Directory Attitude - An Open Letter to DMOZ!

Other editors have already spoken well and there's no need to reinforce their comments. Anyway, I have a few topics of my own to add .

I'm normally pretty succinct in my responses - it's both my Yorkshire upbringing and my desire to be clear and to the point. They're not intended to be rude. I guess I could dress them up with a bunch of extra words, but that might blur the message and would take time away from other activities.

Many of the posters here, editors and non-editors alike, don't have English as their first language and there's also a great cultural spread. I have to say that I'm continually amazed at how well we do communicate.

Another thing that amazes me is how polite we are to posters who decide that Forum Guidelines - READ BEFORE POSTING don't apply to them .

Sometimes, people post a bunch of flat out lies here or have been provably deceitful when applying to become an editor. We try very hard to remain courteous but I admit that, being human, I find it difficult.

Lastly, we sometimes impart news that the poster doesn't want to hear. That shouldn't be confused with rudeness.

So DMOZ is not a first come first serve basis

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No, it is very much a lottery but suggestions are never discarded through age.

Every editor approaches their editing differently and one 'benefit' (in a way) is that no one can expect to 'buck the system'.

Some editors make a point of reviewing suggested sites in date order, others by the quality of the descriptions, others may be looking for a type of site under-represented in the category, and so on.

The ODP is human-edited and thus is eccentric, frustrating, and unpredictable from the outside. Hence our slogan 'Suggest and Forget'.

regards

Also you are stating that some editors manually fill out the directory based on the initial search results in an engine such as Google.

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Yes! I started in critical care nursing. There were seven sites. One was mine, I was moving my site and updating backlinks (though I didn't know of the term in 1999). IIRC, there were two other bad links. When I saw the category, I knew of dozens which could be listed and applied. BTW, my site is no longer listed in the cat since I'd rather edit or do meta-stuff than update it, and it probably wouldn't qualify for a listing anyway - the bar for directory sites is pretty high.

I bet you never thought about nursing or Health as a place to edit either. If someone assigned me to a Business or Computer category because the suggestions are backlogged, I'd quit. I might go there sometime to help out, but I have no interest in being listed there at this time, though I have been a listed editor in small categories in both.

But that doesn't mean that I don't list sites which touch people's lives. Yesterday I was called out of report to help a doctor find information about tuberculosis meningitis - an infection which one of our (Intensive Care Unit) patients probably has. This was a patient from a third world country, flying across the USA on a plane, became ill on that plane, and the plane landed in the midwest so that he could receive medical care. None of us had ever seen a person with this particular form of tuberculosis. Within one minute I was printing an article, within two minutes I had printed another article, a case study, and an article with suggested a specific treatment with improved survival. None are listed in ODP, I doubt that any have been suggested, and all were in the top 10 Google results. Now I need to find some more sites, decided if a new subcategory is warranted, and figure out if it should be listed under meningitis or tuberculosis.

We have another senior editor whose son has cancer (hopefully now cured), who is doing incredible work in the cancer categories.

Removing an editor who hasn't edited in a month isn't practical either. I can work for hours a day on ODP, seven days a week, without making a single edit. We also have lives outside of here. Sometimes I have mandatory overtime, sometimes my elderly parents are sick, sometimes I'm sick. Should I be fired for that?

As lmocr said, if your motives are pure, apply for a small category. You might find editing more fun and rewarding than you could believe.

I think at this point it's time to call for a little professionalism -- not from the amateurs, not ever from the amateurs! -- but from those people who call themselves "professionals" ... and then claim they can't get started in their professions without amateur help.

To all them, -- act professional, or get out of the business. Don't go whining around that amateurs aren't giving you enough free promotion. Don't whine that your own promoters are so incompetent they're being overwhelmed by amateur effort. FIRE THOSE PROMOTERS! and hire someone who can do better than an amateur! Don't go whining around trying to hobble the amateurs because you can't compete!

Professionals: be professional. Either be better than the amateurs, or go find another business where you are competant to compete.

And let the amateurs be amateurs, even if they aren't doing what you want. Because you aren't doing what they want either! So who made YOU so superior that your claims on other people are paramount, and their claims on you are nothing? Allow other people the rights that you so easily claim for yourself --

and there won't be any conflicts at all.

>> Being a small business owner, this is almost a matter of life and death as I work largely over the Internet and have tried to use it as a source of obtaining new clients. <<

Hmmm. As I have deleted several dozen dead listings for sites that are now gone just recently, I can state that being in the ODP is not a guarantee for any sort of success at all. You believe that it is, and should your site be listed, I will bet that you find no noticable change in your sales or profits will occur.

At that point, what is your backup plan for greater wealth? If you have one, then start on it right now, it will make you more money than an ODP listing ever will.



>> I've been looking into this, and pretty much any website that is in the top 30 of Google is also listed in DMOZ. <<

Hmm, Chicken? or Egg?

Recently, I typed a couple of keywords into Google and then reviewed the top 30 sites listed there, and then I made a new category from all those that were listable.



>> It says right on the main DMOZ website, "72,384 editors" as if it is some number to be proud of. I am willing to be that "71,500" of those editors are dead, ineffectual weight. <<

Some 63 000 of those are past contributors to the project. Their work is still included in what is listed, and so their name stands in the roll call of those who have contributed.



>> Remove editors that haven't done a single thing within a month's time. <<

No. No. and No again.

We thank you for helping to feed the homeless, but unless you turn up here every Friday we do not ever want your help....

Imagine if your church charity operated like that?

The ODP doesn't either.



>> If you honestly think that things do not need to be fixed, that's fair. From my experience, I clearly see a largely broken and ineffectual system that needs to be readdressed. <<

We measure only the number of sites listed, and the total number of categories. Any other datum is pointless. Read the reports. The ODP continues to grow all the time. We don't track individual sites.



>> >> (I also come across a lot of suggestions from 2003 or earlier.) << <<

>> That's pretty bad if you don't mind me saying so. Youd think those should be bumped up or new editors assigned to those sections. <<

They get reviewed when a volunteer editor, ummm, volunteers to edit them, in their volunteer time.

There is no assigning of anything to anyone at any time.



>> I think it's more efficient and forces people to write proper descriptions from the very beginning, reducing the time needed for the editorial process. <<

Editors, umm, edit. Why do you think that it would it be more efficient to bounce a suggestion back to whoever suggested it, perhaps many times, than simply to edit what they submitted to make it directory compliant? We don't need to teach every surfer how to write compliant descriptions, especially since many submit just one site in their entire lifetime. Editors tidy up what is submitted and list it there and then.




>> >> Editors are required to make at least one relevant edit every 4 months - the time frame allows editors to take a short break from editing (real life comes first) << <<

>> That's seems too lenient. <<

Leniant!

Leniant?

Are you crazy?

You make it sound like being an ODP editor is some sort of punishment.

What of the editor with a serious life threatening illness, or who moves house, or who works away for long periods? You suggest that we dump them? Are you sure you weren't a POW camp guard in a previous incarnation?

""Well, thanks for your thousands of edits made last year, but as you only show up for 3 weeks every three months we don't want you to edit here any more...""

You seriously do not get what a volunteer community is all about.

"pvgool" said:

Why have you been waiting. Didn't you have anything better to do in all this time

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I take offense to this insult. I work very very very hard. Ony recently had I redone my website (everything inlcuding the graphics) and bothered to see if I had been previously listed in the ODP. I was shocked to see it wasn't.

"jimnoble" said:

Lastly, we sometimes impart news that the poster doesn't want to hear. That shouldn't be confused with rudeness

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For the most part, everybody has been kind and generous in their help - at least in response to this posting. All of your help has clarified alot of things that the 'Please Read' sections did not make obvious.

"Eric-the-Bun" said:

Hence our slogan 'Suggest and Forget'

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lol.

@Gloria - You sound like a great person and you have a very valid point. You've changed my opinion. I hope everyone is well also.

"hutcheson" said:

So who made YOU so superior that your claims on other people are paramount, and their claims on you are nothing?

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Huh?


On that last note. I will reinstate my initial reasons for posting - that I saw some very harsh responses to people who submitted to the ODP and inquired about it. If no one feels a need to do anything about this, then that is your choice. I am not saying everybody here is rude (apparently there's alot of very friendly editors), but some.


I was under the impression this volunteer service worked mostly on queue - and I tend to think most outsiders still do. At one point (even for a short period of time or in its infancy stages), I'm willing to bet it did work that way.

A source of alot of people's frustrations is due to the way this system is structured, the fact that they aren't listed, and that they think a lack of listing here will harm their listing success (again all speculative.)

I am in no way complaining - but just stating some simple facts. It appears there's alot of categories which are overlooked at for months - even years.

@giz. Please don't take what I've written out of context.

I thought the main point of this project is listing websites. Nothing more nothing less. I didn't realize (nor does the general public) that this is mainly organized by 'personal' editorial interest and that suggestions often have very little weight and the queue goes largely ignored.

"giz" said:

Editors, umm, edit. Why do you think that it would it be more efficient to bounce a suggestion back to whoever suggested it, perhaps many times, than simply to edit what they submitted to make it directory compliant?

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Yes. Simply hit a button 'Deny' and send an automated letter stating various reasons why their suggestion may have not been accepted. Ask them to correct any details following a checklist and let them resuggest. Quick, simple, and effective. One less step everyone has to worry about.

"giz" said:

Are you sure you weren't a POW camp guard in a previous incarnation?

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I didn't attack you. Please don't attack me.

"giz" said:

You seriously do not get what a volunteer community is all about.

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Again, please don't attack me. I do understand what a volunteer community is about as I contribute to other forums daily - I even help people out who can be viewed as competition by helping them improve their images. Check out my nick Jujubee on the Chaosforum at www.chaosgroup.com. Youll see over couple thousand volunteer postings helping other people.

>I was under the impression this volunteer service worked mostly on queue - and I tend to think most outsiders still do.

This is certainly a recurrent delusion. And it is hard to overcome.

But the fact is, the ODP could get alone fine without any suggestions at all. Or without any particular volunteer. We prefer to keep both. But if there were some vicious dictator that forced us to choose between editors who might not ever review any particular suggestion, and submitters, then we'd choose -- in a heartbeat! -- to keep the editors and drop the submitters. Because we can do without submitters. We cannot do without editors.

But suggestions are solicited, and editors kept on the rolls, because the presumption is that the ODP will get along better with every miniscule bit of help.

>A source of alot of people's frustrations is due to the way this system is structured

Very likely. The system is not structured so that it can be controlled by spammers. And any mechanism that gives more control to site suggestors, must inevitably give proportionately MUCH more control to spammers! So the editors, knowing the reality, are always working on ways to be LESS dependent on, LESS controlled by, LESS prioritized by, site suggestions. Going the other way is Not A Contemplatable Option.

and the queue goes largely ignored

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That's maybe true of some of the spammiest categories but they are the small minority. I can tell you that the regional category to which you recently suggested your website had an empty pool of websites awaiting review a few days previously. To me, that suggests that it's not being ignored at all.

OTOH The Business category you previously mentioned submitting your site to, well, I certainly have no intention of wading in there and I doubt I'm alone in that.

"motsa" said:

OTOH The Business category you previously mentioned submitting your site to, well, I certainly have no intention of wading in there and I doubt I'm alone in that.

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lol. Brutal honesty. I can't say I wouldn't want to edit the 'Dutch Line Dancing' section either...

Yes. Simply hit a button 'Deny' and send an automated letter stating various reasons why their suggestion may have not been accepted. Ask them to correct any details following a checklist and let them resuggest. Quick, simple, and effective. One less step everyone has to worry about.

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I respectfully disagree.

That actually adds many, many more steps to the process.

You submit a site.
I deny it and simply hit the button sending you a form letter.
You change one thing, resubmit
I deny it and simply hit the button sending you a form letter.
You change one thing, resubmit
I deny it and simply hit the button sending you a form letter.
You change one thing, resubmit
I deny it and simply hit the button sending you a form letter.
You change one thing, resubmit
I deny it and simply hit the button sending you a form letter.
You change one thing, resubmit
I deny it and simply hit the button sending you a form letter.
You change one thing, resubmit
I deny it and simply hit the button sending you a form letter.
You change one thing, resubmit
I deny it and simply hit the button sending you a form letter.
And so on.

I am not in the least interested in listing a site whose owner has modified/changed/redesigned/homoganized the site to meet ODP's requirements. I only want to list sites with genuinely interesting, unique content who have designed their sites to be useful and beneficial to surfers.

How about the option to do that as well as the option to edit it if you so desire?

It really doesn't take much time for an editor to write a Guidelines compliant description once you get the hang of it. Most of the time is spent sorting through the garbage that spammers submit and browsing the site to make sure that it has sufficient unique content.

Teaching someone who writes hype for a living has to do a 180 degree turn though, and it can take quite a bit of time to teach them how to write a non-hyped description.

How about the option to do that as well as the option to edit it if you so desire?

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Most of us enjoy editing.

If you're going to find a way to save us time, please find a way to remove spammers from the planet.

>Ask them to correct any details following a checklist and let them resuggest.

99% of the time, that would be a deliberate lie. The rest of the time, it would be either an accidental lie, or a maliciously deliberate lie.

Perhaps one-hundredth of one percent of the time, there would be something that could be done. I've rejected over 100000 suggestions, and in that lot didn't see ten that could have been "corrected" or that anyone would ever want "resuggested." It's simply not a problem that arises. There is nothing there to solve, and it's pointless to try to solve a nonexistant problem.

Or -- it's pointless to waste valuable resources trying to solve it. Look at it this way. Every night, before you go to bed, slap your face and say to yourself, "flim-flam-scam-spam-die-die-die!"

I promise you it'll work: you will never in all your born days, run into the problem with ODP submittals that concerns you. Never. I guarantee it.

I wish all the world's problems were so easy.

And it won't waste editors' time.

And so, it's not a problem that needs solving.

One thing that is probably not obvious is that although each and every category was created by someone interested in the topic at some point, that doesn't mean that that editor is still maintaining it, or is even an editor anymore. So right now Eric-the-Bun's Dutch Line Dancing category may be well maintained, but if he becomes interested in another topic or drops ODP as a hobby altogether, the category is likely going to be ignored except for occasional quality control unless another editor with an interest in Dutch Line Dancing shows up.

I'm sure that there are many categories that are fairly extensively developed which showed a lot of strong growth over a short period of time, and then have shown almost no growth since (although suggestions may be piling up). This is just part of the random nature of editing. If there were more editors with more varied interests, this effect wouldn't be so noticeable (that many categories go long periods without significant growth).

The response you got to your application to be an editor showed that the reviewer thought you would be accepted provided you applied to a smaller category. If you don't find one in Business that interests you, try a subcat for a hobby you have or try applying to edit your hometown in Regional. Once you are an editor and get some editing experience (and feedback on your work) you can apply for the Business category you were originally interested in. Many editors (myself included ) were rejected on their first application. Please try again.

I'm still shocked this system is setup mainly via interest, and queue is is largely ignored. But it does makes sense to keep editorial interest alive to keep it this way. Perhaps the suggestion page can be modified to say the following:

1) The header could say 'Suggest a Site' instead of 'Submit a Site'.

2) Wherever it says 'submit', the wording changes to suggest.'

3) Where it starts to say, "Please note: We are not a search engine and pride ourselves on being highly selective. We don't
accept all sites, so please don't take it personally should your site not be accepted" could be fleshed-out a bit to state:

"Please note: We pride ourselves on being highly selective. We don't
accept all suggested sites, so please don't take it personally should your site not be accepted. Contrary to popular belief, it is not our obligation or responsibility to anyone and/or search engines to list your suggestion.

There is alot of talk on the Internet on how a listing on DMOZ "improves search engine results." This is not necessarily the case. DMOZ has no control or obligation as to how any search engine chooses to rank websites.

DMOZ lists sites based mainly on volunteer editorial interest, and the suggestion 'queue' weighs little. A new site listing can appear live from several days to several years depending on individual editorial interests, category selected, and amount of spam to that category."

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I think without having a full-statement, the editors and moderators here will just continue to get slammed with 'why wasn't my site listed!' remarks from people and loads of resubmissions. I'm sure this eats up a good chunk of your time.

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On a separate note, I applied to edit a category that I was interested in, under:

http://dmoz.org/Business/Construction_and_Maintenance/Design/Illustration_and_Rendering/

There's currently 169 listings there. I don't see how this really seems "too broad" and send me a denial for this section - especially since I work in this field on a daily basis.

Too broad? Architectural Rendering and Illustration is very specific.

queue is is largely ignored

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That's because there is in fact no logic to considering it as a queue (I try to call it a heap).

Although queues exist in many parts of society, the asssumption is that it works in DMOZ. For example, when you go to a bakery, you assume you will line up and get served in turn. The bakery runs it that way, because it keeps customers happy. In fact from a bakeries point of view it would make better sense to serve the big spending customers ahead of the rest.

Banks (where I live) often have different level queues, those with simple transaction get to gfo to the fast queue. Those with lots of money to invest, get to bypass the queue and go directly to the managers office.

Supermarkets usually have an express line for those with less than 16 items

So in fact queues are not always implemented in the same way. The bottom line is usually just that people expect to be served in turn.

--- continued on nest post

OOPS = continued in post below. --> --> -->

charlesleo said:

On a separate note, I applied to edit a category that I was interested in, under:

http://dmoz.org/Business/Construction_and_Maintenance/Design/Illustration_and_Rendering/

There's currently 169 listings there. I don't see how this really seems "too broad" and send me a denial for this section - especially since I work in this field on a daily basis.

Too broad? Architectural Rendering and Illustration is very specific.

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Broad refers more to the number of listings and unreviewed in the category. Anything over 100 is, pretty much, automatically too big for a newbie. Something closer to ten listings (that you could easily triple) would be a good place to start.