ODP Should be DEAD?

vkyip

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Questions:

a) Anything that is not relevant and outdated on the web should be DEAD right?

b) Why is ODP not dead yet ?

c) Time spent by editors, where they choose to spend them are decided by themselves right? Why spend time when some categories are dead for years?

d) Would it not be better if ODP is changed to something like Wiki?
 

windharp

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No directory was ever up to date until now. As long as nobody can show that a different approach than ours would be better, we like the ODP as it is.

You are welcome to start your own directory, with whatever system you think would be good. You can even use ODP data as a starting point if you include the credits. So feel free to show that a different approach would be better.

Apart from that, the same points have been discussed lots of time in this forum. Please see for example this thread or this thread.
 

chaos127

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Don't the assumptions behind (a) and (b) imply that the ODP must be either relevent, or not-outdated, or possibly both? :p

d) Would it not be better if ODP is changed to something like Wiki?
I presume you mean that we shoulda allow people to change any listings without them first having to show that they understand and follow our guidelines and policies, and demonstrate their editing ability starting off in small categories. Can you imagine how much work that woudl create for moderators who would have to go around clearing up the mess left by inexperienced people trying to help -- not to mention the effects of spammers, and others deliberatly inserting inappropriate links.

In effect the ODP is like a wiki in that anyone can contribute. Editors just have to earn the rights to edit each category by demonstrating their committment to the project. Doesn't wikipedia restrict access to certain problematic articles -- it's like that but just with every category restricted (since we know what would happen if it wasn't).
 

vkyip

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Since I have been enlightened by the mods, ok, wiki idea is bad.

Yes, I am implying ODP is not relevant and I totally disagree that it is updated.

I am not looking to piss people off, but my main gripe is that the currrent system may leave some categories not being updated or maintained for years. Obviously I don't have a solution but I'm sure it's out there, and it could only get better. :)

I guess you guys know that already as you get unceassing questions about when my site is gonna get listed all the time. It's tough being an editor, unfortunately even tougher for people who get no feedback, nothing, and their site may not be listed EVER.
 

windharp

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I am not looking to piss people off, but my main gripe is that the currrent system may leave some categories not being updated or maintained for years.
Yes, sure. That's the main disadvantage of making editor work voluntary: People will only do what they find interesting. The benefit on the other hand is that people who like what they are doing ususally do them better. Not necessarily quicker, but better.

The way around that issue would be to employ paid editors. This has been tried lots of times. Basically those type of directories have been the reason that the ODP was started, which IMHO pretty much says all about it. ;-)
 

pvgool

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vkyip said:
I guess you guys know that already as you get unceassing questions about when my site is gonna get listed all the time. It's tough being an editor, unfortunately even tougher for people who get no feedback, nothing, and their site may not be listed EVER.
Yes, and the problem is?
O wait, you think DMOZ is about listing websites that are suggested.
DMOZ is about building a directory and to reach this goal we list websites we find somewhere (this could be in a local newspaper, on a billboard, from suggestions by the public, ....)
 

shadow575

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The model that the ODP uses is working just fine for those participating in building it. When changes are felt needed, those participants actively discuss them to make corrections.

There are nearly 600K categories in the directory with over 4 million listings. The fact that there have been no editors interested in updating the Mountain Biking:FAQ's and Tutorial category since December of 2004 (taken from the "Last Updated" note on the public side) doesn't mean the other 500K categories should be declared dead. Does it mean that there couldn't possibly be more value added there? Of course not, but at the moment editors are more concerned with adding more content and quality to more popular categories, so that is where they concentrate.

Personally I am much happier to see Hurricane Katrina categories being updated with the upcoming hurricane season on its way than seeing updates to the Mtn. Bike Tutorials or the Deception Island categories.
 

hutcheson

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>even tougher for people who get no feedback, nothing, and their site may not be listed EVER.

I don't see this at all. You spend a few minutes volunteering (that is, finding a category and suggesting a site.) That's not tough at all. You don't have to offer any kind of personal information or "bona fides" or pass a test or anything. Nobody cares whether you're a spammer, nobody cares whether you have an ounce of good faith or public spirit. Nobody offered you anything for this, nobody promised you anything, you simply go on with your life as if the ODP had never existed. How could it be easier?

Or, you can go on from there in a different direction: demonstrate your interest in the mission of the project, demonstrate minimal competence, demonstrate your own good faith -- and you're an editor, with the privileges of making changes directly, and all kinds of constructive feedback from your peers.

It's not tough for anyone. The mechanism empowers people so far as it can trust them. If you don't feel it empowers you enough, or if you feel it asks too much in exchange, then you don't participate -- you go somewhere else, like your own website, to do the same thing differently, or to do some other thing that the ODP doesn't empower you to do.

There is no "tough".

The only way it could possibly be tough is if you tried to control the ODP community for your own nefarious purposes. And ... yeah, that be REAL tough, and many conscientious editors work hard to make it tougher.

And ... what are you going to do with feedback anyway? If you're an amateur promoting your own site, you're going to read the rules and only suggest it once, right? If you have any other related sites, you'll link them from your first site, and not suggest them, just like the rules say, right? (We cannot impose any responsibility on you, but -- if you're a spammer, and we don't want to talk to you, and you don't deserve to hear from us.)

But, but ... how about those professional webdesigners or SEOers who suggest lots of sites? Don't they deserve feedback?

No. They. Do. Not.

I'm an amateur, I do what I do as well as I can, and people can accept my help if it's good enough for them. But -- those professionals have a professional duty to understand the ODP rules backward and forward and tell their clients the truth, which is either (1) "I know what I'm doing, and I'll suggest your site if it's listable. This site isn't listable, don't bother. That site is listable, but you never know how long it'll take to get listed: they're volunteers, working on their own priorities, not mine. THAT site probably isn't listable, but I'll submit it anyway if you're into dishonest. The editors may list it, but don't count on in staying listed?" or (2) "I don't understand the ODP: I can take your money but in my ignorance and sloth I have neglected to take any steps to understand the ODP guidelines. I have no clue whether this site is listable, so I am totally at the mercy of volunteers to whom I have always been contemptuous and rude, and who had no sympathy for me and my work to begin with. You can do the research and suggest your site yourself, or you can look for some competent person to do your SEO work. But I am not going to take any steps to acquire the basic professional competence that you probably think you have a right to expect, just because YOU'RE PAYING ME MONEY!"

We have no sympathy, no sympathy at all for people like that, who'll take other people's money but do nothing at all to earn it -- and THEN complain about how EDITORS aren't doing THEIR responsibility!
 

vkyip

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windharp said:
Yes, sure. That's the main disadvantage of making editor work voluntary: People will only do what they find interesting.

Obviously you like your work, which is great. Say editors are required to clear some work, minimum work, itsy bitsy work to keep the status of being an editor, would you not consider that ok? All I am saying is that, the current system is great, but beyond improvement? Maybe it needed to be tweaked a little, and I have no clue as to how.

windharp said:
The way around that issue would be to employ paid editors.

Paid editors are definitively not the answer.
 

vkyip

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pvgool said:
Yes, and the problem is?
O wait, you think DMOZ is about listing websites that are suggested.
DMOZ is about building a directory and to reach this goal we list websites we find somewhere (this could be in a local newspaper, on a billboard, from suggestions by the public, ....)

The problem is that the directory you build is irrelevant. Because some categories are dead for years. Whatever way you choose to build one, information has to be kept current or they are of no use.
 

pvgool

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vkyip said:
Say editors are required to clear some work, minimum work, itsy bitsy work to keep the status of being an editor, would you not consider that ok?
This already is something we have.
"Accounts expire if you do not login within the first month, or, if you do not edit for a consecutive period of four months."
 

hutcheson

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>Say editors are required to clear some work, minimum work, itsy bitsy work to keep the status of being an editor, would you not consider that ok?

No, I would not. I WOULD consider it really really great if commercially-oriented webmasters could be required to jump through any number of flaming hoops before being allowed to publish a web site, much less suggest it to anyone. But ... when it comes down to it, I'm on the ethical side of liberty, not tyranny by irrelevant and inefficient activity-bundling. And that even includes liberty for spammers. I just wish they'd reciprocate -- but what makes a spammer a spammer is a ruthless devotion to self-interest, which sort of precludes any social considerations.

>All I am saying is that, the current system is great, but beyond improvement?

The current system could use improvement. Of course, any conceivable improvement would empower editors to find sites more effectively, make them even more independent from site suggestions, and enable them to more efficiently select sites worth reviewing, and ignore sites that are unlikely to be worth wasting time on (whether those sites were suggested or not.)

So in an ideal world, sites that exhibit no signs of contributing anything to the sum of human knowledge would get painlessly neglected, almost forever, no matter how importunately they were suggested, and no matter how vociferously their beneficiaries complained; while new sites from obviously authoritative sources would get picked up immediately, regardless of whether their owners had ever heard of the ODP. In other words, we'd escape completely from showing any special consideration for "webmasters" and SEO" types, and focus completely on monitoring all of the various kinds of genuine "authority" types for new information posted.

That would be ideal; anything anyone can do to help us go in that direction would be appreciated.
 

shadow575

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vkyip said:
The problem is that the directory you build is irrelevant. Because some categories are dead for years. Whatever way you choose to build one, information has to be kept current or they are of no use.
Because *some* categories go un-updated for years does not make the remaining 500K+ categories irrelevant.
Categories are not dead simply because the listed sites are not new, old sites still offer in most cases very relevant information to the categories they are listed in. Categories would be dead if all the listed sites were found to not be functioning. In which case pointing them out to us would be most helpful, otherwise the automated link checkers will eventually get to them.
 

vkyip

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shadow575 said:
Does it mean that there couldn't possibly be more value added there? Of course not, but at the moment editors are more concerned with adding more content and quality to more popular categories, so that is where they concentrate.

Right on. Couldn't agree more. But there must be a better system, where a webmaster with a relevant site in mountain bike, have a chance to get listed. All I am saying is there had to be a better way. Now there is none, unless someone applied to edit that category, which may or may not be approved.
 

hutcheson

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>Whatever way you choose to build one, information has to be kept current or they are of no use.

I don't know what you mean by "information." If you mean "news", the ODP has moved away from listing individual stories (and a good idea). But many other kinds of legitimate information don't expire like cottage cheese.

Directories favor "stable" sites -- that is, sites that are expected to remain up and authoritative for some time. CONTENT that isn't relevant and authoritative, should be indexed some other way: and there are other indexes around the web which do THAT better than the ODP: classified ads and news are better served by sites like Ebay/Abebooks/etc or BBC/NYT/etc.: in other words, sites that have a track record of authoritatively aggregating timely ephemera.

But if you are generating ephemeral content, it's rank abuse to even suggest them to the ODP.

And if you're interested ONLY in seeing someone ELSE'S ephemera, then sure, the ODP is irrelevant to you, and has always been irrelevant to you. But it's an act of unspeakable arrogance to assume you can impose your own apathy on the universe.
 

vkyip

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hutcheson said:
We have no sympathy, no sympathy at all for people like that, who'll take other people's money but do nothing at all to earn it -- and THEN complain about how EDITORS aren't doing THEIR responsibility!

LOL, being an editor is tough. Just to be clear, I am not complaining about editors. I am complaing that some categories are not relevant and not updated to include relevant information, for an extended period. What you mentioned is correct, no arguments from me.
 

vkyip

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pvgool said:
This already is something we have.
"Accounts expire if you do not login within the first month, or, if you do not edit for a consecutive period of four months."

Login in is work?
 

shadow575

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vkyip said:
Right on. Couldn't agree more. But there must be a better system, where a webmaster with a relevant site in mountain bike, have a chance to get listed. All I am saying is there had to be a better way. Now there is none, unless someone applied to edit that category, which may or may not be approved.
Everyone always knows a better way for their own way of looking at an issue. To my knowledge there is nothing preventing anyone from taking on the creation for a better system (to meet their own needs) that is different from the ODPs. The ODP doesn't compete with anyone tyring to 'do it better for their own reasons', in fact given the proper attribution they are welcome to use dmoz data to get started.

There are always some improvements that can be made in general to any system, including the ODP. Editors are constantly working on ways to improve the ODP system and discussing ideas. Just take a peak at http://projects.dmoz.org/index.cgi and see some of the projects that are being worked on at the moment. There are many more in the planning stages that haven't started to be implemented yet.

The only way any category gets updated (whether it is a new category just created or one that hasn't been updated in 4 years) is by a volunteer editor taking an interest and working on it. That includes a new editor applicant for the category. In order for a new editor application to be accepted all they have to do is show 2-3 (preferrable 3) listable sites relevant to that category and give an indication that they are honest in wanting to help the project and show that they have the ability to learn to be a good editor. Even if they were rejected, nothing is stopping them from taking what the learned from the rejected application and reapplying with a new vision. Many of us didn't make it as editors on the first try-myself included.
 

shadow575

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vkyip said:
Login in is work?
That was meant for new editors. If you are accepted as an editor and fail to login within 1 month of acceptance your new account becomes disabled and you would then have to apply for reinstatement. You would be surprised to know just how often this does happen.

For existing editors, you are required to make at least one actual edit every four months or the same account disabling occurs.
 
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I have a better idea

windharp said:
As long as nobody can show that a different approach than ours would be better, we like the ODP as it is.

I have a better approach for a better directory.

In the submission forms if the site is not relevant then the directory then you can't submit your site. You know when a webmaster submits their site then the site will be compared against a list of words that would be relevant to the category and then if it's right then the sites submited if not then not submited. This will give all the editors more time for submissions that were right.

Also another idea for you is open up a ranking system like my directory where you have 10 high quality guidelines and the most quality will be top ranks and the little less but still high quality and unique will be lower rank. That can ensure the people the top will be the highest.

One more thing for the family friendly categories you could put a website label like SafeSurf, and ICRA, and the adult categories (if you have one) label it adult so the adult categories will be filtered and the regular websites can be searched through Google, and other search engines.

Those are just a few ideas on how to make your directory bigger.
 
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