Different Category
- Thread starter compreso
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jimnoble
DMOZ Meta
Generally, our editors are a much better judge of which category is most appropriate for a website than website owners.
That none of your move requests have been actioned (most editors give them priority) suggests that this is true in your case
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That none of your move requests have been actioned (most editors give them priority) suggests that this is true in your case
.With all due respect that is not true. On Dmoz we put in the following category:
http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Law/Services/Expert_Witnesses/Financial/
Even though that is a small part of our business that is not our main business and not what we market. We are a Executive Compensation consulting firm and should be put in the following category:
http://www.dmoz.org/Business/Human_Resources/Compensation_and_Benefits/Compensation/
We are in the same business as these other companies who happen to be our competitors. What do I have to do to make this happen?
http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Law/Services/Expert_Witnesses/Financial/
Even though that is a small part of our business that is not our main business and not what we market. We are a Executive Compensation consulting firm and should be put in the following category:
http://www.dmoz.org/Business/Human_Resources/Compensation_and_Benefits/Compensation/
We are in the same business as these other companies who happen to be our competitors. What do I have to do to make this happen?
What the ODP editor is giving you, if you're willing to listen, is some extremely valuable feedback on how your website appears to an unbiased reviewer, approaching it without your preconceptions.
You could, if you're interested, go back and look at your website in this light. You may find some changes are needed to prominently reflect the broader range of services you wish to offer.
With that new understanding of the real problem, you could probably hire independent website consultants who could work with you to show you how to present that full range of services. (The ODP doesn't offer any kind of business services, but you can probably find someone else who does.)
When your independent consultants agree that you're giving the right message clearly on the site, then it would be worth using the ODP site suggestion system to suggest moving the site to a different category.
Trying to skip the work and simply assume the authority to order the editor to do your will, won't work. Authority is something that has to be established separately in every community. You don't yet have a reputation for understanding the ODP taxonomy, and you'd be arguing with people who do.
You could, if you're interested, go back and look at your website in this light. You may find some changes are needed to prominently reflect the broader range of services you wish to offer.
With that new understanding of the real problem, you could probably hire independent website consultants who could work with you to show you how to present that full range of services. (The ODP doesn't offer any kind of business services, but you can probably find someone else who does.)
When your independent consultants agree that you're giving the right message clearly on the site, then it would be worth using the ODP site suggestion system to suggest moving the site to a different category.
Trying to skip the work and simply assume the authority to order the editor to do your will, won't work. Authority is something that has to be established separately in every community. You don't yet have a reputation for understanding the ODP taxonomy, and you'd be arguing with people who do.
That still does not make any sense. We have one page on our site concerning litigation support and many more pages concerning compensation. We don't need to hire someone to tell us our main purpose of our site is compensation and not litigation. I wrote our site and I know exactly what is written on there and dmoz is 100% wrong. Can someone please help me get this changed? I implore you to actually go to our site and see the content that is actually on there.
It may be that the ODP taxonomy won't ever make sense to you. It represents years of discussions, sometimes ending in compromises that didn't make anyone really happy. But we can't discuss here whether you are right or not.
But if you are right, the way to proceed would be to do an "update listing" suggestion.
The company name is, I assume, correct on the website and correctly transcribed in the current listing.
The website description could say something like "Offers such-and-such services." Make sure that the description accurately matches the range of services prominently listed on the site (in the main page or closely linked). Also compare the services listed with the description of the category you think the site should be listed in.
And then, describe the nature of the change as "move to such and such a category."
As is necessary for the editors' safety, this is a suggestion, not an order, and not an invitation to a dialog. The editor _must_ remain free to do what is best for the directory, even if it is often not what website owners want.
So "how can I force some change to be made?" is really a bad way of thinking about it. The short answer is always "you can't". The long answer is, it really ought to come down to what the website (all by itself, without any ancilliary discussion) persuades the editor to do.
The assurance you can have is not that anyone will be responsible to you as the website owner--nobody will. The assurance is that volunteers usually don't waste their valuable free time on the ODP unless they care about getting it right.
But if you are right, the way to proceed would be to do an "update listing" suggestion.
The company name is, I assume, correct on the website and correctly transcribed in the current listing.
The website description could say something like "Offers such-and-such services." Make sure that the description accurately matches the range of services prominently listed on the site (in the main page or closely linked). Also compare the services listed with the description of the category you think the site should be listed in.
And then, describe the nature of the change as "move to such and such a category."
As is necessary for the editors' safety, this is a suggestion, not an order, and not an invitation to a dialog. The editor _must_ remain free to do what is best for the directory, even if it is often not what website owners want.
So "how can I force some change to be made?" is really a bad way of thinking about it. The short answer is always "you can't". The long answer is, it really ought to come down to what the website (all by itself, without any ancilliary discussion) persuades the editor to do.
The assurance you can have is not that anyone will be responsible to you as the website owner--nobody will. The assurance is that volunteers usually don't waste their valuable free time on the ODP unless they care about getting it right.
I will review the site and do an update listing once again with a more detail list of changes. I do wish dmoz.org would get to me in some form explaining why my update could not be accepted. That is very poor management on their part. How do I know it was even looked? I guess when no one is held accountable that happens.
makrhod
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All editor actions are logged, and all volunteers are required to follow the editor guidelines. That seems pretty accountable to me.
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Maybe it is because of a misunderstanding.compreso said:
You are not making an update. You are not requesting and update. The only thing you are doing is suggest to an editor that a current listing might need a change.
Many update suggestions make the error to not follow our guidelines and try to describe the website in hyped marketing keywords. Such a suggestion will be rejected and we might miss another aspect of the listing that should be updated.
There are enough problems already with webmasters thinking the ODP offers them services. If something like this were done, it would reinforce that unfortunate misapprehension; worse, most of the time it would probably be mistaken as the beginning of a negotiation--which, based on experience, invariably wastes time and almost invariably ends inamicably.
Better, far better, to cut the whole debacle off before it gets started.
Oh no ;-)
My biassed opinion is the following:
1. An ODP editor will never admit a mistake - they will always manage to argue that their decision was correct.
2. They will always assume everything is correct and was done right. It is extremely difficult to convince the DMOZ staff of the opposite.
3. There is no way to make a complaint and there is no ombudsman as such.
4. DMOZ is not a democratic governed society, it is a pyramid like structure with unknown, secret people at the top that can do whatever they like, without having to be responsible for anything.
5. DMOZ editors are always in the win-position. They have all kinds of possibilities to annoy you if they want. They can kick you out, move you to wrong categories, or delay submission/changes infinitely....and you can't do anything about it.
6. You can't ignore DMOZ because many companies use DMOZ data so it has a far-reaching effect.
To sum it up, DMOZ is a club with lots of power, no responsibility and no way to officially contact them.
My biassed opinion is the following:
1. An ODP editor will never admit a mistake - they will always manage to argue that their decision was correct.
2. They will always assume everything is correct and was done right. It is extremely difficult to convince the DMOZ staff of the opposite.
3. There is no way to make a complaint and there is no ombudsman as such.
4. DMOZ is not a democratic governed society, it is a pyramid like structure with unknown, secret people at the top that can do whatever they like, without having to be responsible for anything.
5. DMOZ editors are always in the win-position. They have all kinds of possibilities to annoy you if they want. They can kick you out, move you to wrong categories, or delay submission/changes infinitely....and you can't do anything about it.
6. You can't ignore DMOZ because many companies use DMOZ data so it has a far-reaching effect.
To sum it up, DMOZ is a club with lots of power, no responsibility and no way to officially contact them.
I don't think I've ever known an editor who said that editors don't sometimes make mistakes. We're human. Mistakes happen to the best of us. But experience tells me that most of the time what non-editors might perceive as a mistake is in fact us following our guidelines.
If you're talking about posts here, I think you'll find that most editors are speaking generally since we don't permit the discussion of specific web sites here. Therefore, they can't assume anything about the situation surrounding any specific site.
If you have reason to suspect abuse, there is our public abuse reporting system at http://report-abuse.dmoz.org.
Just like any other editor, those at the top are expected to edit according to the guidelines.
Any editor doing any of that deliberately wouldn't remain an editor very long. We take abuse very seriously.
Many site owners do quite well without any ODP listing. You don't need to be listed in the ODP to rank well. Most SEO and webmaster forums will tell you just that.
We have no control over anything but our own site, and all of our actions there are logged. Any editor can check up on any other editor. Regarding contacting us, if we were offering you a service, you'd be right to be upset about that. But we're just doing our own thing. We allow you to suggest your site to help us out but that doesn't obligate us in any way on your behalf.
Yes, it does not belong to me. It does not belong to the editor either.
DMOZ is like Open-Source - it belongs to the people. It is not done to entertain DMOZ editors and keep them busy - it has a PURPOSE. The directory is there foe the people.
Sometimes editors seem to forget what the reason of DMOZ is.
Some seem to think it is their "personal playground".
The meaning of DMOZ is more then just what you describe it was.
It is not a small mini-directory run by 5 people. It is huge and has an importance due to many dependent other projects and portals etc.
Of course a website can live without DMOZ - this is not the point.
The point is DMOZ itself is a philosophy - a directory of categorized websites that seem to be "worth" to be listed.....helping people to find their way around the internet. And a single editor can not decide to remove a website/decline a website that meets the guidelines and is supposed to be part ot this list. This is not a matter of personal opinion - there are clear rules and factors. This is not comparable to "personal tastes" - decisions should be based on facts and rules.
DMOZ is like Open-Source - it belongs to the people. It is not done to entertain DMOZ editors and keep them busy - it has a PURPOSE. The directory is there foe the people.
Sometimes editors seem to forget what the reason of DMOZ is.
Some seem to think it is their "personal playground".
The meaning of DMOZ is more then just what you describe it was.
It is not a small mini-directory run by 5 people. It is huge and has an importance due to many dependent other projects and portals etc.
Of course a website can live without DMOZ - this is not the point.
The point is DMOZ itself is a philosophy - a directory of categorized websites that seem to be "worth" to be listed.....helping people to find their way around the internet. And a single editor can not decide to remove a website/decline a website that meets the guidelines and is supposed to be part ot this list. This is not a matter of personal opinion - there are clear rules and factors. This is not comparable to "personal tastes" - decisions should be based on facts and rules.
Er, not quite. The ODP isn't open source, and it belongs to AOL, not "the people". AOL offers up the data for "the people" to use, but it doesn't belong to "the people".
It may or may not have importance. We're just puttering around, enjoying our hobby, which happens to be categorizing sites.
"worth" as you're using it seems to imply a "best of the Web" philosophy. All sites that meet our listability guidelines are "worth" listing. But being worth listing doesn't mean that an editor will get around to listing that site. That's where the nature of our volunteer "workforce" comes into play.
Editing decisions are based on our guidelines. That you (or others) may not completely comprehend our guidelines in action doesn't mean that the guidelines aren't being followed.
I completely agree with you. But if 5 or 6 different DMOZ editors independently have approved websites over several years and single DMOZ editor removes them, this is a bit strange.
This either means all other DMOZ editors have less to say then a single DMOZ editor or that a single DMOZ editor's opinion counts more then that of lots of other editors.
This either means all other DMOZ editors have less to say then a single DMOZ editor or that a single DMOZ editor's opinion counts more then that of lots of other editors.
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Not for me.dermotz said:
If a website has changed or if the DMOZ guidelines have changed it is possible that a website is not listable anymore. No need to ask the editors who listed it previously. Maybe these editors aren't active anymore.
Looking at half-a-dozen edits simply doesn't give any kind of basis for knowing what's strange and what's perfectly normal.
If you want to know what's strange, there are several editors here who've single-handedly deleted tens of thousands of listings: you could just ask.
If you want to know what's strange, there are several editors here who've single-handedly deleted tens of thousands of listings: you could just ask.
Wrong Category
I have tried to update our listing into the right category a few times following the guidelines to a T. The site has yet to be moved into the correct category. I know the editors will read this and all I am asking is to me why we are in an expert witness category and not a compensation category with all of our competitors. Dmoz.org should not be able to have this much power if they can't keep up with the requests or be able to pick and choose and their leisure. No communication is ever met. Why even bother asking for the email if no one expects the contact the submitted on reasons why update cannot be completed.
I have tried to update our listing into the right category a few times following the guidelines to a T. The site has yet to be moved into the correct category. I know the editors will read this and all I am asking is to me why we are in an expert witness category and not a compensation category with all of our competitors. Dmoz.org should not be able to have this much power if they can't keep up with the requests or be able to pick and choose and their leisure. No communication is ever met. Why even bother asking for the email if no one expects the contact the submitted on reasons why update cannot be completed.