Is my category editor crooked?

4 years ago I took on the task of getting our site submitted. I carefully followed all the directions, located the category easily as it's where all our competitors are listed. Our site is <url removed> and it's a pretty straightforward e-commerce site in the business of selling glow sticks and flashing LED light-up toys at the wholesale and retail level. 6 months goes by, nothing. I re-submit. A few more months nothing. Again and again I repeat this process for a few years and still.....nothing. I considered the possibility that my category may not have an editor and there's a backlog. Having been involved in SEO and E-commerce in one fashion or another since 1997 I figured I would apply. A few weeks later, I get a nasty email that says no thank you, your services won't be necessary.
So now I have to begin to wonder the legitimacy of the ODP. What other company/entity in the world could survive under this business model? Are category editors looking our for their own profit interests possibly? Where is the quality control when it comes to editor oversight?

DMOZ editors are no less/more dishonest than the people who submit sites or are involved in SEO.

Why do people always assume the most complicated reasons for why their web site hasn't been added to the directory? It's baffling to me

Obviously I have absolutely no idea why your web site has not been listed, but the first thing that I would assume would be that no editor has hit on that category and reviewed the suggestions in the pile there. Editors edit in areas that interest them so if no editor has an interest in that topic it might be a while before someone gets around to editing there. That's the most simple, and plausible explanation. It's generally the main reason why a web site hasn't been added to the directory.

The other thing I would say here is that you didn't actually follow the directions that you agreed to. We ask during the suggestion process that people suggest the site once to the most appropriate category. You've been doing it over and over. Suggesting the the site over and over is not going to get an editor to go and look in the suggested site pool for that category. So suggest it once and go away and forget about it. Move on to promoting your web site in other more productive ways.

Contrary to (misguided) popular belief it's not in the editors job description to go through the unreviewed pile of sites looking for things to add to the directory. The ODP is really not a listing service. The editors can look anywhere for sites to add to the directory. If they choose to use the suggestion box, then great - hopefully they'll find stuff in there that helps them build out the category, but it's not the only resource that editors use to find quality web sites to add. We appreciate it that people want to help us by suggesting web sites for us to add, but that's all it is - helping the editors build a better directory - it's not a service for web site owners.

I can't really comment on your attempt to become an editor, but I would be annoyed if I found out that a meta editor sent out a "nasty" application denial to someone. Are you sure you're reading it right? Was it just our standard denial email that lists the possible reasons why an application might have been denied? I don't think that's nasty, but I guess it's a matter of perception. Remember also that new editor applications are only processed by the meta editors. Category editors do not see editor applications, so never assume that an application was denied, or accepted for that matter, by someone who might have anything to do with that category. Meta editors have the responsibility of processing new editor applications, so are held much more accountable than the front line category editors in that regard. A meta editor would be immediately tossed out on their ass (and some have been) if they were ever implicated in some dastardly deed to benefit their own web site, or those of an associate or someone they know.

As to editor oversight, there is plenty - more than plenty. Some editors would even complain that there's too much. Not much goes on in the directory that isn't noticed by someone who will mention it to the appropriate person to deal with the situation. We also have a very good abuse process for the public to use to notify us if they see something that looks suspicious. Not everything that looks suspicious though, truly is. Just because it might appear that something is wrong, it's not always the case. Just because a web site does not get listed it doesn't mean that the editor is abusive - it might just mean that they haven't edited there for a while. There are always going to be editors who only join for their own self interest, but they usually don't get too far with that. We have some pretty rigorous methods of weeding out the self-serving editors from the ones who are truly there to help build the directory. We've gone over this topic many times in this forum, but people will always assume the worst scenario and make up wild conspiracy theories instead of just assuming the simplest scenario.

Something that I'll just mention here as a bit of a side note is an issue that always makes me shake my head a bit in wonder. I've spoken with reputable SEO types in the past who generally agree that having a web site listed in the ODP is not really important. These are the types of companies that generally advise their clients that content is king and that they first and formost need to have a web site that follows a general set of best practices when it comes to how to promote a web site - I guess they would be classified as the "white-hat" SEOs. Never do they tell their clients that they must, must, must be listed in the ODP or their company will ultimately fail. They generally tell their clients to create the best damn web site that they possibly can with the most unique content and the things that will draw their customers into the web site. Most promoters will tell their customers to focus on the content, and to promote their web sites through normal channels such as advertising. Spend the money on the content. Spend the money on the advertising. Hoping that your company is going to be a success because it gets a good page rank in Google is never going to be a solid marketing plan. I think that a lot of people know this, but they get sucked into this idea of having to get the best page rank, and they have to do that by getting into the ODP. It almost becomes an obsession for some people and they lose sight of what they really need to do to promote their web site properly. Sorry for the tangent - just something that I was thinking about today

So now I have to begin to wonder the legitimacy of the ODP. What other company/entity in the world could survive under this business model? Are category editors looking out for their own profit interests possibly? Where is the quality control when it comes to editor oversight?

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If you suspect an editor of abuse, please use the Abuse Form, we don't tolerate crooked editors any more than we tolerate crooked webmasters and SEOs, .

http://dmoz.org/help/geninfo.html#abuse

How can I report suspected abuse of the directory?

If you suspect that a web site or editor is abusing the ODP, please contact ODP staff with a detailed account of your claim, using the feedback form. To ensure a speedier response, make sure you choose "Abuse Report" for your subject title.

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Unfortunately until the technical problems are resolved, the Abuse Reporting facility is not available. When this and other external scripts are restored, the Announcement will be updated.
When the system is working, genuine, factual abuse reports are reviewed promptly by one or more metas or admins, and are taken very seriously, so please provide as much information as you can. Thank you.

Donald, I assume the worst because after 4 years of monkeying around with this nonsense, it's the only logical conclusion. No company can be this bad on accident. I'm not a retard and am perfectly capable of choosing an appropriate category. The fact that our competitors are listed in that category would mean that even if I was, I still probably got it right. I've read page after page of your excuse making for lousy service. If it's DMOZ's position that their service is only as good as their volunteers, then they need to re-assess that business model because everything I've seen to date has been terrible. So instead of you reading my post and taking a minute to look into our submission and lo-and-behold, possible even including it. You instead went on a 10 minute diatribe about the reasons other than the most obvious choice as to why it hasn't been. I don't like to assume the worst about people Donald, but I can't for the life of me understand how you excuse this pitiful performance, volunteer or not. It's shameful, and you ought to be embarassed to be a part of it.

Garret,

you seem to not have understood much of Donald's post, and in particular

Contrary to (misguided) popular belief it's not in the editors job description to go through the unreviewed pile of sites looking for things to add to the directory. The ODP is really not a listing service. The editors can look anywhere for sites to add to the directory. If they choose to use the suggestion box, then great - hopefully they'll find stuff in there that helps them build out the category, but it's not the only resource that editors use to find quality web sites to add. We appreciate it that people want to help us by suggesting web sites for us to add, but that's all it is - helping the editors build a better directory - it's not a service for web site owners.

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In your post #6 you comment on the ODP business model. There is no business model. The ODP is not a business, it is a hobby - and the purpose of that hobby is to catalogue and list valuable, unique information by linking to websites that contain valuable, unique information.

Spend the next four years creating and adding new unique information to your website, and you never know, it might just get listed in the ODP at some time during those four years - if it does not, at least you will know your site is as useful to other internet users as you can make it.

wjcampbe said:

Garret,

you seem to not have understood much of Donald's post, and in particular


In your post #6 you comment on the ODP business model. There is no business model. The ODP is not a business, it is a hobby - and the purpose of that hobby is to catalogue and list valuable, unique information by linking to websites that contain valuable, unique information.

Spend the next four years creating and adding new unique information to your website, and you never know, it might just get listed in the ODP at some time during those four years - if it does not, at least you will know your site is as useful to other internet users as you can make it.

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Pretty much the smug response I expected. We own patents to unique products, our customers just sell them, you list their site but not ours because it's not unique enough. Of course you don't know that and are just spewing forth the same excuse making we see from all the other inefective, inattentive, or at worst, dishonest editors on here instead of actually looking at the submission and making a factual determination. Dismissing this organization as a business and making it out to be a club was pretty much dead on accurate. I'll agree with you on that one.

Garret said:

I don't like to assume the worst about people Donald, but I can't for the life of me understand how you excuse this pitiful performance, volunteer or not. It's shameful, and you ought to be embarassed to be a part of it.

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Now Garrett, that was an extremely rude comment, and donaldb did not deserve this tirade from you. I do not understand why you can take what we enjoy doing as a hobby and turn it into a listing service for your own gain, and trash us when we don't do it to your liking. ODP is not, and never will be a listing service. It is our collection of sites that we, as editors feel, represent the best of the internet.

We volunteer our time, yes - for free, to build a directory for our users. We do this because we like what we are doing. Site suggestions are just one of many resources we use to build the directory. To give you an idea of what I have done since I joined in 2004 - in the past 2 1/2 years, I have edited over 32,000 listings and added nearly 10,000 new sites. This does not include the review of the sites that did not have the proper content to make it into the directory. In addition, I removed over 6,000 bad listings. Other then listings, we have upkeep, checking for link rot, changed domain names, redirects, etc. So, I should be embarrassed to be part of ODP? Hardly,,, I am very proud that I am an editor and enjoy the work I do.

I have a deal for you. When you are working on your favorite collection (stamps, butterfies, baseball cards), invite me over so I can tell you that it is shameful that you are doing it, that you are doing it wrong, and that you should be embarrassed. Editors are proud of their collection (the ODP) and provide it free to others to use.

"Before I judge a man, let me first walk a mile in his moccasins."

I see you now have your buddies editing my posts. So let me just say this, act like adults and point out where our submission was made in error. Come forth and show me what was done wrong instead of making generalizations about what is usually done wrong. Instead of dismissing the lax attitude of the precious "volunteers", tell me what should be an appropriate time frame to review a site. If not 4 years, how many? If it's really not their job as you proclaim, whose is it? If it's not anybody's duty to review a site, why have the submission tool? Or at least have it on occasion barring outages measured in months instead of hours. You've said it's not a business, what exactly is it? Who owns the ODP? Is it really a Time-Warner company as some have suggested? Although I find that very hard to believe myself. Where are your search results displayed at? Is it really necessary to be included in the ODP to be listed in AOL search results? Wouldn't you think that would make them jointly liable for this fiasco? Just some food for thought.

gboisseau said:

Now Garrett, that was an extremely rude comment, and donaldb did not deserve this tirade from you. I do not understand why you can take what we enjoy doing as a hobby and turn it into a listing service for your own gain, and trash us when we don't do it to your liking. ODP is not, and never will be a listing service. It is our collection of sites that we, as editors feel, represent the best of the internet.

We volunteer our time, yes - for free, to build a directory for our users. We do this because we like what we are doing. Site suggestions are just one of many resources we use to build the directory. To give you an idea of what I have done since I joined in 2004 - in the past 2 1/2 years, I have edited over 32,000 listings and added nearly 10,000 new sites. This does not include the review of the sites that did not have the proper content to make it into the directory. In addition, I removed over 6,000 bad listings. Other then listings, we have upkeep, checking for link rot, changed domain names, redirects, etc. So, I should be embarrassed to be part of ODP? Hardly,,, I am very proud that I am an editor and enjoy the work I do.

I have a deal for you. When you are working on your favorite collection (stamps, butterfies, baseball cards), invite me over so I can tell you that it is shameful that you are doing it, that you are doing it wrong, and that you should be embarrassed. Editors are proud of their collection (the ODP) and provide it free to others to use.

"Before I judge a man, let me first walk a mile in his moccasins."

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Fair points, but if I were in the hobby of collecting stamps or baseball cards. I can't fathom a way businesses, and by extension, their employees would be harmed by my failure to pursue my hobby in a diligent manner. The hand wringing that goes on here under the guise of being volunteers and hobbyists is amazing. Hospitals have volunteers too, but would a volunteer staring at a patient requesting assistance for 4 years and dismissing them as not their job, and having some other things they'd rather pursue pass muster with you? No it wouldn't, now apply that same logic about how many of us feel about your (not you specifically, I don't know you) efforts.

Garret said:

I see you now have your buddies editing my posts. So let me just say this, act like adults and point out where our submission was made in error. Come forth and show me what was done wrong instead of making generalizations about what is usually done wrong. Instead of dismissing the lax attitude of the precious "volunteers", tell me what should be an appropriate time frame to review a site. If not 4 years, how many? If it's really not their job as you proclaim, whose is it? If it's not anybody's duty to review a site, why have the submission tool? Or at least have it on occasion barring outages measured in months instead of hours. You've said it's not a business, what exactly is it? Who owns the ODP? Is it really a Time-Warner company as some have suggested? Although I find that very hard to believe myself. Where are your search results displayed at? Is it really necessary to be included in the ODP to be listed in AOL search results? Wouldn't you think that would make them jointly liable for this fiasco? Just some food for thought.

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Just because your site is not listed does not mean it was reviewed and rejected. We only list a small portion of any sites we find, either through suggestions from non-editors, or those we find on our own. Where in my post do you even get the idea that we editors are "lax" and that this is a "business"? We are neither lax nor is this a business. To be a business, we would be employees and website owners would be paying for our services. Editors do not collect a paycheck, nor does the ODP charge a listing service fee. It does not matter who owns ODP, our results are available for anyone who wants to use them.

gboisseau said:

Just because your site is not listed does not mean it was reviewed and rejected. We only list a small portion of any sites we find, either through suggestions from non-editors, or those we find on our own. Where in my post do you even get the idea that we editors are "lax" and that this is a "business"? We are neither lax nor is this a business. To be a business, we would be employees and website owners would be paying for our services. Editors do not collect a paycheck, nor does the ODP charge a listing service fee. It does not matter who owns ODP, our results are available for anyone who wants to use them.

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Here's why I think it's a business, and you should too:

Domain ID2914575-LROR
Domain NameMOZ.ORG
Created On:02-Jan-1999 05:00:00 UTC
Last Updated On:03-Jan-2007 01:21:39 UTC
Expiration Date:02-Jan-2008 05:00:00 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:America Online, Inc (R19-LROR)
Status:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:AOL-NC-08565
Registrant Name:Netscape Communications Corporation
Registrant Street1:466 Ellis Street
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Mountain View
Registrant State/Province:
Registrant Postal Code:94043
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.7032653670
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:domains@aol.net
Admin ID:AOL-NS-09704
Admin Name:Netscape Domain Administration
Admin Organization:Netscape Communications Corporation
Admin Street1:466 Ellis Street
Admin Street2:
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Mountain View
Admin State/Province:
Admin Postal Code:94043
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.6509373216

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but Netscape/Aol/TWX is a business. If anything, the whois search gave me some contacts that hopefully will be more responsive than what many of us have gotten so far.

Garret, does 'your' category have an editor?
Since you've been waiting for a long time, you should probably know if there was any recent activity on that category.
Is that list updated, or does it look like a deserted one?
Although there are editors who can edit 6 million sites listed in USA, i doubt they edit the restaurants list in some ghetto, on a regular basis, so your chance is to actually check that list yourself.
If the category is in a really bad shape, you should report that, and hopefully one of the editors will jump in to fix that one.
That does not guarantee that your site will be listed, but it's one thing you could do. It happened to work for me, so I only had to wait for a year
Anyway, since I was on a waiting list for a long time, I understand your frustration.
Good luck

Garret said:

Fair points, but if I were in the hobby of collecting stamps or baseball cards. I can't fathom a way businesses, and by extension, their employees would be harmed by my failure to pursue my hobby in a diligent manner. The hand wringing that goes on here under the guise of being volunteers and hobbyists is amazing. Hospitals have volunteers too, but would a volunteer staring at a patient requesting assistance for 4 years and dismissing them as not their job, and having some other things they'd rather pursue pass muster with you? No it wouldn't, now apply that same logic about how many of us feel about your (not you specifically, I don't know you) efforts.

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No one and no business is being harmed by not being listed in the ODP. It is a myth that ODP increases any sort of page rank. The idea that ODP will magically make your company website's PR go up fuels the spamming of our directory. We have seen one website submitting 100s of suggestions to nearly every subcategory. These need to be removed, by hand. This takes time away from us reviewing and listing quality sites. There are also many other SEO tricks that are used to beat our screening. This takes away from our time of reviewing and listing quality sites. We have companies changing urls, which cause them to need to be re-reviewed and relisted. This takes time away from the editors finding, reviewing, and listing quality sites.

Comparing us to a hospital volunteer is totally baseless. We are not in the "business" to protect lives. We also have a serious lack of volunteers to review the sites being suggested. You are complaining that we are lazy and corrupt, but I have not read anything that suggests you would like to help us. I am amazed that we are insulted because we don't work hard enough, volunteering our time, to get their site listed.

"If You Are Not Part Of The Solution You Are Part Of The Problem"

gboisseau said:

No one and no business is being harmed by not being listed in the ODP. It is a myth that ODP increases any sort of page rank. The idea that ODP will magically make your company website's PR go up fuels the spamming of our directory. We have seen one website submitting 100s of suggestions to nearly every subcategory. These need to be removed, by hand. This takes time away from us reviewing and listing quality sites. There are also many other SEO tricks that are used to beat our screening. This takes away from our time of reviewing and listing quality sites. We have companies changing urls, which cause them to need to be re-reviewed and relisted. This takes time away from the editors finding, reviewing, and listing quality sites.

Comparing us to a hospital volunteer is totally baseless. We are not in the "business" to protect lives. We also have a serious lack of volunteers to review the sites being suggested. You are complaining that we are lazy and corrupt, but I have not read anything that suggests you would like to help us. I am amazed that we are insulted because we don't work hard enough, volunteering our time, to get their site listed.

"If You Are Not Part Of The Solution You Are Part Of The Problem"

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Fair enough, if it's indeed true that DMOZ inclusion has no effect on page rankings at any other site, then I'm probably wasting my time. But I do find it somewhat incredulous after reading page after page of vitriole on this forum that people are all riled up about nothing. I just don't find this whole chummy volunteer argument valid. Not that I'm saying your time isn't indeed being volunteered, but my whois search of dmoz.org did confirm this is indeed a Time Warner Co. and is very much a business, contrary to the arguments put forth in here. Being a Time Warner customer ourselves and spending well over $1000 per month in internet access and digital phone services, I have a strange suspicion our needs will be met there with little resistance and the editors in charge at DMOZ will be shown the error of their ways. This is completely beyond belief that I would even need to make a corporate contact for such a trivial matter. I was never asking for any special consideration, no special treatment, I waited for years before even making a peep. Now doing so has me on the moderated users list. I appreciate your remarks, gboisseau. I don't agree with you at all, but you are genuine about the process and your approach to reviewing sites. My issue is on a policy level, not a personal one any longer.

avh said:

Garret, does 'your' category have an editor?
Since you've been waiting for a long time, you should probably know if there was any recent activity on that category.
Is that list updated, or does it look like a deserted one?
Although there are editors who can edit 6 million sites listed in USA, i doubt they edit the restaurants list in some ghetto, on a regular basis, so your chance is to actually check that list yourself.
If the category is in a really bad shape, you should report that, and hopefully one of the editors will jump in to fix that one.
That does not guarantee that your site will be listed, but it's one thing you could do. It happened to work for me, so I only had to wait for a year
Anyway, since I was on a waiting list for a long time, I understand your frustration.
Good luck

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Thanks AVH. I did consider the possibility of just outright neglect and no intentional harm. But the largest distributor in our industry is listed (we're the second), we're not and our next 2 largest competitors aren't. What seems funny (read that to mean suspicious) is that some mid-level jobber who owns at least 4 different URLS that I know of, has all of his listed. He's only been in business for about a year and a half so maybe he's just way smarter than me when it comes to developing unique and worthwhile content His sites are littered with spelling errors, broken links to match the broken English grammar, stolen pictures, plagiarized content and I could go on all day. But I guess under the terms put forth here it would loosely qualify as unique, if for nothing more than the creative use of the language. Like I said earlier, I like to believe the best in people and if I were new at this I wouldn't be making any judgments. But I've been at this a very long time and all the evidence points to something more than a simple oversight, neglect, or an overwhelmed editor. I've paid my dues, I play by the rules, I act honestly and expect to be treated the same. Time Warner owns this business and we are one of their business partners, we deserve better treatment than we've gotten. Enough is enough.

if it's indeed true that DMOZ inclusion has no effect on page rankings at any other site, then I'm probably wasting my time.

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The effect DMOZ has is exactly the same effect as any other link to your website has.

But I do find it somewhat incredulous after reading page after page of vitriole on this forum that people are all riled up about nothing.

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So do I. I don't understand why they are upset about a service DMOZ does not supply.

I just don't find this whole chummy volunteer argument valid. Not that I'm saying your time isn't indeed being volunteered, but my whois search of dmoz.org did confirm this is indeed a Time Warner Co. and is very much a business, contrary to the arguments put forth in here.

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DMOZ is owned by Netscape which is owned by AOL/Time Warner.
But this still doesn't make it a business. It is a completely non-profit organisation run by volunteers with the help of a few payed AOL employees.

Being a Time Warner customer ourselves and spending well over $1000 per month in internet access and digital phone services, I have a strange suspicion our needs will be met there with little resistance and the editors in charge at DMOZ will be shown the error of their ways. This is completely beyond belief that I would even need to make a corporate contact for such a trivial matter.

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Contacting any of our owners will have totaly no effect on your site being listed or not.

pvgool said:

Contacting any of our owners will have totaly no effect on your site being listed or not.

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AOL is in such poor financial condition Time Warner is ready to break it up and sell it for parts. They regret ever having purchased them. If contacts to AOL by their paying customers, as you suggest, yields no results, then they've earned their fate and it is well deserved. But I'm not an AOL customer, I'm a Time Warner customer and I know they value our business. I'm sure our concerns will be met with a fair response.

Garret said:

What seems funny (read that to mean suspicious) is that some mid-level jobber who owns at least 4 different URLS that I know of, has all of his listed.

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Please report these 4 urls, with the category they are listed in, in Quality Control. Please use thread Report Hijacks, Dead Links, Inappropriate ODP Content, and other issues here ONLY to do so.
Listing 4 related sites all about the same subject is not appropriate.