It seems likely site was rejected, next appropriate action?

After searching and reading far more forum material than my wife thinks was necessary, I've found nothing substantive to guide our decision-making process. Here's our situation:

Logs indicate a DMOZ editor reviewed much of my wife's professional photography site on June 10. Since it's still not listed, I'm led to believe (by posts herein citing daily updates) that it was rejected (or, less-likely, redirected to another category). The site seems appropriate for the category, lacks spam or any other trickery. The only technical possiblility I can imagine is that we have two "parked" domains intended for future use (a stock-photography site and a weddings-only site), but neither of these has been submitted to anyone for any purpose, so I've seen nothing to indicate these would pose a problem.

Obviously, if it has been declined, I'd be very interested to know why, but the many posts I've read indicate that information is only available if an editor with access to the information offers his or her help. Any such help or insight would be greatly appreciated.

There is not a huge amount of what we consider fluff, or self-promoting copy on the site, rather, just enough to accurately describe the business, her experience, and artistic approach to the work. It is a photography site so we believe that the photographs should comprise the heart of the content. She was adamant that the site be elegant and simple, maintaining focus on the images.

We do recognize and appreciate, given the apparent workload, that a volunteer editor reviewed the site within two months of our submission. Our sincere thanks, regardless of the outcome.

In the spirit of not wasting anyone's time (moreso than we already have), I'm requesting some expert advice before we go to the next step, which I expect will probably include re-submission:

- Should I at this point assume we've been rejected? (Many posts indicate
that there is no feedback on either accepatance or rejection).

- If so, is there a chance at all that I might find out why we were rejected?

- Should I just study the submission guidelines more closely, edit the site's
content (best-guessing as to its "shortcomings") and re-submit?

- Could a "parked" domain actually present a problem?

- Any other constructive suggestions?

The URL is www.aerphotography.com and it was submitted to the category:

Business: Arts and Entertainment: Photography: Photographers: Wedding and Events: North America: United States: Florida

Please do not interpret this is as a status request, but a request for advice along the lines of, "I think we've been rejected, we don't know why, and what to do next?"

Thanks in advance for anyone taking these questions seriously.

Regards,

Terrence

Something appearing in your logs means that an editor might have looked at the site, but then again they may have clicked the link accidentally intending to do something else, so didn't actually look at the site. Alternatively the editor might have been intent on finding and deleting sites that have now gone "404", so didn't actually look at the site at all. It would still be in the queue, untouched. The site may have been up for review but the editor may have been called away by "real life". The site may have been deemed better in another category, and moved, or may have been deemed unlistable and hence deleted. If I went to look at the log for your site, and then told you the outcome that would indeed be giving out the "status" and we no longer do that.

Instead I will ask you:
- If I said that it is now listed, what would you do next? Would you carry on developing the site? Would you change the content to some spam-laden content in a bait-and-switch move? Would you stop all development on the site? You obviously wouldn't resubmit it again.
- If I said it had been rejected, what would you do next? Would you carry on developing the site? Would you stop all development on the site? Would you immediately resubmit, or would you develop it some more and then re-submit?
- If I said that no-one had yet looked at it, what would you do next? Would you carry on developing the site? Would you drop this project and go and do something else?

Notice that there is one question that I asked, that is exactly the same question for all three scenarios, and so the only sane thing to do in the light of the fact that we no longer provide submission status is to carry on doing that one.

You can be 99.999% sure that if you submitted a site suggestion, and you received a confirmation screen at the end of the suggestion process then the submission was received. What an entry in your log cannot ever show is what an editor intended to do, nor what they actually did with that suggestion. If the site was listed, then that fact will show up in the public listings within a few days. If a site is listable then in general it will eventually be listed.

I don't think you should make any assumptions. The editor could have decided to make no decision, or could have actually moved the site. (Most sites are submitted to the wrong place, and most people think they submitted to the RIGHT place. Therefore, most people who say they submitted to the right place are wrong....so your confidence in site placement is not going to be contagious to editors.)

But in any case, there's no harm in looking back at the site to see how well it answers the question "who are you and what will you do for money?"

And there's no harm in considering whether your local address could justify a second submittal somewhere in Regional/.../Florida/Localities/... Even if you're wrong about how the exact description of your business conforms to the ODP taxonomy, you're likely to know where you actually live!

aerphotography said:

- Should I at this point assume we've been rejected? (Many posts indicate that there is no feedback on either accepatance or rejection).

- If so, is there a chance at all that I might find out why we were rejected?

- Should I just study the submission guidelines more closely, edit the site's
content (best-guessing as to its "shortcomings") and re-submit?

- Could a "parked" domain actually present a problem?

- Any other constructive suggestions?

Click to expand...

Answer to all 5 questions: No

aerphotography said:

Business: Arts and Entertainment: Photography: Photographers: Wedding and Events: North America: United States: Florida

Click to expand...

Although one suggestion: I almost see nothing business related on the site, I would be very tempted to move the site to http://dmoz.org/Arts/Photography/Photographers/

giz said:

... again they may have clicked the link accidentally intending to do something else, so didn't actually look at the site.

Click to expand...

Well the logs indicated that whomever it was viewed all the images in three or four different gallery areas, including weddings. The sequence appeared purposeful enough, though you're right that there's no way to interpret anything beyond "it was viewed".

giz said:

Instead I will ask you:
- ... Would you change the content to some spam-laden content in a bait-and-switch move?
... etc.

Click to expand...

Irrespective of the outcome of our DMOZ sumbission, we will continue to enhance the site, adding newer and better images to the galleries as they become available through the natural course of her continued photography work, perhaps even adding another gallery or two. That said, the site is already fullfilling what is also its ultimate mission, exhibiting representative samples of her work and providing contact information for anyone who might be interested in hiring her. The content (galleries) will evolve rather than change drastically. We'd be fools! Nearly all of the feedback we've gotten from colleagues and industry pros has been enthusiastic and positive.

There will be no spam. I'm her husband, I designed and maintain the site, and I despise the entire concept of spam. It's digital sewage. I don't have a clue why such a move would be of any benefit to us! There's so much CRAP on the internet already.

She really is a photographer, you know! I understand that DMOZ gets spammed much more than my inbox does (which is plenty), so I can try to appreciate your skepticism, but please also realize that, from my perspective, our web site is so simple, transparent, and obviously true to its stated purpose, that it does takes some effort to understand how it could arouse suspicion.

The only future endeavor that might be misconstrued as "bait and switch" is that someday we hope to have a separate stock photography site dedicated to the sale and/or licensing of her images (this intent is clearly mentioned on the current site). This new site, though different, will still also be devoted solely to her work as a photographer. This is a long way off at the moment. It was a major undertaking for me just to develop this current site. Once the next one is completed, I would assume the correct course would be to submit its URL to a different, appropriate category, invoking another review process.

Thanks for your response.

Great answer!

hutcheson said:

... you're likely to know where you actually live!

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's my favorite answer so far!

I very recently posted in another area of the Resource Zone and received some editors' "blessings" to also submit to our "locale" category, which I did. I remain hopeful that submittal works out.

>> Irrespective of the outcome of our DMOZ sumbission, we will continue to enhance the site, adding newer and better images to the galleries... <<

That is the correct answer, and for that sort of site it sounds like even if the site were not listable right now (and I purposely have not looked at the site so that I speak in general terms) it is one that the ODP might list in the future, perhaps even by being found by an editor, irrespective of it ever being submitted by the owner, the designer, a friend, or an interested bystander...

>> Once the next one is completed, I would assume the correct course would be to submit its URL to a different, appropriate category, invoking another review process. <<

A "related" site would probably NOT qualify for an additional listing. We would prefer that you link all of your content together, making it clear to the visitor that you have presented all that you do, but we care not how many pages, folders, sub-domains, and domains that content is spread over. In fact the further it is spread, the more suspicious the editors get.

business-related

pvgool said:

Although one suggestion: I almost see nothing business related on the site, I would be very tempted to move the site to http://dmoz.org/Arts/Photography/Photographers/

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply, however I'm a bit confused by your interpretation of "business-related". We show many fine examples of a professional photographer's work, and on most pages there is a polite pitch about hiring her. Does the lack of SPAM mean it's not business-related? We're simply trying to be professional and let others do the hard-sell.

I'd have no objection to being categorized in the Arts, she is surely an artist, but I think it's very clear that this is her profession and she is available for compensated work assignments, particularly weddings. We think it's tacky to post package prices for weddings, but that doesn't make her an amateur.

Regards,

Terrence

giz said:

A "related" site would probably NOT qualify for an additional listing. We would prefer that you link all of your content together, making it clear to the visitor that you have presented all that you do, but we care not how many pages, folders, sub-domains, and domains that content is spread over. In fact the further it is spread, the more suspicious the editors get.

Click to expand...

I truly appreciate that insight, something I would not have guessed. I'm not sure how we would go about submitting the changes "linking" two or three related sites given that we have registered more than one unique domain, but I'm sure that's a surmountable problem.

Thanks again.

I'd have no objection to being categorized in the Arts, she is surely an artist, but I think it's very clear that this is her profession and she is available for compensated work assignments, particularly weddings. We think it's tacky to post package prices for weddings, but that doesn't make her an amateur.

Click to expand...

It's apparent to me that it is definitely a business site so I wouldn't worry too much about what pvgool said.

If you have multiple domains, all you really need to do is link them together openly: something like
"weddingphotography.com.fl.us is a service provided by J.Doe, Photographer at jdoe.com" on the footer of the home page of the doorway domain, and on the main domain, something like "jdoe offers wedding photography in the Orlando area, see weddingphotography.com.fl.us for details" -- the wording is an example, of course: so long as the editor can spot the connection in 15 or 20 seconds, we'll just say, "OK, this is part of that" -- and we wouldn't list "weddingphotography.com.fl.us" -- but we WOULD include its contents in the description of jdoe.com.

This is a commercial business services site: a lot of content is good for business, I suspect. A portfolio is good. Descriptions of experience and special interests is good. But all that is really needed is, "Who are you, and what will you do for money?" If the editor can find that quickly, then all that is left is to pick the right category (or categories) and write the description.

I haven't looked at the website, do I don't know your exact specialty. But ... let me throw this out, as an idea that any professional content generator might consider exploiting. Note that many regions have a "maps and views" subcategory (and regions that don't have such a category may well have "maps and views" sites listed at the top level. If you do, say, nature photography -- check out the nearest "maps and views" subcategory. If you look at the sites there and think, "I can build a better picture gallery than the best there is so far ... might be good advertising as well ... "

Build it. If you really think it's better than the best we have otherwise, then ... submit it as a deeplink to the appropriate category -- whether Florida, or the Everglades, or the Keys, or whatever. That's informational content. Now the usual rule is "don't submit deeplinks, so don't go overboard here. But if you are really in the position of creating original informational content, and you go by the rule "better than the best listed" rather than "not quite so bad as the worst listed", and you don't submit deeplinks to "related" categories, then we'll probably appreciate it.

As an example of the last, Everglades/Maps and Views would NOT be related to Key West Businesses, but Key West Maps and Views might be a _little_ too closely related to Key West Businesses, so we'd want to list it just once in Key West regardless of how many kinds of content you put on the site.

Thanks, hutcheson

hutcheson said:

A portfolio is good. Descriptions of experience and special interests is good.

Click to expand...

There is a simple but representative CV on her "Bio" page.

hutcheson said:

-- whether Florida, or the Everglades, or the Keys, or whatever.

Click to expand...

Amazing you would mention the Everglades ... you really didn't see the site? She has amazing Everglades stuff, only a tiny bit of which is on the web site. Some of it will get published, one way or another. I really appreciate this excellent advice and will look into it. Would the "deeplink" submittal be specific to the URL of the page containing the pertinent gallery? (i.e., Our_URL.com/everglades.htm)

From the sounds of your suggestion, she may well be in a position to create the "best so far" in a category or two. But I'll heed your admonition to not go overboard; she hasn't gotten this far by not being overly critical of her own work.

Thank you again!

Thanks, all.

At the risk of sounding patronizing, I really appreciate these responses--more than I'd hoped for.

I'm starting to see (from the glaring contrast between this and some other, less friendly threads) a link between posters who’ve gotten flamed and the fact that many of them argued in escalating fashion, too obviously without having read, understood, or been willing to accept the very answers they had asked for and were given.

Thank you all. We truly appreciate your advice.

Regards,

Terrence

aerphotography said:

Thanks for your reply, however I'm a bit confused by your interpretation of "business-related". We show many fine examples of a professional photographer's work, and on most pages there is a polite pitch about hiring her. Does the lack of SPAM mean it's not business-related? We're simply trying to be professional and let others do the hard-sell.

Click to expand...

motsa said:

It's apparent to me that it is definitely a business site so I wouldn't worry too much about what pvgool said.

Click to expand...

Hmm. Strange. What I can see (using Windows XP SP2 / IE 6) are a lot of very good photographs, no text at all on the pages with photo's. Only text I can find is on the Bio and Contact pages. The first time I did not look at the Contact page (as I only expect information about how to contact somebody on such a page, not about what the business is). From the bio page I wouldn't have thought it was a business, just a very good hobby photographer who also does some wedding photography.

<<comment as a potential customer, not as an editor>>
I like a site without all the marketing hype text but maybe this is a little low. Maybe the balance between portfolio and commercial text has tipped in the wrong direction for a site that wants to attract customers for the company/person. For a commercial site I expect the first page to tell me who this is and what service they provide. And from there links to the portfolio.

Hope I have helped you to understand why I first thought it wasn't a business. Maybe other people (potential customers) will have the same problem. (it only is a problem if you want to present as a commercial company, it certainly isn't a problem if you just want top show the portfolio).

Greetings and succes

I like a site without all the marketing hype text ... Hope I have helped you to understand why I first thought it wasn't a business.

Click to expand...

We do too ... and yes, you have.

Like I said previously, it has exceeded my expectations getting this level of feedback. The only way for us to understand how well our site is communicating (or not) is to hear about it from different viewpoints. Until now, we've heard feedback from business associates and customers who are mostly gushing about the site. There's been little editorial or analytical criticism which is the most useful if we want to continue to improve, which we do.

Thanks!

Update

Experts, moderators, and editors all suggested patience. It worked and we're now listed. It's apparent there was no need to rush anyone anyway: seems we're still in Google's "sandbox!"

Thanks again to all of you for the good advice.

Yes. This was quite a rewarding thread; someone would get to your site as and when they decided that there was room for improvement in the category you suggested to.

No-one could say who that would be, or when it might happen (I have no idea what the other 10 000 editors are doing right now, let alone next week, or month); just that if your site was there in the pile when it happened, and if the site looked like it would enhance the content of the directory, then it would probably be listed.

Thanks for your patience (By the way I have no idea who actually added the site, but it would be recorded in a log file somewhere).

Another update.

The so-called "as-it-happens" Google Alerts just notified me that we got into DMOZ ... about seven months after we actually got listed. Now, I think that's kind of funny. Maybe after another seven months, they'll actually list our site in search results like the other search engines do.

Maybe someday they'll even realize it's in their very own Google Directory, too.

[correction: actually, it's only been five months since we were added]

just notified me that we got into DMOZ ... about seven months after we actually got listed.

I'm confused- what's the difference between the two? It seems you are either in or not in.

I think the point he was making was that Google Alerts is slow, giving him the notice that he'd been listed months after he actually was listed (though he got the number of months wrong if that's the case -- it's only been less than 5 months since his post indicating that he'd been listed though it's been 7 since he suggested the site in the first place).