DMOZ project is dead

I am web designer , programmer for over 20 years now. The common excuse for most questions asked on this forum is "volunteer editor hasn't had the opportunity to look at it yet." Most categories has no volunteers so what is this question about ? I applied to be an editor for a very small category several years ago (few months ago one more time) and no answer - I am sorry I have one already - it is - "volunteer editor hasn't had the opportunity to look at it yet.". I am not surprised because this project has gone wrong way and soon become common Internet directory manually edited. There are 1000 of them popping up everyday, some of them good some of them bad. DMOZ data base is overloaded with garbage and dead links, and most of websites are designed by kids or people who has no idea how to web design. Well what would be excuse this time from you guys? "volunteer editor hasn't had the opportunity to look at it yet." This project will be dropped pretty soon by major search engines like google and this is not just prediction. More and more people on the net are criticizing this entire mess created by DMOZ and quality of content - links. Most of my friends (web designers , programmers) stooped submitting anything to Open Directory which become useless for anybody who is trying to find good information on the net. Nobody is using DMOZ to find anything anymore , maybe spammers or people who still think this will change traffic on their website - well not anymore. DMOZ is not the only directory on the net and if I want to find something there are 1000 of other websites to do this. ODP has always been very slow to update listings but this time it is disaster and this is not about 1 guy complaining on this forum. Look at your all threads on this forum , nothing but complains. This is about great project turned in to garbage by "volunteers editors who hasn't had the opportunity to look at it yet." Well ? what can you say to more and more complains ? Soon nothing .... because none will complain about dead directory

As with many things in live you will only see and hear the people who complain. People who are happy (f.i. because we listed their suggested site within a few weeks) won't post here at R-Z. Same for people who understand what DMOZ is about, they don't need to post as they already know what they need to know.

Do you know when we start worrying? When people stop complaining about DMOZ. Then, and only then, will DMOZ be in serious problems.

If I understand you correctly, your complaint is that other people are complaining about the fact that ODP hasn't ever offered services to webmasters.

And I can't disagree. There are a lot of greedy whiners in the world, and listening to them does get old.

I'd personally recommend not listening to them. If you have a clear vision of what you think the world needs from you, then work on that. Then, if someone else thinks something else is important -- they can work on it themselves. Or they can whine, whichever fits their abilities and attitudes. Either way, it's not your problem anymore.

Complaints don't have to be logical, in fact
habitual complainers tend to be among the least logical of creatures. And this is a good example. For instance, those carping webmasters are boasting about "1000's of directories" ready to serve their needs--so they should be so busy that they don't have time to complain about the sites in the internet that DON'T serve their needs.

But ... we both know that hasn't happened yet.

Next time you meet one of those people complaining about the DMOZ service, give him your list of a thousand other directories. He'll thank you for it -- unless he's ungrateful and rude as well as illogical....which does happen.

It's funny -- I was looking at an old thread, from about 5 years ago, on one of the more popular SEO forums the other day in which people were prophesizing the death of the ODP "any day now" (much as they had been doing since the directory started).

Let me guess. That once so popular SEO forum is now not so popular anymore and one could describe it as death.

Oh, no. It's still a popular forum. And people are still happily predicting the demise of the ODP there.

In the end ofcourse they might be right. Just repeat such a statement long enough and one day, maybe after 100 years, it will become true.
Ofcourse this is true for all websites and all people. One day we will die.

:secret: I hereby predict the death of all forums.
:secret: And I also predict the death of Google, Microsoft and even the Internet.
Now ofcourse I could start spreading this news and depand that everybody stops using these resources as it is useless, why use something that is dying. Heck why would I do anything at all, afterall there is only one thing certain in live and that is death. I am dying. The good news (or bad, depening on your point of view) : it probably will take many years before this will happen.

pvgool said:

As with many things in live you will only see and hear the people who complain. People who are happy (f.i. because we listed their suggested site within a few weeks) won't post here at R-Z. Same for people who understand what DMOZ is about, they don't need to post as they already know what they need to know.

Do you know when we start worrying? When people stop complaining about DMOZ. Then, and only then, will DMOZ be in serious problems.

Click to expand...

Actually those of us who have never posted here (my first post) haven't done it for the fact that we're "happy", it's more like we feel "what's the point?"

I remember at least 4 years ago following the guidelines and submitting our website. Still no listing. Finally around 2 years ago my wife decided to try and become an editor. Followed the steps to the "T" (Trust me, she had a lawyer even read through it all after hearing how hard it was), nope, didn't happen. Our website is very popular, very large, unbiased, and very well ran with high morals. In fact, we only recently started putting a couple of sponsors to try and pay for the server costs I've been scraping by each month working a separate job for years to pay for because I didn't want any company influence on the site.

You may think we've been lost in the system, or are an exception, but you would be incorrect. Being in Austin, I couldn't help but go to S by SW. Met up with tons of great administrators of which not a single one had a good thing to say about getting listed on DMOZ, even those who had hookups with ways to get in.

All I see on these forums is people wanting help, some maybe not worth the time as they just want a free pass, others who have been trying for a long time to get listed. When they complain it's the same thing "Refer to the guidelines about this and that" is the response they get. I especially love the posts that pretend as if DMOZ is only for those people who care about their competitors and aren't in it just for themselves and their website. I don't know what these people are smoking that think the DMOZ listings are all highly morally run sites and companies, but they need to put it down. While DMOZ may catch the most obvious of spam and scam sites, from my experience too many honest and moral sites and people get caught in the system.

I would love to hear of one example, just one, of a happy person who as you said was listed within a couple weeks in the category we submitted for years ago. If there are any, you name the price you want to bet that they have a hookup by either paying someone or knowing someone who got them in.

I can understand not giving the editors extra work, giving them time, not bugging them. I've never been a pest to this point, but 4+ years for a site that nobody I've ever talked to can see any reason to not be listed? Come on! If you tell me each editor has a billion sites and it will take years, then it sounds like the system needs fixed... especially considering all the people I've met who brag that they have a hookup who gets them in with no questions asked.

So, why do I post now? I guess I'm foolishly showing an ounce of hope still and I don't know what else I can do. I can nearly speak all the policies from memory backwards at this point.

I don't see why other sites would continue to use the DMOZ directory if this is how they're run, even if it's the truth that the listing for some categories takes 5-6 years in the que, why would Google want to use a program so far behind?

There's no secret way to get a web site into the directory, and there's no secret reason why a site may not have been listed yet. The most common reason that a site hasn't been added into the directory is because no editor is interested enough in the subject matter to edit in that category.

I really don't think people understand, or believe us when we tell them how this thing works. Editors are not sitting around waiting for people to suggest sites. Editors join the ODP because they have an interest in a specific topic. People join for numerous reasons. Someone might have an interest in Scottish Folk Dancing; someone might be interested in Java programming; someone else is interested in Native American Art. And we'll be the first to say that we also get people joining the project who are just trying to get in so that they can attempt to scam the "system" and get their own crappy web sites listed (those people really don't last very long if they do manage to slip by the rigorous controls we have).

Once someone joins, they go out and find web sites to add to that category that they joined to edit. They also might take a look through the pile of sites that have been suggested by the public via the Suggest a URL function. Once they've done all that and they can't find any more sites that might fit the category, they usually look for something else that interests them and they go and apply to edit a new category. It doesn't mean that they stop editing the category that they joined to edit, but they might, it just means they have an interest somewhere else and they want to help build out another category. If you looked at the diverse categories that most editors have worked in over the years I think you would think that we're all a bit schizophrenic - many of us have edited in some pretty bizarre categories.

That being said, you're a person for example with a web site that maybe talks about schizophrenia and you want to get it into the directory. Great. So you submit your site to one of the categories where that site best fits. You right a guideline compliant title and description and you hit the submit button. Excellent! You've done your part in helping us build the directory. The only problem now is that no editor is really interested in that subject matter, so no editor is editing that category. This means the web sites that have been submitted there are going to sit in the unreviewed pile waiting for someone with enough interest in that subject to come along and edit that category. If someone does come along, they're probably going to immediately spot that great title and description that you wrote and they're going to rush off and take a look at that site to see if it's a good candidate for the category, they're most likely going to add it. Wonderful! The directory now has another great site, and as a by-product of that, the site owner might be happy to see their site listed in the directory.

So you see the big issue here? Do the math. We have almost 600,000 categories that need to be edited. I don't know how many active editors that we have, but let's say 5000. What do you think the odds are that one of those 5000 editors is going to be interested in the category that you have submitted your site? Probably pretty small. Unless an editor's interests dovetail with yours, no one is going to see that site that you suggested. I'm the listed editor of http://dmoz.org/Regional/Polar_Regions/ - I bet you'd find that one pretty boring wouldn't you? And I imagine that you probably don't have any web sites to suggest there to help me build it out

Now I know that the DMOZ detractors are going to say that I'm making it sound like we don't have enough editors, and that I'm going to drag out the old "we're all volunteers, blah, blah, blah" line, but that's not what I'm saying. We could always use more volunteers, and as I've shown in numerous forums we actually do take in a lot of new volunteers on an hourly, daily, monthly basis - sometimes upwards of 500 new editors or more in a month. We're not lacking editors, we're just lacking editors who have an interest in the subjects that maybe you have an interest in.

I know that from the perspective of the web owner, and SEO communities the ODP is looked at as one more directory to get your site listed in. You want to get it into Yahoo, MSN, ODP (or DMOZ as many people call it), etc. People become obsessed about this. But from an editors perspective, and I know this sounds naive, most of us honestly just want to contribute to the areas where we have an interest to help build a comprehensive directory. Many non-editors don't realize that the ODP is truly a Project for us. We're not trying to add all of the web sites in the world by a specific deadline. We're not trying to list every web site out there. We just want to add web sites in the areas where we have an interest. And if that doesn't coincide with the areas where you have an interest, that's not a problem for us, that's just the way that the project works - and it's been working pretty well now for almost 10 years

Finally around 2 years ago my wife decided to try and become an editor. Followed the steps to the "T" (Trust me, she had a lawyer even read through it all after hearing how hard it was), nope, didn't happen.

Click to expand...

What on earth could a lawyer determine by reviewing her application? Unless he/she is an experienced editor, the lawyer can't necessarily determine whether the category is too large or the sites appropriate for the applied-for category or even listable at all, for example. I presume your wife got email feedback about her applications. Those emails would have explained why the applications were being rejected. If an applicant picks a good-sized category, fills in the application properly (including picking sites that actually belong in the category and aren't already listed), and isn't self-interested in their intent to be an editor, then they stand a very good chance of being accepted.

I've never been a pest to this point, but 4+ years for a site that nobody I've ever talked to can see any reason to not be listed?

Click to expand...

I don't know your site and I don't want to, since we don't offer individual site reviews here, but the usual explanation for why a specific listable site hasn't been listed yet is simply that no one has gotten around to reviewing it. I know that each site owner feels that their topic is an important topic but if no editor chooses to edit that topic, then it waits until someone does. It's the nature of the volunteer system that drives the directory.

Being in Austin, I couldn't help but go to S by SW. Met up with tons of great administrators of which not a single one had a good thing to say about getting listed on DMOZ, even those who had hookups with ways to get in.

Click to expand...

Come on! If you tell me each editor has a billion sites and it will take years, then it sounds like the system needs fixed... especially considering all the people I've met who brag that they have a hookup who gets them in with no questions asked.

Click to expand...

Anyone taking advantage of corrupt editors would likely tar the entire directory with the same brush. But keep in mind that they are a part of the very thing they complain about. If you yourself know of specific instances of editor abuse, report it using our public abuse system. If you know of specific abuse but choose not to be a part of its eradication, then you are a part of the problem. (That's a general "you", by the way.)

I don't see why other sites would continue to use the DMOZ directory if this is how they're run, even if it's the truth that the listing for some categories takes 5-6 years in the que, why would Google want to use a program so far behin

Click to expand...

You'd have to ask Google. I presume that the overall quality of what's in the directory is sufficient for them to make use of the data. Should they ever deem it not useful, I'm sure they will stop using it.

>especially considering all the people I've met who brag that they have a hookup who gets them in with no questions asked.

I sympathize. I hate being in a roomful of liars and marketing types. Last time it happened, I didn't feel clean for weeks.

motsa said:

What on earth could a lawyer determine by reviewing her application?

Click to expand...

The lawyer I talk about is also a published author who read through the policies to make sure they were being interpreted correctly as well as the application was in her opinion done correctly (she's my mother in law).

PM me and I'll gladly send you a name, list of books with links to them for sale on Amazon.com and her email and phone number if that's required. Sorry to act in such a way but from the other response it appears some may feel as though I'm full of it.

hutcheson said:

I sympathize. I hate being in a roomful of liars and marketing types. Last time it happened, I didn't feel clean for weeks.

Click to expand...

Please tell me you're kidding because I assure you THEY weren't. While I don't know the mods that are helping these guys, I know off the top of my head the sites and owners that clearly have a hookup and laugh about it. You can go on and believe all the sites out there that talk about DMOZ being corrupt are disgruntled people if you want.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Honestly I loved the idea of the human edited directory years ago when I found out about it even before I had a site to submit. I remember the mid 90s I think it was, when you tried to use a search engine (Yahoo, Excite) and no matter what you typed in, the first 4 pages of results were porn sites. I was very happy to see what DMOZ was doing.

I can totally understand the task at hand here and the manpower it requires, but there's got to be a fix. While you see it as a project rather than a service for websites who want another good link, you guys have created an important resource and should feel obligated to be fair and balanced. The old websites that got "grandfathered" into categories that have very poor moderator to submission ratios are getting a major advantage in the ability of people being able to find their website.

I'm not a greedy person, I'm very level headed and would love to help out. I've applied and my wife applied 5 times to different categories she had an interest and knowledge in. One of them had only 2 listings and no moderator. She followed all the policies and had 10 quality sites to put in there that she had no ties at all to. She finally gave up about a year ago.

The informational website I started and own has representatives from various companies that are considered competitors of each other, but still come to answer questions and help out their customers. They wouldn't be there if the site was viewed as biased at all. I spend a lot of time keeping the information real by sniffing out the few companies trying to slip in and throw plugs. I have no clue why my website that's known throughout the world and is the largest of its type still be sitting here after over 4 years trying to get listed in the computers category. You may say I'm in it for myself, but I say I'm in it for the the people who could use the over 2 million posts on our forum of information. I want them to find our information. I don't block other sites like ours from being mentioned, I don't want to crush them, I simply want the info out there and to be a part of DMOZ (I would gladly be a mod).

I don't even try to make money off the site, although I would like for it to support itself as it's getting expensive. In my work, I help others with their sites and I've had no problem getting their sites listed on DMOZ that are in other categories having nothing to do with my site.

If I sound like I'm just crying like a baby, well I guess I am. I spent years waking up at 3 AM just to check the site and go back to bed. Knowing if I didn't I wouldn't sleep as well wondering if a spammer or a troll is causing problems for my members. I cautiously stayed out of politics, religion, and things such as that wanting the members to not feel they were in a place that the admin didn't agree to their beliefs or the site leaned any way. I worked hard creating a site that was informative and moral doing it right. I see DMOZ as a directory that wants to surround itself with sites that do it this way correct? It's like everything I've done has just been blown off for years and I should have just paid money to a corrupt mod to get me listed rather than sit in the que for 4+ years with no word.

I try not to pull strings or jump the line which is why I've waiting this long without saying a word. A friend that works for Google and my sister in law who works in the MSN search dept of Microsoft treat it like a running joke. Every few weeks when I talk to them I often hear "DMOZ add your site yet?" followed by a laugh. It really is funny and sad @ the same time.

You say it's been working pretty well now for almost 10 years and I want to agree. However, after 4+ years of waiting in que with a site that nobody has ever given a reason it should not be added, I don't think everyone would agree the system is working well regardless of the reason.

motsa said:

I presume your wife got email feedback about her applications. Those emails would have explained why the applications were being rejected.

Click to expand...

Actually, most of them came back as a generic response of not approved for one of the following reasons: and then gave a big list that basically covered a lot of ground leaving us with nothing. You can look them up from 2005 and 2006, but I'm guessing you guys are too busy as you are to review my site.

Resegulator said:

I can totally understand the task at hand here and the manpower it requires, but there's got to be a fix

Click to expand...

Did you read my post? A fix for what? Just because we've created a valuable resource, it still doesn't change the nature of what we're doing. We're building a directory, but it's not to help web site owners get better PR.

Resegulator said:

I have no clue why my website that's known throughout the world and is the largest of its type still be sitting here after over 4 years trying to get listed in the computers category.

Click to expand...

Again, did you read my post? The most likely reason that the site has not been listed is that either no editor has edited in that category, for lack of interest, or no editor has decided to go through the pile of suggested sites.

I don't think you really understand what the ODP is all about, and I'm not sure how else to explain it. It's a bit of a perspective thing. Most editors look at it as a huge community project that they enjoy participating in, and not as a listing service for web site owners.

Resegulator said:

Actually, most of them came back as a generic response of not approved for one of the following reasons: and then gave a big list that basically covered a lot of ground leaving us with nothing. You can look them up from 2005 and 2006, but I'm guessing you guys are too busy as you are to review my site.

Click to expand...

Finding out which of those general errors is applicable for you can be seen as part of the proces to become an editor. If you can't do such a relatively easy task being an editor will be difficult as you will have to make much more difficult decisions very often.

Resegulator said:

However, after 4+ years of waiting in que with a site that nobody has ever given a reason it should not be added, I don't think everyone would agree the system is working well regardless of the reason.

Click to expand...

Donaldb explained why it most probably is not listed yet. Noone has had enough interest in the subject of the category or in the pool of suggested sites for that category to review the sites in that pool.

BTW we do not need a reason to not list a site we need a reason to list a site.

pvgool said:

Finding out which of those general errors is applicable for you can be seen as part of the proces to become an editor. If you can't do such a relatively easy task being an editor will be difficult as you will have to make much more difficult decisions very often.

Click to expand...

See now, I was going to let it rest another four years and see what happens, but then you posted.

While I'm trying to respect your opinion on this, you're telling me I can't perform an easy judgment and interpretation task here. I beg to differ, with the blanket denial when we crossed all our Ts and dotted all our Is, we can't help but see it as either someone didn't want to take the time to review the app (to be an editor), or there was for some reason a biased opinion against it.

You're telling me you need a reason to post my site? I'll give you over 2 million reasons from over 100,00 people to post it. Anyone looking at the site would be nuts to think it's not an excellent source of information among other things. I'm sure if I let our members know they'd be here telling you themselves what they think by the thousands. That's not what I'm about, I'll face all the editors, admin, and mods on here who want to cut down what I'm saying as "whoopty doo, guy with a website wants in our directory".

Do I need to give you examples of flat out spam sites or scams that are in the directory to prove what you are saying in regards to this high level of decision making required to be a mod is clearly false? Even if I prove they were spam and scam before they were even added?

donaldb, I DO understand what you stand for here, unfortunately I don't think you understand the power you're giving some sites while the ones going along with the program and waiting get left out while this "project" is in it's, what? 10th year? Did you see all the sites out there that throw up generic sites to get into DMOZ then sell them to other people to redirect to their site for more traffic? There are tons, these people are working your system like nothing else while corrupt mods are working it from a completely different angle. Maybe the mods are not a high % that are screwing you, maybe they are, I don't know, but they exist and nobody is going to deny that. Proving it isn't so easy. Your checks and balances barely exist, if I report I think the category my site should be in is run by biased mods who don't want it there for their own personal reasons, I'll just get exactly what I've been getting in this whole thread:

-there are many reasons a site can be rejected
-mods just probably haven't got to it yet
-you don't understand how we work

Basically "Thank you, come again"

It's real easy to gang up on the guy with a different view on things which brings me to my original post as the first thing I said on this board; the people not posting aren't doing it because they're happy, they're not posting because they see no point. It's like stepping in front of a firing squad with earplugs and side blinders.

Regret posting - no, lost all faith - yes

The only stupid thing I've done here that I can see is thinking there might be someone that actually wanted to take this info in and start picking up those falling through the cracks rather than reply with "the system is what it is, it's our project and we like it".

God forbid someone help me out here, I mean it's only been more than 4 years, if you tried to figure out what happened, more may come asking for help and we wouldn't want that, just read our policies again please.

You're telling me you need a reason to post my site? I'll give you over 2 million reasons from over 100,00 people to post it. Anyone looking at the site would be nuts to think it's not an excellent source of information among other things.

Click to expand...

I think you missed the point here. In general when reviewing a site, we're not looking for reasons to deny it a listing, but looking for things on it which would make it useful for web surfers (our "unique content" test). As has been said already, if your site meets our inclusion criteria, then the fact that it's not yet been listed is down to fact that an editor has not taken an interest in the category you suggested it to and decided to review it.

Since we're all volunteers, we can't force people to look at specific categories. There's an enormous number of public suggestions, and an even bigger number of unsuggested sites that editors can go out and find for themselves. Hence it's certainly not the case that there's a lot of editors sitting on their hand with nothing to do. Rather than just complaining, do you have any suggestions of how we can ensure that more good sites are added to the directory for the benefit of our users (web surfers not webmasters), that's different from what we're doing now?

Do I need to give you examples of flat out spam sites or scams that are in the directory to prove what you are saying in regards to this high level of decision making required to be a mod is clearly false? Even if I prove they were spam and scam before they were even added?

Click to expand...

It's not about need as such, but if you have examples of listed sites that should not be listed, then we would very much like to hear about them. You can submit an update request via the "Update URL" link on the category page, or you can post in the "Report Hijacks, Dead links, etc." thread in the Quality Control Feedback forum.

For inappropriate sites for which you have evidence that they were inappropriate at the time they listed, and have reasons to suspect editorial abuse then please file an abuse report via http://report-abuse.dmoz.org/

We take quality control and abuse issues very seriously, but can't act if we don't know about them.