How will I know when my site is reviewed.

Fantabublast

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The Old Sarge said:
.... ODP editors DO NOT exclude a site simply because it has been suggested a couple of times. That's a myth, pure and simple, so your calls for a change in ODP policy on the topic are pointless.

May seem pointless to you, but I still have the right to express them and expect a reasonable response. In any case, that you feel obliged to respond to a discussion not directly addressed to yourself is proof enough (at least to me) that all I am saying is not un-warranted.

The Old Sarge said:
What you've suggested is already how things function but .........

Talk about u-turns. In one breath what I am suggesting is pointless, and in the very next breath what I have suggested is how things function BUT.... Honestly, you must by that know that if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it most likely is a duck. (I am trying my best to be gentle with you here, but it definitely is a duck, Old Sarge!)
 

Fantabublast

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hutcheson said:
The most important lesson that new editors have to learn (to become good editors) is: all that matters is finding, categorizing, and listing good sites. Anything else (like suggestions, ESPECIALLY suggestions) are only a means to the important goal.

I totally agree, and for good measure, I was only addressing this issue from a webmasters point of view. How editors find the sites to review / categorise, was and is NOT part of my "grimes" .
 

motsa

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If you're going to use names when you quote, you might like to make sure you're using the right name. ;-)

May seem pointless to you, but I still have the right to express them and expect a reasonable response. In any case, that you feel obliged to respond to a discussion not directly addressed to yourself is proof enough (at least to me) that all I am saying is not un-warranted.
Oh, I'm sorry, was this a private discussion? Because it seems to be a public discussion in a public forum on a topic that I know very well. You really should be clear when you post if you only want responses from certain people.

BTW I say they're pointless charges not because I don't think you're entitled to voice your opinion (though technically, as one of the people running this forum, I do have the right to decide what can or cannot be discussed here) but because you're asking for things to change from one way of doing things to another when they are already done the way you suggest.

As for the second quote being a contradiction of the first, you suggested that sites that are resubmitted have their dates changed, thereby putting putting them at the bottom of this queue that you envision. The change of date already happens. The problem is that there is no FIFO queue and so changing the date has virtually no effect on when a site might get reviewed since editors are rarely reviewing sites in a FIFO manner.
 

Fantabublast

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hutcheson said:
That's true. And that's a really really good thing.

How well could restaurant critics work, if the restaurant knew who they were, or when they were coming? The whole point of the exercise is, to get an un-manipulated impression of what visitors normally see.

I am not sure you brought up the best of comparisons for this one, restaurant critics and directory listing, in my mind, are fairly dissimilar.

hutcheson said:
All kinds of abuses, abuses by webmasters and abuses by editors, are made much more difficult because nobody -- not the webmaster, not the other editors, not AOL, NOBODY knows whether / when a site has been, or will be, reviewed by an editor.

But surely, and only if you wish to press on with the restaurant / directory analogy, even failed restaurants get notified of their failure to attain Michelin Stars (or is that for hotels?)

So here comes the suggestion of suggestions, rather than give feedback in the fora regarding rejection, why don't you create a rejected list of sites that have been submited for inclusion.(interstingly, that would be a list I would use to apply access filters on my home PC!)
 

Fantabublast

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motsa said:
If you're going to use names when you quote, you might like to make sure you're using the right name. ;-)

My Bad!

motsa said:
Oh, I'm sorry, was this a private discussion? Because it seems to be a public discussion in a public forum on a topic that I know very well. You really should be clear when you post if you only want responses from certain people.

Now you are being childish, you must be tired.

motsa said:
.... (though technically, as one of the people running this forum, I do have the right to decide what can or cannot be discussed here)

Its getting pathetic, you need to rest.

motsa said:
... The problem is that there is no FIFO queue and so changing the date has virtually no effect on when a site might get reviewed since editors are rarely reviewing sites in a FIFO manner.

Moot point then, don't dwell on it, move on! God, you really are tired!
 

motsa

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God, you really are tired!
I am, actually. Thank you so much for caring. You really are sweet.
So here comes the suggestion of suggestions, rather than give feedback in the fora regarding rejection, why don't you create a rejected list of sites that have been submited for inclusion.(interstingly, that would be a list I would use to apply access filters on my home PC!)
That has actually been suggested several times before (in this forum and elsewhere). It's entirely possible something like that could be implemented at some point in the future, but it's not something being actively considered at the moment. If it ever became a serious possibility, the discussion about how and why it would be implemented would likely be internal, not here in this forum.
 

hutcheson

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create a rejected list of sites that have been submited for inclusion

No reason to limit it to sites that have been suggested!

Something to dream about, certainly. In fact, one time I worked up a proposal to create a Google-search front end that filtered out sites blacklisted by ODP editors.

It would make lots of enemies fast ... mostly, the RIGHT enemies. As far as implementing it: I'm afraid it would be almost as practical as purifying water by removing e.coli cells with a needle.
 

Fantabublast

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hutcheson said:
No reason to limit it to sites that have been suggested!

I dis-agree. All the reason to include ONLY submitted sites for two reasons.
1. The webmasters (at least those that are not looking to trick editors) will know to review their content more strictly against the ODP recommendations and re-submit without falling foul of exclusion. I for one would vouch for such.
2. This would not penalise the sites that have not been submited, but browsed to by the editors (I suppose this would entail validation of site ownership of some sort on submission, but that is a discussion for another day)

hutcheson said:
Something to dream about, certainly. In fact, one time I worked up a proposal to create a Google-search front end that filtered out sites blacklisted by ODP editors.

It would make lots of enemies fast ... mostly, the RIGHT enemies.

You are bound to create LESSER enemies that way than the way you operate at the moment, so I suppose the old saying of Don't knock it till you tried it holds true here.

hutcheson said:
As far as implementing it: I'm afraid it would be almost as practical as purifying water by removing e.coli cells with a needle.

Lets not get carried away into thinking that you are the fountain of innovation. Similar sentiments (as to practicality and implemetation) were expressed to the Wright Brothers ........ and now look, everyone is flying!
 

Fantabublast

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motsa said:
That has actually been suggested several times before (in this forum and elsewhere).
There is life in the old dog yet then! Could you please make a notch on your tab that it has been suggested AGAIN, this time by the ubiquitous FantabuBlast!

motsa said:
If it ever became a serious possibility, the discussion about how and why it would be implemented would likely be internal, not here in this forum.

I do feel left out there, but hey, I will keep my fingers crossed that THE promised day comes to pass.
 

makrhod

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ODP would by now have adopted technology to handle this kind of thing
Well, then it wouldn't be a human-edited directory, would it?

There are other directories which operate as automated listing services, but DMOZ is not one of them, and insisting that it become so is completely pointless.

The persistent "excuse" of editors being mere volunteers
It's not an excuse at all. It's simply a repeated reminder to those who continue to believe that we work for them. We don't.
 

Fantabublast

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makrhod said:
Well, then it wouldn't be a human-edited directory, would it?
There are other directories which operate as automated listing services, but DMOZ is not one of them, and insisting that it become so is completely pointless.
Don't be ridiculous. The technology to publish the list is what I was reffering to, unless of course you want me to believe that all querries to the directory are individually served up by humans too!

makrhod said:
It's not an excuse at all. It's simply a repeated reminder to those who continue to believe that we work for them. We don't.

Come off it and be realistic. Do you really believe that webmasters are ONLY that in life and do not benefit from a properly edited (censored) directory? I know of at least three editors of ODP who are webmasters too! Fair enough, I suppose you'd say to that, after all they are volunteers and they are working for themselves! How pathetic.
 

makrhod

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unless of course you want me to believe that all querries to the directory are individually served up by humans too!
I have absolutely no idea what this means, so I cannot possibly want you to believe it.
I know of at least three editors of ODP who are webmasters too!
Ooooo, I know lots more than that. What do I win?

Seriously though, what does that have to do with anything?
 

Fantabublast

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makrhod said:
Ooooo, I know lots more than that. What do I win?
Seriously though, what does that have to do with anything?

I think you hit it on the head there, YOU won. Seriously.
 

dilbertdan

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I get how aggravating it must be having people demand service for something that are not paying for. I know that in order to maintain a user defined directory that is not based on purchasing links there has to be strict rules for inclusion to maintain integrity of the directory itself. In theory if all the editors adhere to the rules of inclusion, this would be the "fair" way to run a directory to ensure that it content specific and NOT an advertisement based spam refuse.

Over the years I have built legitimate websites for clients, and tried to submit their websites for inclusion into the dmoz directory. I read and re-read all the rules, and compare to the competitors of the specific website who have been included into directory already. Some get included, but certain categories that I have done websites for... nothing gets through.

Is there anything in place to prevent editors from squatting on a category and not allowing anything in... whether it be through malice or non activity on the editors part? I realize editors do not get paid, and it is strictly volunteer based, but inactivity in some categories is counter productive to the integrity of the dmoz spirit.
 

jimnoble

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Editors can't squat on a category to the exclusion of all others. All editors in parent categories can also edit there and some 200 of us can edit anywhere we choose - and we do.
 

hutcheson

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Inactivity is a relative thing. The most active editors are, by web standards, only slightly less inactive than non-editors. An extremely energetic editor might review a million sites a year, which is a tiny fraction of a percent of all the websites online. That means's he'd be "squatting on the directory not letting 99.99% of all websites in."

The more inactive the editor, the larger percent of the web he squats on. People who aren't editors at all squat on 100% of the web. But, from the point of view of a webmaster, whether it's 99.99% or 100% being squatted on, doesn't make much difference.

That point of view, then, isn't very informative. You could equally well say that Mother Teresa squatted while 99.99% of the world starves. But that perspective wouldn't tell you anything at all useful--about either Bill Gates or Mother Teresa.

Certainly, a site can get neglected because every available volunteer is more interested in some of the billions of other sites. But when everyone on earth is neglecting review of the site, it's pointless to single out anyone for blame.
 

wordmaven

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I'm completely new to this, so naturally I have an opinion:


* The Internet connects everything, making the world seem much smaller, but the Net itself is a huge and sprawling enterprise.


* Any group that attempts to organize *everything* on the Internet into a single index has taken on an enormous task.

As the old Barbara Kruger artwork says, "It's a small world, but not if you have to clean it."


* The one thing that the Internet has in great abundance is content. The one thing that it most lacks is human eyes to read, review and categorize that content. Even more rare are objective sets of eyes, attached to minds, attached to fingers. Even Google, with all of its sophisticated indexing methods, cannot duplicate this human input, which is why it relies upon sites like ODP.


* Because there is so much content, each little piece of it clamors for the approval of those so generous or foolish as to give such noisy children attention and a name.


* Because we are in a state of transition from animals who evolved through a process of natural selection to a society that evolves through its symbol systems, there are still those among us who attempt to compete in a Darwinian manner by manipulating the symbol systems that represent our more recent way of evolving. Martin Luther King called this "survival of the slickest." This complicates and aggravates the task of organizing the world's symbolic information. Hey, I like to see things in context.


* Due to all of the above, locating one's self at an informational control point such as this index is like attempting to precisely aim a firehose while fending off both pickpockets and frantic homeowners who would like to have it aimed in their direction.


So much for empathy. It's a tough job, and nobody has to do it, and paying people to do it would compromise objectivity, so that's why we have volunteers.


On the other hand, in matters involving the Web, with great power comes great responsibility. Many people are impacted by the decisions made by ODP's volunteers. The volunteers are a relatively small group that makes a large per-person contribution of time, but their efforts impact upon a much larger group of people who have invested significant effort in producing the content that is what the Web (and the ODP) are really all about.


So, from the other side of the coin, anything that can be *easily* done that would make it more efficient for this very large group to interact with the ODP (without compromising the ODP's mission), should, in an ideal world, be done. In other words, just because there are thousands of annoying people out there who will attempt to abuse every chink in the ODP's armor doesn't mean that there should be *no* positive (albeit one-way) confirmation of status for the hundreds of thousands of basically decent content providers.


I've read the FAQ on this topic at http://www.resource-zone.com/forum/faq.php?faq=status_faq_item#faq_which_cat , and understand the objections to providing status as being:


1. Limited programming resources for providing such a facility

2. Limited server capacity for handling status requests

3. The possibility that giving a submitter a definite answer when a site is rejected, while perhaps more respectful of them as persons, might cause them to re-submit more frequently, thereby consuming ODP resources.


None of the listed objections would seem to pertain to the following suggested status facilities, which involve minimal programming, no ability for submitters to initiate status requests, and a minimum interval (to be chosen by ODP, and enforced automatically) before a re-submission can be attempted after a rejection:


* First, a new suggestion confirmation page to replace the present one, along with a matching, automatically-generated email (redundant, but providing a more permanent record) at the point of submission, containing:


1. Notice that the suggestion was received


2. A paragraph describing the average time that it has taken to process a suggestion in the past (over, say the prior year), as well as

the longest time it has taken, and also the shortest time it has taken


3. Notice that a single email will be sent when the suggested site is either accepted or rejected, that no other message will be sent, and that no appeal will be possible, but that a rejected site may be re-submitted after a certain interval (say, one year), if it has been substantially changed from when it was originally submitted. The emailed notice should come from the same email address from which the status notice will originate, so that users can be instructed to place that address onto the "allowed" list of their respective spam filters.


4. An admonishment not to attempt to re-contact ODP regarding the submission, accompanied by a brief description of the nature of ODP, and why it is necessary to limit such interactions.



The above would give submitters a general idea of what to expect, which, given the necessary lack of interaction between ODP and submitters during the significant interval between submission and an ODP decision, should help people to remain calm during that time.



My second suggestion would be:


* Automatic generation of a standard email triggered by a reviewer's decision, whenever it occurs, indicating:


1. Whether the suggestion has been approved or refused


2. A statement that it is ODP's policy not to discuss the specific reasons for approval or refusal, because of the danger that this could result in inappropriate or temporary changes intended only to garner ODP approval


3. The minimum time that must elapse before a substantially-changed site may be re-submitted


4. An admonishment not to attempt to re-contact ODP regarding the submission, accompanied by a brief description of the nature of ODP, and why it is necessary to limit such interactions.



This world of Web meta-information is just opening up to me, and I try to understand things at a deep level, so I hope the above is not as tedious for you as it is interesting to me. It would be amazing if someone with as little experience as I have in this area could come up with suggestions that haven't already been considered and rejected, but maybe the angels are too afraid to tread here, so I thought I would give it a shot.


Thanks, by the way, to all of the volunteers for their efforts in this apparently much-needed area.
 

pvgool

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wordmaven said:
* Any group that attempts to organize *everything* on the Internet into a single index has taken on an enormous task.
Luckely DMOZ does not attempt to organize everything. We only try to organize those websites that we want to list.

* The one thing that the Internet has in great abundance is content.
Unluckely a large part of the Internet only pretends to have content.

On the other hand, in matters involving the Web, with great power comes great responsibility. Many people are impacted by the decisions made by ODP's volunteers.
The power DMOZ and its editors have is small and mostly exists in the fantasy some people.

2. A paragraph describing the average time that it has taken to process a suggestion in the past (over, say the prior year),
Average time varies between -infinite (the website is already reviewed while it is not suggested yet) to +infinite (the website will be reviewed on an unknown time in the future)



I am only wondering what you would do with the information that a website you suggested (notice that this website does not needs to be yours) is either listed or rejected.
 
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