It's Hard to Defend DMOZ

Man, it's hard to defend you guys!!

http://www.internet-marketing-research.net/forums/ftopic9550.html (Check out the 3rd page of the discussion for the fireworks)

Perhaps a change in your public relation policy is required to effetively address all this Bad DMOZism. Or am I still young and missing the point of silence actually being the professional approach?

*scratching my head* I went and had a look at that thread, but I'm having trouble seeing how ODP editors are related. It looks like you ran into some rude forum users who insulted you for having a different opinion than they. That happens to me sometimes too. I'd advise you to not take internet flamers too seriously. It's bad for your blood pressure. (-:

From time to time we give the old college try at explaining to complaining webmasters that submitting their sites to us does not make us their customers nor entitle them to free service from us. Our customers are, and will remain, those who use our directory and our data. No amount of ranting and raving from disgruntled submitters will change this. However, since this is not what any SEO in his right mind wants to hear, I can count on one hand the number who have actually accepted that and moved on to "Okay, so what can I do to make processing my submission something that would benefit the ODP's editors and userbase so that they'll do it faster." Most get hung up on "What do you MEAN you don't have to serve me, you peon!" It's too bad, really, but since you're not even affiliated with the ODP at all, I don't see any reason for you to bash your head on the wall about it. I'm sure your blood pressure is lower than theirs and your site acceptance rate is probably higher. Smile and find more constructive online communities. (-:

It's interesting how much really negative vitriol gets spewed at the directory on a daily basis. Much of it seems to be based on someone's idea of what the directory should be, not what it is. The directory is imperfect, but it is also the largest and fastest growing human edited directory of websites there is. There is an open invitation to join, and if they let me in, they can't be that selective.

flicker said:

*scratching my head* I went and had a look at that thread, but I'm having trouble seeing how ODP editors are related. It looks like you ran into some rude forum users who insulted you for having a different opinion than they. That happens to me sometimes too. I'd advise you to not take internet flamers too seriously. It's bad for your blood pressure. (-:

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Point Taken! ... who wants to die young ... It was just one of those days when stupidity decides to give you a try ... :-D

flicker said:

Our customers are, and will remain, those who use our directory and our data.

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This is something I wasn't really aware of, perhaps because of the mushrooming breeds of directory that cater to webmasters. Will keep that in mind.

Oh, by the way, my intentions in starting this topic was to really get a perspective on your policy.

When someone makes false accusations, it's often not allowed - because of editor confidentiality - for editors to fully "set the record straight." This means that spiteful or incorrect accusations not only can't be countered with the truth (at times), but the conclusion is sometimes reached that the ODP must be in the wrong because nobody thoroughly or convincingly corrected the misinformation. Our hands are tied -- we look bad whether or not the accusations are true. I assure you that most are way off the mark, either from the accuser not having all the facts or from a deliberate attempt to twist some details into something they're not.

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What I was asking is, if you are being attacked and defamed, is it wise to keep quite and do nothing, as it affects your 'brand' ? Or is the soft approach (or sometimes blank silence) really the professional approach?

That thread keeps calling the ODP a directory for webmasters. This isn't true at all.

Also, we don't reject sites because of bad descriptions. If we did this, then we would never publish any public submitted sites!

We list sites based on their content and whether they add value to the category or not. Sometimes, it takes a long time for a site to be reviewed because editors get fed up. Why should they go through piles of unreviewed deleting lots of spam, when they could be searching for quality sites to add themselves on Google?

As a KEditall/KCatmv, I help blacklist spam URLs, but this is tiresome. This is perhaps one of the reasons why I don't have much to do with Business/ or Shopping/. I enjoy editing in Games/ and Kids_and_Teens/ - while I see lots of terrible submissions in both trees, I rarely see mirrors, affiliate URLs, blah blah blah.

It's ironic really that webmasters shoot abuse at us. It's their fault the submission process is longer. If they didn't make mirrors and such perhaps their sites would get reviewed faster.

>Or is the soft approach (or sometimes blank silence) really the professional approach?

I don't know about _professional_ per se, but if we really took the time to run around replying to every thread a disgruntled ex-editor, angry spammer, or frustrated submitter started about us, we'd never get any editing done. (-: And for privacy reasons, we're especially obligated to avoid denouncing the wicked actions of specific ex-editors (which I get the impression the moderator of that board is) that led to their dismissal. That really _is_ the professional thing to do, I'm afraid. It's that way at any workplace I've been at--fired people always whine they were dismissed for no reason on earth, and the boss is prevented by ethics from announcing to the entire company that they were truly fired for repeated safety violations, embezzling money, and drinking on the job. All I can tell you is that removing editors is something that is only done over _serious_ violations, and that ex-editors who claim they were removed for merely disagreeing with a meta are lying. I've disagreed with metas myself, and it seems like every other editor I know has too. The worst that ever happens is they say something rude in response. No one is removed over it. What a silly idea. (-:

Sometimes I think being even quieter would be better, honestly. I mean, you never see Google going around repeating "Guys, you don't have a right to a Google listing. We list sites for our searchers' benefit, not yours. We don't actually owe you and your 571 mirrors anything" in all the thousands of threads started to whine about how awful, unfair, and on the verge of death Google is. But I wind up trying to explain things on a frequent basis anyway. Just human nature, I guess. I'm not sure it's doing the directory any good, but I suppose there must have been a *few* wise SEO types who listened to what I had to say and started doing things more likely to be mutually beneficial to both of us. *rueful grin*

Thanks. Most of what you said made sense ...

Well this being my first post on this forum I guess this is as good a spot as any. For my 2 cents on this subject. I think one of the main problems that most webmasters have is that a year after submitting a site and it isnt listed ..they want to complain. Well I personally know I submitted my own site about 8 or 9 months ago and it isnt listed yet.

So knowing what I personally feel is true there is a shortage of editors and one person can only get so much done. Instead of adding to the problem of just whining I decided to apply for an editor position. If most webmasters would take this approach I believe a lot more quality sites would get listed and be listed faster.

Most webmasters handle a specific type of website for the most part. So who should know more about that subject then that webmaster whom I am sure see's those types of websites daily. So to conclude this, webmasters instead of being part of the problem help become the solution to get some of the issues you have with ODP resolved... apply to become an editor. IMHO

Yes, it would be great if more webmasters applied to become editors, as long as they were fair, followed the guidelines, and didn't abuse the system.

Well there will always be those that will try to abuse the system but instead of those that would be fair complaining they should apply to become editors.

I can honestly say I do not exspect my application to be approved simple because I do have a site in that category and because of past abuse I feel you may be guilty before proven innocent..but I decided to try and see if what I could offer would help solve some of the issues right now with ODP.

Edit by Janeth

Atlanta Realtor, go ahead and try to become an editor. Be up front about any "abuses" you feel you have done. People make mistakes. I'd bet the problem with you becoming an editor is one of three things or maybe a combination.
First, you may have applied for a category that was too big, busy, or just not suitable for new editors. Especially Realtor categories. I doubt that anyone would ever be started in one of those. They are some of the most difficult to edit. Trust me on that. So are many shopping and computer cats.
Second, you may have not understood the guidelines enough to write proper titles and descriptions. It is worth reading the guidelines carefully.
Third, applications need to be totally upfront with regards to websites you are affiliated with and such that even remotely relate to the category or directory tree you are applying in.
I'm sure that you can eventually make it. You aren't guilty until proven innocent. Editing just may not be your thing and that is fine. Not everybody likes it. Ask yourself if you would like to edit even if it is in a category that has nothing to do with your business. that will give you an indication of whether you really want to edit or not. Don't take anything personally and be open to what editors are saying and be patient.

I was upfront about my website in my application. I feel because I know that category so well it would be the best for me to edit. Since I have been involved with that industry for so long and have a site ranked high for almost all my key phrases you can imagine I have looked at a lot of real estate websites in my life.

Because real estate is my area of experience this is why I applied. Just like I mentioned if webmasters that handle a certain type of website should apply to become editors since they see those type of sites all day. Hench the reason I applied for real estate. Without sounding like I am full of myself noone knows more about real estate websites then me. I see the spam sites I see the sites that were thrown together with nothing but a word document. I see cloaking sites and so on all the time.

As an example most real estate websites are poor now a days. They are full of spam, cloaking, doorway pages and there content has very little to do with the subject matter. It is there for the sake of keyword spam and offers very little benefit to the consumer. IMHO

My real purpose for wanting to get my own site into ODP is for traffic. I have great rankings and I am number 1 in google for almost all my key phrases and if not number 1 on the first page or top 5. I really wanted to become an editor because as I said before instead of complaining about the process offer to help.

>My real purpose for wanting to get my own site into ODP is for traffic.

But ... every competitor you'd be adding to the directory would cut into your traffic.

We have some real estate agents who are good editors, but you really have to be willing to help the #7 site move up to #6, even if you were the #6, if that is the difference an ODP listing would make.

Without sounding like I am full of myself noone knows more about real estate websites then me. I see the spam sites I see the sites that were thrown together with nothing but a word document. I see cloaking sites and so on all the time.

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We don't need someone who knows more about real estate websites than anyone else. We need someone who wants to and is able to edit fairly and according to our guidelines in order to further our goal of building a comprehensive directory.

My real purpose for wanting to get my own site into ODP is for traffic.

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That's not a good purpose.

motsa said:

We don't need someone who knows more about real estate websites than anyone else. We need someone who wants to and is able to edit fairly and according to our guidelines in order to further our goal of building a comprehensive directory.


That's not a good purpose.

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I would have to disagree with you. In order to edit fairly you need to have an understanding of the industry you are editing for. ODP guidelines can not cover every industry out there. So therefore you must use a knowledge you have of a industry in order to be able to edit that category. IMHO

One purpose of ODP is to offer listings that are of benefit to the consumer. I dont know how many of you have edited for real estate..but if you have I am sure you see all the junk I do. The real estate website industry has become for the most part nothing but spam and black hat tactics.

There was a city that I wont name..but with in that city there was a company that offered websites to real estate agents and charged anywhere from 5k to 12k per month. Now this company had 5 of the top 10 listings for my city real estate in google. Everyone of these sites were listed in ODP. Well 7 weeks ago google banned those sites for cloaking. Now you have a lot of realtors who just paid this money to the company and now have nothing to show for it...but ODP saw fit to add these websites to the directory.

Now I am sure that there are A LOT of editors in ODP that have a lot more knowledge about coding and design then I do but within every industry there is always certain things you want to look out for before adding a website to the directory.

My point being just because you see something on the inside doesnt mean that is what the search engines see and if this directory is for the benefit of the consumer why would websites like that get listed? Someone within that industry would know that those are the types of tactics that take place and would better serve the public by editing that category.

As far as someone who is able to edit fairly..WELL that is always a risk. There are a lot of people out there that are editors and always show favorites and will abuse the system. You can not protect against that 100% of the time. As far as I go. I wouldnt personally have a problem doing that. I have a very GOOD company seoing my website and with all the fresh content that I add all the time that is a benefit to all who visit my site I have no fear of adding a competitor to the directory.

I dont mean to sound terrible but this directory isnt what it use to be as far as the weight given in the search engines any more.( We all know that is the main reason everyone wants in ODP ) As I stated my website is number 1 for most of my key phrases and I am not in this directory. Does it help yes but it doesnt carry the weight it use to. With all the algo changes google and the other SEs have made, this directory becomes less and less important for seoing.

Now as far as consumers go well I can tell you I have had consumers/clients ask me what kind of traffic do you get..where do you rank in the SEs. Is there any other marketing you do on the internet..BUT I have Never had a client/ consumer ask me if I am listed in ODP.

If you look at the SEs you will see a lot of unrelavant results. In my industry tell me what a online newspaper site has to do with real estate. IMHO..when people search for your city real estate they are looking for mostly a realtors website that has information about the city in which they may be looking to buy or sell and what that realtor has to offer them. They are not intending to find a online newspaper website with an Rss feed with a directory listing of Realtors. Me personally as a consumer I want to find that Realtor ranked in the top 10 because I know the work and effort it takes to get there and that is a realtor who is committed and will work very hard for you as a consumer. I do not as a consumer want to see some Rss feed website that has used whatever Ses algo against them to rank so they can collect fee's from real estate agents to get ranked. IMHO most real estate agents listed on those types of directories or advertising sites have very little content to offer consumers from my own research.

My website as an example has index by google over 2400 pages of content. All of it is relavant content that is of benefit to the consumer. No Spam.. No Cloaking.. No Rss feed...No template website with very little content other then a lead capture form. As you may see with my rambling I am very passionate about this industry. I have seen a lot and expect to see a lot more.

QUOTE: But ... every competitor you'd be adding to the directory would cut into your traffic.


Yes they would but I am tired of this industry scamming the public about what they have to offer on there websites. As an example I saw a real estate website ad lastnight on Realtor.com..The ad said it was the number 1 website for that city. Well guess what that site is no where to be found in the serps and its alexa ranking ..which I know isnt a good source but it can give you an idea..was in the 2 million range( the funny thing about that website making that statement is my website is number 1 in that city for most of the major key phrases, so I know this statement to be untrue)

QUOTE:We have some real estate agents who are good editors, but you really have to be willing to help the #7 site move up to #6, even if you were the #6, if that is the difference an ODP listing would make.


As for helping the number 7 move to number 6 . Well that isnt a problem..I know I can be fair. There are some good websites in my market that are not even in ODP and they are not ranked. I personally feel some of those websites are better then most of the top 10. On the other hand there are some websites in ODP that I dont feel should be there.

I can only say I am very vocal about this industry and I dont pull punches. I always try to tell it like it is. Some people like that and others cant handle it. If my personallity doesnt fit then so be it but as I stated in other post. Instead of complaining about the system I thought I could offer to help the system.

But ... every competitor you'd be adding to the directory would cut into your traffic.

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That may be true if there were a fixed number of clicks in the world.

But there aren't -- the bigger the Internet is, the more people it attracts, so the total available clicks go up.

Just as a single restaurant in a corner of town may (that's a may there -- I know there are counter-examples) do lousy business while the dozen clustered in the main square are packed. Adding an extra restaurant in the main square may increase business for them all; while closing down six of them may spell disaster for the rest.

An accessible Internet will attract more Internet users. DMOZ is a way of making many sites more accessible, so it helps grow the entire market. That's a win for everyone.

Cloaking is something the typical human user wouldn't notice. Google notices, and bans. If we noticed something like that (and sometimes we do) the site gets banned by us as well.

Google and ODP, apples and oranges.

kctipton said:

Cloaking is something the typical human user wouldn't notice. Google notices, and bans. If we noticed something like that (and sometimes we do) the site gets banned by us as well.

Google and ODP, apples and oranges.

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Yes they are but as you put it the integrity of the directory is first and foremost. Most real estate websites use some type of tactic like that and if the directory comes first then doesnt it make sense to have someone edit that is familer with that industry and knows what to look for. As you also put it ..it is a catch 22. How can you be certain that this person is going to be fair and honest. As I mentioned in another post I know of several sites right now that are in ODP and was banned from google for cloaking and yes they are real estate websites.

My other point is depending on the editor a category gets also determines the integrity of that category. Some editors are willing to go that extra mile to help and others feel they dont have the time ..at least that is the impression I am getting from reading some of the post on this forum. IMHO