guest tac2502 Posted September 23, 2002 Posted September 23, 2002 Note: Of course, while _I'm_ now in Germany, 10w40.com is still dedicated entirely to the US market. Didn't want to confuse things with that last post. Tom
Guest tac2502 Posted September 28, 2002 Posted September 28, 2002 Is the Autos category still up around 400 queued? Anyone know if the editors are still checking in with these categories?
beebware Posted September 28, 2002 Posted September 28, 2002 It's only been a week since you last enquired - so please wait a bit longer. At the moment, most editors are concentrating on removing 'dead-links' that have been flagged, so reviewing new sites have been put temporarily on the backburner (so to speak). The category is still under the 400 unreviewed site mark, but hopefully should be going down further within the next month or so.
Guest Posted October 13, 2002 Posted October 13, 2002 I've significantly reduced the backlog and have started looking at what's left. Sorry to say, your site appeared to me to be overwhelmingly full of affiliate links, both overt and deceptive. Not going to be listed in that form.
Guest tac2502 Posted October 14, 2002 Posted October 14, 2002 Thank you for taking a look at 10w40. I do differ with your opinion (not really a surprise, I suppose) I invite other metas to weigh in on the points below. I hope this doesn't make me a poster child... I've been reading the discussion threads for the past few months regarding what is unique, original, useful content site vs sites where affiliate links ARE the content and offer nothing new of value. Based on the DMOZ discussions I've seen here in the past, and how the shades of gray have been interpreted in the final outcomes, 10w40 should be well into the "clean" category. I would not have submitted 10w40 to DMOZ if I felt that it did not offer something unique and truly useful to the general public. The site is comprised of over 300 reviews of direct repair articles that I have tracked down in my own research to do work on my own cars (brake repair, headliner replacement, and LOTS of diagnosis articles) i.e.: http://www.10w40.com/pages/fix_diag_noise.asp Finding repair articles, writing reviews, ranking, and indexing the deep links directly to the articles is time consuming for me as the editor of the site, but of great value for someone looking for to diagnose why their Dodge Ram stalls whenever they exit the freeway. There is also an active discussion section where people post problems and solutions for each other. You are right though, there are affiliate links peppered throughout the site. There are right-column graphic ads (no-one ever clicks on them, but they add color to the site). There are also 2 text sales ads (red text) on each page. Certainly the arm of the site that lists parts suppliers http://www.10w40.com/pages/buy_part.asp has quite a few, although even then, only 15 of the 45 suppliers are affiliates, the remaining 2/3rds are just sites that I think are good sources for special parts but have no relationship to. Also, some listings start off with a review of alldata.com, a site that sells manuals online, for people who really need an answer immediately and can't find it on the 10w40 site. Would putting "Sponsored Link" beside the description like Yahoo does help the DMOZ editors feel better about mixing affiliate and non-affiliate links in a list of reviews? So, I do agree that there are SOME affiliate links on the site. While collecting all this information and writing up reviews is a labor of love, I do have to pay the hosting bills. The affiliate links are advertising, not content. The industry has established that advertising does not have to always be graphic, nor limited to a particular section of web page real-estate. If they were on the CPM model instead of affiliate, would they be viewed differently? But when it is all said and done, there are over 300 reviews of auto repair and upgrade articles, and about 40 links to affiliate sites. The reviews are checked regularly, and new ones added as I find them or people suggest them to me. It is a content site that also has a few ads (affiliate links) to pay the bills.
Guest tac2502 Posted October 14, 2002 Posted October 14, 2002 Just to summarize the issues (whether they apply to 10w40 or other sites): First, I absolutely agree that to be included, a site must offer unique, original content. Sites that use affiliate links exclusively or primarily (pictures and product descriptions) are neither unique nor original. However, for sites that do offer unique, original content but also include advertising (as most do): Since CPM ads are dead for any site under 100,000 visitors a month, is using affiliate links in place of CPM a death knoll for DMOZ inclusion? How about when those ads are text links instead of graphics? Does this cross the line? And now for the humdinger: when editorial content is mixed with advertising (whether affiliate or other payment vehicle), what kind of disclosure is necessary? I've come to the conclusion that at least for 10w40, any time I include a link out that is not visibly different than other "objective" links out, I will be adding "sponsored link", just like the bigger directories are. (It will take a few weeks to change the templates for me though). Is this a reasonable standard for DMOZ to consider in it's evaluation of sites where legitimate content may be mixed with revenue generating content?
motsa Posted October 14, 2002 Posted October 14, 2002 I haven't looked at every inch of your site but in looking at one of the pages you noted (http://www.10w40.com/pages/buy_part.asp ), it's difficult to see the content for the affiliations. That first page contains nothing but affiliate links. Subsequent pages seem to contain a mix of the two. Other sections, as you mentioned, have a slightly lower degree of affiliate links but you still have an awful lot of them and they are "in your face". This makes the "content" of the site seem to be predominantly affiliate links...which don't get listed.
Guest tac2502 Posted October 14, 2002 Posted October 14, 2002 The Buy_part page is the one "branch" of the site where there are a significant number of affiliate links. I included it in the prior post as an example to make clear that I was not trying argue the fact that there are some affiliate link - by posting an example of the worst page. The other branches are relatively free of links, except for the alldata.com link that comes up as the first review on some. http://10w40.com/pages/fix_diag.asp http://10w40.com/pages/fix_repair.asp http://10w40.com/pages/fix_maint.asp The above branches are the "meat" of the site, and where visitors spend the majority of their time. And as you noted, the parts page has significant affiliate (sponsored) links on the first page, but the following 4 pages have very few (sponsored links are weighted to display first). (Edited to correct link paths)
motsa Posted October 14, 2002 Posted October 14, 2002 Every single page of the site contains at least 8 affiliate links (4 on the side, 1 on top, 1 at the bottom, and 2 or more within the list of links). Much of the "content" that is left is just links to threads at other forums (not articles). Yes, there is other stuff there but you're making it difficult for the reviewing editor(s) to actually find any of it (note: I am not one of them). BTW All of the autotruck.net links on your site are bad, since the domain is up for sale.
Guest tac2502 Posted October 14, 2002 Posted October 14, 2002 www.10w40.com - Constructive Criticism OK - so submitting to ODP isn't supposed to be a design review - but I'm going to try to make lemonade here... Since it appears that the reviewer felt that the percentage of indexed sites and article reviews that also paid referral fees was too high (40 out of 300 or so), I undertook the challenge to cut it down. Looking at traffic stats for the site (it's been running for about 18 months now) I saw that only 7 or 8 of the referral links were really being used by visitors - they didn't place much value on the other 35 or so. So I cut them. I didn't cut them to appease the editor, I cut them because users didn't value them. I also added red "sponsored site" text next to the referral links ala the monster portals and search engines. It will be interesting to study how users respond to the changes over the next few months. (Half the reason for creating 10w40 was just to see what kinds of problems people come to the web hoping to solve) I don't know if the above will fit within the editor's definition of acceptable. 200 hand selected and written reviews to specific auto repair solutions. 8 advertisers. Where advertisers also offer solutions, I've added the words" "sponsored site" to the review. I'm biting my tongue, as I would not have viewed 10w40.com as an overly "referral" oriented site before, but the site is marginally better for having culled some dead wood.
Guest Posted October 14, 2002 Posted October 14, 2002 Re: www.10w40.com - Constructive Criticism I agree that the articles are particularly good content, but the overall feeling I get is that this is an affiliate-driven site with some good content thrown in. I wish it were the other way around.
Guest tac2502 Posted October 14, 2002 Posted October 14, 2002 I don't want to get into a spitting match here. But let's look at these issues one at a time. Claim: 8 Affiliate links on each page. Yup - you're right. They're advertising. Here's my view on advertising and affiliate links. http://www.resource-zone.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=9851&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1 You might not like 10w40's design, but it's a popular ad placement design, used by many of the largest information-oriented web sites. Claim: Some of the links are to forums. Yup, you're right. It's easy to link to web sites (no offense to the work that ODP editors do), but finding a specific answer to diagnosing a car problem is hard. I traverse bulletin boards, industry trade group sites, and even other auto repair sites, looking for the articles that normal people would NEVER find using Google. I guess I could steal those other authors' works and lay claim to it myself, but that would be wrong - instead I write up reviews, categorize the answer (whether it is in a forum or a stand-alone article) and send the person to that site. It's a pain - deep links change (thanks for pointing out another site that I have to update my database for), and whole sites disappear. But for a person with a specific problem they are looking to solve, using 10w40's reviews is a whole lot easier than skimming through 42 pages of altavista search results. And if you think that writing site reviews and linking to other sites has no value to users, then - oh that's too obvious. Yes, there is more there. The discussion areas are fairly active and I have 4 regular moderators. I've been trying to play by the rules here, not rip anyone off, place my cards on the table. ODP could, and should, be the ethical alternative to Yahoo. I know there are still editors and Metas who have this vision. But based on the posts I've seen in these forums over the past 6 months, there is a strong body of members who enjoy the power more than they respect the responsibility they have been given.
Guest tac2502 Posted October 15, 2002 Posted October 15, 2002 kctipton: I wanted to let you know that I don't have any ill feelings toward your comments regarding this issue. Your first analysis was based on your experience with people trying to sneak affiliate sites in, and caused me to re-think the value of some of the links - and I ended up removing a number of them. The additional comments by motsa did get my dander up because they are so indicative of the mindset that anything with link tracking is bad, even when it is simply advertising / and-or / that sites should exist without advertising altogether. From your posts kctipton, I would not put you in the same category as motsa, and therefore not the subject of my ire. Your concern about listing 10w40 seems more focused on the ethics of mixing objective and sponsored content. This is something I can get my hands around and have a level-headed conversation about. At 10w40 there are about 200 (now a little less since some dead links were pointed out) reviews of individual pages with auto solutions, plus about 45 links to online stores (in a different branch), 7 or so of which generate income. Even before, when there were 40 income generating reviews, there was still a high degree of editorial decision making going on. There are at least 150 automotive related affiliate programs I could have linked to, but I felt that only 40 or so had quality products and a reputation that I would recommend. I've since lowered that to less than 10. To my mind, this is a reasonable ratio, particularly since they are not intermixed with the solutions links. If you disagree, that is your perogative as an editor. I feel differently and would think that most people "on the outside" would side with me, but you're the one that makes the decision. However, if 10w40 can't cut it as a valid content site, it is really a statement about directory sites entirely - and a full discourse in one of the other forums is necessary. Maybe ODP should disallow all directory sites as a matter of policy. Of course, if directory sites (reviews of other sites or web pages) have no inherent value, then it really calls into question why ODP editors should spend so much time helping build one anyway. Strange irony to the whole issue.
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