ODP is dying?

blueplume · May 10, 2004

After reading mesages around in these forums, I am certainly NOT optimistic about the future of ODP. Of cause ODP is still one of the most influencial directory in the world of web, and provide a non-commercial based service, I feel this once deadly strength slowing become the most deadly weakness in the very soon future.
You may find so many people trying to submit their sites and wait forever, or so many people's site are deleted without a reason. Because the whole system is based on voluntary editors, there will never be enough rules to regulate. I am not saying there is no guidelines, but let see what would happen in the worst situation. For an editor, the worst case is longer being allowed to review web site but for many site owners, it means lost of business, or getting bankruptcy. I can see many sites owners are not just for fun, many of them are business especially small business. I can't see how many of them can survive to wait for lisiting their sites in 6 month, 1 year or longer. Or even not reviewed at all. Or being deleted without any reason.
Editors determine the site by their own feelings and judgement but the obligation is very little. Or I should say it totally depends on individuals. If the editor does not feel good in 3 months, most likely he may reject more submissions in that period.
I see it is not just bad for the web site owners but bad for ODP as well, it means ODP would not have the most updated information and content for the
web. Many sites are not included in ODP or being serious delated.

Now Google is a public listed company, and they sooner or later have to establish the directory system to make money just like Yahoo. And of course they require people to pay but also have more obligation to get submitted sited being listed. I wonder at that moment should a site owner wait unknow period to wait for submittion in ODP or spend few hundreds dollars to have assurance their sites are listed. Time is money for business and even for the non-businesss site owners, they may want their sites being found early than later.

bobrat · May 10, 2004

Sigh.

So become part of the solution.

Read the guidelines about editing, spend lost of time understanding them, then apply to be an editor. Promise me you will spend at least an hour a day editing.

Then go out and tell all your friends to do the same.

esemji · May 11, 2004

Sir ,

First of all I agree with the view/opinion by Blueplume.

Your suggestion is very good, to inviting interested editor. But the thing is that your system for selecting the editor is very strict, genuine people try to become editor and for many reason from your side the applications are rejecting, and they try again, still they reject, people are hesitant to reapply, I mean you should have some program or course to train the new editor, like let the genuine editor join ODP, and give some help from seniors/masters like you for editing, giving title and in description.
After little help, the new editor can groom under your guidance and can become a good editor. Other thing you monitor the work of new editor and if you feel it unsatisfactory you can terminate him/her as editor.
Please note that I may be wrong.

thanx and rgds
:flower:

esemji :flower:

motsa · May 11, 2004

For an editor, the worst case is longer being allowed to review web site but for many site owners, it means lost of business, or getting bankruptcy. I can see many sites owners are not just for fun, many of them are business especially small business.

If a listing in the ODP is going to make or break a business, then the business is already in trouble. There are so many other ways one can promote one's site/business. Banking your livelihood on the listing of your site in a volunteer-run directory is extremely foolish.

Editors determine the site by their own feelings and judgement but the obligation is very little. Or I should say it totally depends on individuals. If the editor does not feel good in 3 months, most likely he may reject more submissions in that period.

An editor who summarily rejected submissions based on his or her mood at the time probably wouldn't be an editor for very long. A site is either listable or it isn't -- mood doesn't come into play (although mood could have an effect on how long something sits in unreviewed).

Now Google is a public listed company, and they sooner or later have to establish the directory system to make money just like Yahoo.

Why? Why would they "have" to create a paid directory and if they did, why wouldn't they use the ODP as a base to get them started, like dozens of other ODP users? They'd be stupid not to.

And of course they require people to pay but also have more obligation to get submitted sited being listed. I wonder at that moment should a site owner wait unknow period to wait for submittion in ODP or spend few hundreds dollars to have assurance their sites are listed. Time is money for business and even for the non-businesss site owners, they may want their sites being found early than later.

Hey, if you want to pay for a listing in a directory that charges a fee for a quick review, no ODP editor would think about standing in your way. After all, a site getting listed in another directory doesn't mean it can't/won't get listed in the ODP as well. While we are happy to provide the means for you to suggest your site to us, we have never promised that we will review any of those suggestions in a specific period of time -- in fact, we've said more than once that the suggestions are not the be-all and end-all of our existence They're a helpful tool, nothing more.

motsa · May 11, 2004

Your suggestion is very good, to inviting interested editor. But the thing is that your system for selecting the editor is very strict, genuine people try to become editor and for many reason from your side the applications are rejecting, and they try again, still they reject, people are hesitant to reapply, I mean you should have some program or course to train the new editor, like let the genuine editor join ODP, and give some help from seniors/masters like you for editing, giving title and in description.
After little help, the new editor can groom under your guidance and can become a good editor. Other thing you monitor the work of new editor and if you feel it unsatisfactory you can terminate him/her as editor.
Please note that I may be wrong.

esemji, I take it you've been rejected? We offer training and mentoring to new editors but it isn't feasible (or necessarily desireable) for us to lower our acceptance standards simply in the interest of accepting more editors.

dogbows · May 11, 2004

Well Said Motsa!

My new site was uploaded to the internet in late March of this year. And using the most common key phrase for a search in Google will already bring my site up on the second page of the search.

But it has nothing to do with my listing in the ODP. Because I did my homework well, I have been listed in many, many directories, without paying one red cent.

Any Business that takes their Business seriously will NOT place all their eggs in one basket.

glitterball · May 11, 2004

influence

motsa said:
If a listing in the ODP is going to make or break a business, then the business is already in trouble. There are so many other ways one can promote one's site/business. Banking your livelihood on the listing of your site in a volunteer-run directory is extremely foolish.
QUOTE]

True, but the influence of the ODP should not be underestimated.
A listing in the ODP can be very important regarding your position in Google.

Is there anywhere where I can learn about the new editor review process?
I would like to know who decides whether to accept a new editor or not.

nea · May 11, 2004

glitterball said:
motsa said:

If a listing in the ODP is going to make or break a business, then the business is already in trouble. There are so many other ways one can promote one's site/business. Banking your livelihood on the listing of your site in a volunteer-run directory is extremely foolish.
QUOTE]

True, but the influence of the ODP should not be underestimated.
A listing in the ODP can be very important regarding your position in Google.

Click to expand...

That may or may not be true (I honestly don't know) but if so, that's Google's decision, not the ODP's. We won't change our practices and policies based on what any of our data users do once they have collected the data we provide.

Also, an ODP listing certainly won't help an otherwise moribund business. Yesterday I removed some 30 dead listings of computer companies that are no more.

glitterball said:

Is there anywhere where I can learn about the new editor review process?
I would like to know who decides whether to accept a new editor or not.

Click to expand...

That decision rests with the meta editor who reviews an application.

donaldb · May 11, 2004

I don't know why people think that it is so hard to become an editor. This past weekend we accepted 136 new editors. I would say that most of those new editors are average, everyday people.

And as to advice on how to become an editor, we have a whole forum here dedicated to that topic with one of the first threads being titled [thread=1289]FAQ and General Advice[/thread].

As as to the issue of ODP dying, I would imagine that you could probably do a search on Google and find this same subject being discussed as far back as 1999. It's the same old story.

Alucard · May 11, 2004

And on the topic of so many disgruntled people posting to this forum - that is the nature of this forum - you're not going to see everyone who gets a listing coming here to post how happy they are that they got one. So therefore, it's hardly a representative sample of the submitter's ODP experience.

Also, we care about our users. And those are not the site owners, but the people that use the directory. Nearly everyone that posts on this board is a site owner.

esemji · May 11, 2004

ODP is safe

donaldb said:
I don't know why people think that it is so hard to become an editor. This past weekend we accepted 136 new editors. I would say that most of those new editors are average, everyday people.

And as to advice on how to become an editor, we have a whole forum here dedicated to that topic with one of the first threads being titled [thread=1289]FAQ and General Advice[/thread].

As as to the issue of ODP dying, I would imagine that you could probably do a search on Google and find this same subject being discussed as far back as 1999. It's the same old story.

Dear Members
The way Mr. Donald & Bobrat is handling the issues, also polite, soft & logical answers, I am sure ODP is very safe as far as people like them are associated with ODP.
thanx and rgds
esemji

CogNito · May 13, 2004

Bad Experiences as an Editor

I thought I was part of the solution, and built a category from scratch in 1998.

It wasn't so bad in 1998. ODP had a golden rule that said editors should exercise judgement in order to only post sites that will add to rather than detract from your category. If you found such things as multiple pop-ups, search engine hijacking, links to porno, and sites that launched code which would edit your registry, you were supposed to reject them.

WIthin a year or two, a new group of metas and new policies reversed this with rulings that editors had to post sites. Editors who didn't go along with it were ganged up on and railroaded.

The category I built has not had a steady editor there since 2002 when I left. I see many categories have no editors. I see waiting times of several weeks or never for a site to be added.
As a result of having too few editors, there is no expectation of ODP that submitters can rely on, other than it may take forever for a site to be added.

esemji · May 13, 2004

Rejoin

Hi ,
I wish you join ODP again.
rgds
esemji

esemji · May 13, 2004

+ approach

Dear Mr.Bobrat ,
your approach is very positive.
rgds
esemji

Sunanda · May 13, 2004

Blueplume, we're probably not the people to ask if the OPD is dying. The editors here presumably don't think so, or we'd be off building the best human-edited directory somewhere else.

Equally, asking in many of the webmasters' forums will probably get you an unthinking "yes" from many webmasters who wish the OPD a long and painful death for not including their site(s).

One way to get an objective view is to check the growth rate.

One way to do that (there are others, but these figures are harder to manipulate) is to check all the copies of the DMOZ home page over at the wayback machine: http://www.archive.org

donaldb · May 13, 2004

CogNito said:
It wasn't so bad in 1998. ODP had a golden rule that said editors should exercise judgement in order to only post sites that will add to rather than detract from your category. If you found such things as multiple pop-ups, search engine hijacking, links to porno, and sites that launched code which would edit your registry, you were supposed to reject them.

WIthin a year or two, a new group of metas and new policies reversed this with rulings that editors had to post sites. Editors who didn't go along with it were ganged up on and railroaded.

I think that you might have misinterpreted something along the way. I can't imagine anyone telling you to list the types of sites that you describe. You can even see in the Guidelines that these are not the sites that we list.

Alucard · May 13, 2004

All I can say is that if that really was the case (and I wasn't an editor in 1998 so I don't know) then sometime between then and when I joined in 2001, things got changed right back to the policy being to reject those types of sites. That hasn't changed since I have been an editor.

Bookie · May 13, 2004

I just thought I'd add my two cents as a silent majority.

When I became an editor at dmoz, I was around 15. I had tried to become an editor at 13 and was rejected, so I let myself mature a little and tried again. I'm sure anyone who really wants to be an editor can become one with some effort, it just takes dedication.

I edit a catagory that does not decide the future of busineses, nor does it make or break anyone's dreams and aspirations, so I very rarely get any sort of complaint that I'm working to slow. In fact, the problem I usualy come across is having to decide whether or not a very bad site has enough unique content to merit it being published at all.

But I digress.

From my personal experience, the editors at DMOZ are editors because they not only care about their subject matter, but they want to provide a service to the community by making that subject accessable. Sometimes this means a very big backlog of sites, but the alternative would be a very badly organized and presented directory that is of no use to anyone.

The ODP might be suffering some growing pains, but I highly doubt its dying. From my end at least, there are a lot of people who work hard and try their best to provide the best content they can. I just thought it was important to mention this, since this forum naturaly attracts slightly negative feedback.

JaBooters · May 19, 2004

and what does DMOZ do about corruption? We have a site that gained national attention, fantastic reviews in the largest trade periodical and even noted as defining a new site, yet we can never get listed in DMOZ, even after years of trying and following the rules, never submitted more than once in a 6-8 month period. I have never been able to get even a hint at why this is happening. I recently tried on these boards and got far enough to ask and get a follow up question from a moderator (about the catagory applied to, etc), then, as usual, nothing..we'll never hear anything back and the post will go unanswered. As I pointed out before to DMOZ, I'm seriously wondering if a competitor has something to do with this, we have many and I wouldn't put it past many or them. So how does DMOZ, knowing the importance of the service, deal with those that are using it as a weapon against other small business, and, in fact, using DMOZ to CORRUPT the web, causing sites not to be listed that are far more deserving than some sites that *are* listed.

thehelper · May 19, 2004

Unless you have some sort of proof of what you are claiming you are just slandering dmoz.org editors. If you suspect abuse there is a system for the public to report suspected abuse. We take editor abuse very seriously but the fact that you have not been listed is not enough evidence. Have you asked about your submission in the submission status forum? If your question was not answered did you bump your thread? We have tons of status requests and sometimes they get missed.

ODP is dying?

blueplume

Banned

bobrat

Member

esemji

Member

motsa

motsa

dogbows

Member

glitterball

Member

nea

Meta & kMeta

donaldb

Member

Alucard

Member

esemji

Member

CogNito

Member

esemji

Member

esemji

Member

Sunanda

Member

donaldb

Member

Alucard

Member

Bookie

Member

JaBooters

Member

thehelper

Member