DMOZ not responding
- Thread starter Jaga
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Eric-the-Bun said:My hobby is folk-dancing and I chose this category as my initial category to apply for not because I knew a lot about Polish folk-dance (in fact quite the reverse), but because it was a good choice for a beginner (no contentious issues, no spam, etc) to learn editing skills.
Eric,
you know, I am also a busy person and I did not even realize that you may be an editor there in something Polish. I looked at this category now and you are doing really a good job! Now I see that some categories are really being updated frequently and some others unfortunately are not. You are doing a great job but some categories just do not update like this one:
http://www.dmoz.com/Regional/Europe/Poland/Society_and_Culture/
I think, this was the category I wanted to be an editor in February and then they denied me. You can see, there is not too many links there and the link there are just so questionable. I guess, before I wanted to become an editor there I was simply trying to add my website there but probably my Polish Culture Site was less appropriate to this category than "Cities for Bicycles" which is listed there
I really do not try to be mean but if somebody compares the site run by Eric:
http://www.dmoz.org/Arts/Performing_Arts/Dance/Folk_Dancing/Eastern_European/Polish/
and this one:
http://www.dmoz.com/Regional/Europe/Poland/Society_and_Culture/
there is a huge difference
The list of suggestions to a category look like listings, that is, they have a URL, title, and description. But they aren't publicly visible: in the database you could think of them as being in invisible or "private" "Unreviewed" subcategories. (In contrast, the "public" categories are the ones you, as a member of the public, can see.) Many edits might happen while an "unreviewed suggestion" is modified and moved about through various Unreviewed categories.
You could describe an "add this site" edit as "adding" a suggestion, or you could think of it as "moving" a suggestion from the "private" Unreviewed subcategory to the "public" parent category.
The unreviewed categories are not just for non-editors to suggest additions and changes to listings: editors use them for many purposes including inter-editor communication, holding sites for a later re-review, and tracking activity on sites.
You could describe an "add this site" edit as "adding" a suggestion, or you could think of it as "moving" a suggestion from the "private" Unreviewed subcategory to the "public" parent category.
The unreviewed categories are not just for non-editors to suggest additions and changes to listings: editors use them for many purposes including inter-editor communication, holding sites for a later re-review, and tracking activity on sites.
http://www.dmoz.com/Regional/Europe/Poland/Society_and_Culture/ would have been too large for a new editor.
motsa][url]http://www.dmoz.com/Regional/Europe/Poland/Society_and_Culture/[/url said:
Dear motsa,
So, is it better to have no editor than a new editor? If it is such a big category why there are so little activities and it does not look that the websites that are listed are necessarily relevant, for instance:
C.U.K.T. - Technical Culture Central Office, cyberculture, Wiktoria Cukt for President!
what this has to do with Polish Culture?
http://www.dmoz.org/Regional/Europe/Poland/Society_and_Culture/
by the way, I applied today for one category, but not for this one so that nobody would suspect me of any bias
>So, is it better to have no editor than a new editor?
Yes, absolutely! "No editor" causes "no damage" that experienced editors have to repair.
Everyone starts out in a small category, and as they build knowledge and trust, they may move on to larger ones, if they wish.
Yes, absolutely! "No editor" causes "no damage" that experienced editors have to repair.
Everyone starts out in a small category, and as they build knowledge and trust, they may move on to larger ones, if they wish.
spectregunner
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This is one of the reasons that there is such trust between eitors, editalls and meta editors.
No one can buy their way in, no one gets promoted to a position of added responsibility without having demonstrated their ability to edit by starting out small and editing, and working their way to the top.
In real life I was talking to one of our quality control guys on Friday, making small talk. After we convered the important topics of weather and sports I asked him what he was doing. He said that he was on a different floor learing how the people there did their jobs, so that he could monitor and evaluate them in the future. We both shook our heads at the thought. Someone who had never done the job, only watch someone else do it, was going to be evaluating the quality of how someone else did their job. In a different organization, my wife was once given the job a traiing the new hire who was going to be her new supervisor.
Here in the ODP, that type of activity would never wash, because we don't have bosses or managers.
Hutcheson (just using him as an example) is a meta editor. He does not have the right to tell me (just an editor, but darned proud of it) what to do, when to do it, or how much to do. He can ask, but he cannot tell. He cannot say, Hey Frank, go to Category/xyz and clean up the unreviewed. He can only ask, or lead by example. Hey Frank, I'm going to Category/xyz and do some cleanup, can I count on your help?
He can, and should, periodically look at some of my edits to see if I am doing a good job, he should also look at my deletions, rejections and moves to see if I am editing in a guidelines compliant manner. And, he if sees problems, he has a responsibility to call them to my attention. Yet, this is not an easy undertaking. I edit in Regional/ Society/ Business/ and Recreation/ I probably have edits in more than 1,000 different directory categories. Where should he look?
Now, as I said, I am just a regular, run-of-the-mill editor, but there are other regular, run-of-the-mill editors who edit in subcats of categories where I have editing permissions. I make it a point to check on their work when they are first starting out. This is simple because they are in one small category, usually with no subcategories and I can just pop into the category, look at their body of edits and address any issues. Sometimes I'll just fix a problem, sometimes I'll unreview a listing if the issue is serious, sometimes I'll just notice a trend that I am uncomfortable with and shoot off an e-mail. Easy when the scope of small, very difficult when the scope is large. When I first started editing I had a couple of "godparents" who looked out for me and helped me get on a solid footing.
And, as a regular, run-of-the-mill editor, I am expected to look at all edits, not just those done by other, regular, run-of-the-mill editor. That means that if I came across an edit by Hutcheson that was not guidelines compliant, I would be expected to fix it or let him know it needs to be fixed, even though he is a meta editor and I am not.
I've used a lot of words to try and help you understand the importance of starting out small and building respect. Just understand there are no shortcuts in the ODP. You start out small and move up the ladder of responsibility one edit at a time.
No one can buy their way in, no one gets promoted to a position of added responsibility without having demonstrated their ability to edit by starting out small and editing, and working their way to the top.
In real life I was talking to one of our quality control guys on Friday, making small talk. After we convered the important topics of weather and sports I asked him what he was doing. He said that he was on a different floor learing how the people there did their jobs, so that he could monitor and evaluate them in the future. We both shook our heads at the thought. Someone who had never done the job, only watch someone else do it, was going to be evaluating the quality of how someone else did their job. In a different organization, my wife was once given the job a traiing the new hire who was going to be her new supervisor.
Here in the ODP, that type of activity would never wash, because we don't have bosses or managers.
Hutcheson (just using him as an example) is a meta editor. He does not have the right to tell me (just an editor, but darned proud of it) what to do, when to do it, or how much to do. He can ask, but he cannot tell. He cannot say, Hey Frank, go to Category/xyz and clean up the unreviewed. He can only ask, or lead by example. Hey Frank, I'm going to Category/xyz and do some cleanup, can I count on your help?
He can, and should, periodically look at some of my edits to see if I am doing a good job, he should also look at my deletions, rejections and moves to see if I am editing in a guidelines compliant manner. And, he if sees problems, he has a responsibility to call them to my attention. Yet, this is not an easy undertaking. I edit in Regional/ Society/ Business/ and Recreation/ I probably have edits in more than 1,000 different directory categories. Where should he look?
Now, as I said, I am just a regular, run-of-the-mill editor, but there are other regular, run-of-the-mill editors who edit in subcats of categories where I have editing permissions. I make it a point to check on their work when they are first starting out. This is simple because they are in one small category, usually with no subcategories and I can just pop into the category, look at their body of edits and address any issues. Sometimes I'll just fix a problem, sometimes I'll unreview a listing if the issue is serious, sometimes I'll just notice a trend that I am uncomfortable with and shoot off an e-mail. Easy when the scope of small, very difficult when the scope is large. When I first started editing I had a couple of "godparents" who looked out for me and helped me get on a solid footing.
And, as a regular, run-of-the-mill editor, I am expected to look at all edits, not just those done by other, regular, run-of-the-mill editor. That means that if I came across an edit by Hutcheson that was not guidelines compliant, I would be expected to fix it or let him know it needs to be fixed, even though he is a meta editor and I am not.
I've used a lot of words to try and help you understand the importance of starting out small and building respect. Just understand there are no shortcuts in the ODP. You start out small and move up the ladder of responsibility one edit at a time.
Eric-the-Bun
Curlie Meta
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Thanks.But there are many good categories on culture like that Regional/North_America/Canada/Ontario/Localities/O/Ottawa/Society_and_Culture/Ethnicity/ Here the Polish culture is found alongside all the other cultures to be found in Ottawa.
The directory is large and it is easy to find categories that are not as good as they could be, whilst no one could claim that any category is complete.
Sometimes the content of the website changes over time, sometimes an editor makes a mistake, sometimes it is not clear to an editor what is relevant (in which case
they should have asked).The point on relevancy is very important because sometimes the structure of a topic and the structure of the directory do not always fit perfectly together which leads to discussions with the 'experts' on the topic and the 'experts' in structure finding the best way to proceed.
regards
spectregunner said:
Thanks for explaining to me how the system really work. It is good that you have these meta editors who can revise some links without even asking or commanding you to do it
I understand that the starting editors need to begin with something small, so maybe if they apply for big category but.... their profile is good it is just that the category is too big, you may suggest them a smaller subcategory instead of rejecting their application?
I still do not believe that the system works really well. More than half of the websites that are listed in this category:
http://www.dmoz.org/Regional/Europe/Poland/Society_and_Culture/
just do not fit there at all
so it is hard for me to believe that it is better not to have any editor than to give somebody a chance.There should be some control over the categories that are either not updated at all or updated with wrong links. There should be some way to inform DMOZ about it
spectregunner
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Yes there is!
And we are glad that you asked.
This thread righ ton this very discussion forum is the perfect place to address specific sites that may not longer be appropriate for a given category. The thread is huge and I would advise you to read a few pages (near the end) to get a feel for the ebb and flow, and what we are looking for in a notification, before you undertake posting.
spectregunner
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I don't handle editor application -- that is a task reserved for meta editor -- but I have seen postings from new editors that suggest that in certain cases that does happen. I could be totally wrong though.
Ah, see, here's the importance of not letting just anybody hack at the directory.
The problem is, I think, that you don't understand what that category is for.
"Society and Culture" is a very general term -- it has to do with almost anything that people do together. Basically, any kind of organization that don't have a commercial, scientific, or artistic emphasis, would go somewhere in here. And anything that doesn't fit into one of the subcategories, would go into the parent category, at least until enough similar sites appear to create a subcategory for them all.
With that in mind, let's try a little experiment. You say "more than half" of those websites don't belong. So, pick any two, your choice ... and see if you can find a better category for each of them.
The problem is, I think, that you don't understand what that category is for.
"Society and Culture" is a very general term -- it has to do with almost anything that people do together. Basically, any kind of organization that don't have a commercial, scientific, or artistic emphasis, would go somewhere in here. And anything that doesn't fit into one of the subcategories, would go into the parent category, at least until enough similar sites appear to create a subcategory for them all.
With that in mind, let's try a little experiment. You say "more than half" of those websites don't belong. So, pick any two, your choice ... and see if you can find a better category for each of them.
hutcheson said:
Yes, I understand it - this is a very general category, hard to fit something, but not impossible. More effort need to be done to fix it, especially since this category is above the subcategories that means that this is the first one to be seen. If it is not fixed - people would stop trusting DMOZ. I noticed the same problem in other "general" categories.
Let me give you some examples:
http://www.kobiety.pl/
should be only listed in Polish DMOZ directory because its "English" version is just one page long and contains just general information about this organization
http://cukt.art.pl/ - what this is about???? Frankly I did not have any patience to open it all. The main website shows two links to CUKT and Peter Style which has NOTHING to do with Polish culture at all! In spite of the fact that the website is only available in Polish - I do not even understand what it is about!
http://www.sp5pbe.waw.pl/English/index.html
should be only listed in POLISH DMOZ under mass media - radio etc
++++++++++++++
I can give you the list of the sites which fits well there but that are not listed
spectregunner
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That is what differentiates surfers from editors.
Let me investigate more:
http://schlesien.htk-hamburg.com/
this is a website in German language talking about Silesia - a borderland between Poland and Germany. Should be definitively moved to German version under regions or borderlands.
Confederation of Polish mobility - should be moved to Polish vesrion of DMOZ probably under genealogy since it contains several articles but ONLY in Polish. English version is very poor, see here:
http://www.szlachta.org/2organpr.htm
http://galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl/~vahe/acs.htm
Armenian minority in Poland
should be probably listed either only in Polish version - under minorities or in a separate subdirectory with information about Polish minorities. Its English content is poor but I would stil list it somewhere under Polish minorities since it is the main website of main Armienian organization in Poland
http://schlesien.htk-hamburg.com/
this is a website in German language talking about Silesia - a borderland between Poland and Germany. Should be definitively moved to German version under regions or borderlands.
Confederation of Polish mobility - should be moved to Polish vesrion of DMOZ probably under genealogy since it contains several articles but ONLY in Polish. English version is very poor, see here:
http://www.szlachta.org/2organpr.htm
http://galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl/~vahe/acs.htm
Armenian minority in Poland
should be probably listed either only in Polish version - under minorities or in a separate subdirectory with information about Polish minorities. Its English content is poor but I would stil list it somewhere under Polish minorities since it is the main website of main Armienian organization in Poland
so, please explain why this website is more appropriate for this category:spectregunner said:
http://cukt.art.pl/
than this website:
<url removed>
that I cannot have listed for a year almost!
bobrat
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http://schlesien.htk-hamburg.com/ is a site in both German and English, therefore it could be listed in two different categories.
http://www.szlachta.org/2organpr.htm should probably be changed to http://www.szlachta.org/ (It's more correct to use the top level URL for all languages) - but the English is not really that bad and there is no reason to move it, since http://www.szlachta.org/ is already listed in two categories:
http://dmoz.org/World/Polska/Społeczeństwo/Organizacje/Stowarzyszenia/
http://dmoz.org/World/Polska/Nauka_i_edukacja/Historia/Organizacje/
http://www.szlachta.org/2organpr.htm should probably be changed to http://www.szlachta.org/ (It's more correct to use the top level URL for all languages) - but the English is not really that bad and there is no reason to move it, since http://www.szlachta.org/ is already listed in two categories:
http://dmoz.org/World/Polska/Społeczeństwo/Organizacje/Stowarzyszenia/
http://dmoz.org/World/Polska/Nauka_i_edukacja/Historia/Organizacje/
You're comparing apples to oranges. It's not as though an editor looked at both sites and said "I'm just going to add <siteA>." Many of the sites in that category were listed many years ago -- maybe the content of them has changed in the intervening years; maybe listability guidelines changed in the intervening years; maybe the editor made a mistake. My point is that you can't take the presence of siteA in a category where yours isn't as a sign that there is something terrible going on.
jaga, we don't, we just DON'T rank sites. A site is either listable or not. If it's listable, then the editor who lists it, is being helpful. No matter how many other sites haven't been listed yet, and no matter how good they are.
Can you imagine how many sites would get listed if we couldn't ever list any site until we were sure that we'd listed all sites, not only that were better than it already, but that might turn out to be better than it in the next five years?
I'll tell you: none would ever get listed.
So when you tell me that you've found one of the sites that wouldn't have gotten listed under your rule ... you're not really being very helpful. Because for every site you could name, we'd know, without you telling us anything, it would be among the non-listed. Your site, too, would fail, if anyone wasted the time to try to apply your own criterion!
So, drop that criterion. It's of no use whatsoever, even if it could be evaluated in reasonable time, which it can't be.
Can you imagine how many sites would get listed if we couldn't ever list any site until we were sure that we'd listed all sites, not only that were better than it already, but that might turn out to be better than it in the next five years?
I'll tell you: none would ever get listed.
So when you tell me that you've found one of the sites that wouldn't have gotten listed under your rule ... you're not really being very helpful. Because for every site you could name, we'd know, without you telling us anything, it would be among the non-listed. Your site, too, would fail, if anyone wasted the time to try to apply your own criterion!
So, drop that criterion. It's of no use whatsoever, even if it could be evaluated in reasonable time, which it can't be.
gloria
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Jaga, there is no way that we can say this site is more deserving of listing than that site. We check sites and see if they meet the Guidelines and list them if we can as we come across them.
Think of it this way. Say I decide to edit in blue widgets. I go to the category and find 50 sites waiting, and by some miracle they all belong in the category. You would want me to go through all 50 sites and decide which one is the best and list it first, then decide which is second best and list it second. But wait, we're looking for the best sites on the Internet, not just the ones which have been submitted. So I would search on Google, find another 100 sites which belong, and go through all of them to decide the best site and list it first. That's just not goint to happen. There is no way I'm going to be able to go through 50 or 150 sites before I decide which is the best and list it first.
If I have an hour to edit, I might look in the suggested sites first, I might look on Google first, depending on the category. When I find a listable site, I'll list it. And in an hour, depending on the complexity of the sites, I might only look at 4 or 5 sites. OTOH, I might not even look at suggested sites or search Google, I might do a bunch of other housekeeping tasks.
In general, good editors are extremely curious. I bet that nearly every editor who read that statement went to look at the site.