ODP Should be DEAD?

Smokin78 said:

After reading my post and sitting back for a few minutes I realized that I could have said it better. Spectre is exactly right.

Experts don't always make the best anything. It may help, but not always the only thing you need. I think that a strong intrest in a subject is just as important if not more. Being interested usually drives people to do and learn more because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to.

Sorry if I misled anyone and I hope that this helps to clear it up.

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The subject I have applied for has been a interest/hobby for about 8 years and this interest has led me to run a business in it now for just over two years. I would undoubtedly NOT call myself an expert. To be an expert in this field would take years and years of study. I would describe myself more as an enthusiastic amateur.

Part of the reason that I am interested in being an editor is that I research this area on the net frequently for sites in this category so I am seeing good and bad sites in this genre. Thought it would be good way to pass on any really good sites to other people. Obviously I have the wrong idea.

glengall1 said:

Part of the reason that I am interested in being an editor is that I research this area on the net frequently for sites in this category so I am seeing good and bad sites in this genre. Thought it would be good way to pass on any really good sites to other people. Obviously I have the wrong idea.

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I'm afraid you do. I'm a subject matter expert on some topics, and I've had to look at an "informational" site I'm sure is seriously wrong in some matters in one of those topics. I can't delete it, because accuracy of the information is not part of the requirements.

>I would describe myself more as an enthusiastic amateur.

That's plenty good enough, so far as topical knowledge goes.

bobrat said:

Sometimes people apply to categories they think they are expert on, but fail to be accepted becuase the ignore the DMOZ listing guidelines. They then become very upset becuase they think their expertise is more important.

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Wouldn’t you think that the project could use all the help it can get? If someone is an expert and blows a listing because of technicality why not accept them and show them what they did wrong instead of just rejecting them? If their grammar is terrible I can understand not wanting to waste your time.

I applied for my local area and I was turned away. I am obviously an expert on the town I live in, and my grammar is above 8th grade level (I can not see needing more than that to write a 1 sentence listing) yet I was not accepted as an editor.

Then people say, "well maybe the category you applied to was too small to need someone to edit it." While others say things like, "why not start out by trying to apply to your home town." What do you want us to do? If a person puts in a couple of killer listings for their home town and writes a nice little sentence about it, and you think it is too small, then why not just accept the person and give them a little more responsibility?

Smokin78 said:

I was at a local grocery store the other day and remembered an ad I saw in the paper for a new cookie. I just had to have it. To my surprise, when I walked up and down the cookie aisle, the new cookies were not there. There was however the 387 other cookies which were roughly the same thing, but the new cookies were nowhere to be found. I had everything else on my list, milk, bread, paper towles, dog food, you name it, but no new cookies. I am pretty sure that they were just the same old cookie with a big shiny "NEW" sticker on the box but, THEY WERE NEW AND THE STORE DIDN'T HAVE THEM!!!

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Having them not be there one day is not the same as the ODP being outdated. If something new comes out and its not available the first day, no one would complain all that much. However, if that same store 2 years later still does not have the cookies, then we have a real problem.

I've been shopping at the same store for much longer than two years. I know there are products more than ten years old, that it still doesn't carry.

So, of course, I spend all my free time going about from forum to forum ranting about that store which doesn't carry Anthrax Clusters and Crunchy Frog in its candy department.

NOT.

For my convenience, I simply shop first at the place which carries the most, and I look elsewhere if I need something that it doesn't carry.

Does the store claim to carry Anthrax Clusters and Crunchy Frog in its candy department? Because if it does then it should carry it. That is the point.

"So, of course, I spend all my free time going about from forum to forum ranting"

Who does that? It seems as if you may be alluding to someone. But I don’t see anyone on this forum that spends all their time ranting about anything. I see a few people rant and come and go, and I see some people who stick around for a good amount of time because they are genuinely concerned with the ODP.

I like to come visit every six months or so and toss in my 2 cents. I also hope each time I come back that something good will have happened to turn this ship back in the right direction. So I am not sure if you were pointing at me, but if you were, I do not agree.

If you were the manufacturer's rep responsible for store placement and shelf positioning of Anthrax Clusters and Crunchy Frog, you might feel differently about the matter. You would then want every store to carry your brands prominently.

But if you expected it as a right, most people would question your sanity.

brmehlman said:

But if you expected it as a right, most people would question your sanity.

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Im not sure of your point here. I think it missed the mark.

I dont expect any site that I own to be listed in the ODP as a right.

Does the store claim to carry Anthrax Clusters and Crunchy Frog in its candy department? Because if it does then it should carry it period. That was the point. The anthrax clusters are not my product. But if you say that you offer said products, then it should be on your shelves.

I think the main problem I have seen over the last 2 years of visiting this forum is that there is seemingly no middle ground. When in fact there should be. The metas think the ODP is perfect, and the visitors think that it is rubbish. The fact is the ODP is a pretty OK project. One that could use the points of view and advice from some of its users. Not to mention the help of some of the people that care to make it a better and more useful resource to all that see fit to use it.

Does the store claim to carry Anthrax Clusters and Crunchy Frog in its candy department? Because if it does then it should carry it period. That was the point. The anthrax clusters are not my product. But if you say that you offer said products, then it should be on your shelves.

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The ODP has never claimed that it lists every listable site that exists. It claims that it is striving to build the most comprehensive directory. Comprehensive just means more than everyone else, it doesn't mean that at this moment it lists every listable web site that exists.

I think the main problem I have seen over the last 2 years of visiting this forum is that there is seemingly no middle ground. When in fact there should be. The metas think the ODP is perfect, and the visitors think that it is rubbish. The fact is the ODP is a pretty OK project. One that could use the points of view and advice from some of its users. Not to mention the help of some of the people that care to make it a better and more useful resource to all that see fit to use it.

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No one here, least of all meta editors, has ever said the ODP was perfect. But most of the suggestions that non-editors make when they come here have already been made and discussed to death. One or more of them may or may not eventually be put into place but most end up just being contrary to the way the ODP runs.

chaz7979 said:

Does the store claim to carry Anthrax Clusters and Crunchy Frog in its candy department? Because if it does then it should carry it period. That was the point. The anthrax clusters are not my product. But if you say that you offer said products, then it should be on your shelves.

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Does DMOZ claim to list all sites? No.

chaz7979 said:

The metas think the ODP is perfect, and the visitors think that it is rubbish. The fact is the ODP is a pretty OK project.

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No editor thinks that the ODP is perfect. We know it is not.
I have never heard a visitor (the people for who we build the directory) complain. I have heard many webmasters (the people for who we do not build the directory) complain (for the fact that we don't list their webiste at the time they want us to list it).

pvgool said:

Does DMOZ claim to list all sites? No.

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But you do claim to list... lets say...
http://dmoz.org/Regional/North_Amer...Business_and_Economy/Real_Estate/Residential/

Yet the cat has bad listings;
http://resource-zone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=222460&postcount=2726

Without a regular old member like me, that is not good enough to be an editor, who knows how long that would have gone unoticed.

Can DMOZ be perfect? Probably not. Could this section of the ODP be better? It sure could. Will it? Who knows. Could I make it better? I am willing to bet I could. Will I ever get the chance to? Nope...probably not.

pvgool said:

No editor thinks that the ODP is perfect. We know it is not.
I have never heard a visitor (the people for who we build the directory) complain. I have heard many webmasters (the people for who we do not build the directory) complain (for the fact that we don't list their webiste at the time they want us to list it).

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Most dont admit it.

You have heard many webmasters complain, the people who you do not cater to. What is obvious is that people who are webmasters probably use this information more than people who are not. The webmasters are the more savvy users of the net, that this information is most important to.

Webmasters = Visitors

Wether it is through the ODP, copies of it, or SE's that use it, the mojority of the visitors who use it are probably webmasters themselves. Wether it is a free hosted site, blog, or community type account.

How many ODP editors have never created a website? I dont care how small. Webmasters not only visitors, they are also the editors.

>Webmasters not only visitors, they are also the editors.

But, we all have a right to expect, not at the same time.

When editors forget they have to lay aside their webmaster trappings completely in order to edit honestly, they cease to be editors and become abusive-webmasters-in-editors'-clothing.

That is always a potential problem, and sometimes a real problem. Oh, it's not a problem as often as might be imagined by those professional webmasters who can't lay aside their own selfish interests long enough to sniff the roses. But it is sometimes a real problem. So, when reviewing editing applications, we look very hard for people who can at least see the vast conflict of interest between professional webmasters and surfers -- and, furthermore, seem to have some interest in helping out on the surfers' side of the war.

But how can you find out enough about a person by their application? I that is the real problem. I think apps of good enough people are tossed aside, while someone who knows how to BS the application gets accepted. How can you tell someones true intensions from a text based application?

There have been some real well spoken and caring people that come to this forum to complain about the ODP that would probably be excellent editors.

I for one know I could be a huge help. I also know that if it meant not ever listing the site that I often complain about, and am pretty certain should be listed, that would be fine with me.

The surfers side of the war is the most important part for me. That and stopping submission spam, website spam, and comment spam...which in the end helps the surfers war. I am so active in trying to get people together to stop abusive webmasters that it consumes a lot of my day. Every time I find a way to stop automated submissions to one of my websites they find a way to get passed it.

>> How many ODP editors have never created a website? <<

A quite large number have not. I have no idea if it is 25% or 75% but many have not.

>I that is the real problem. I think apps of good enough people are tossed aside, while someone who knows how to BS the application gets accepted.

That is a perpetual problem, especially as the most vicious abusers are marketroids--that is, professional BSers.

>How can you tell someones true intensions from a text based application?

I'm not sure text-based is the problem: graphics wouldn't help any. Of course, you try to look at what people do, and what that says about their real interest.

Another experential guideline: people that are willing to trust others, are more likely to be trustworthy.

>There have been some real well spoken and caring people that come to this forum to complain about the ODP that would probably be excellent editors.

Yes. The trick is, as always, figuring out which ones are honest, and which ones are just taking advantage of the text-based forum interface to BS people. ODP editors sometimes know more about people's ACTIONS than we let on. And so our visitors often find it easier to BS other forum visitors than they do the editors who have had to deal with their actions.

But we don't know everything, and we make mistakes. Hence the massive amount of work that meta-editors have done to create and maintain multiple ways for abuse to be reported; hence the enormous amount of editor lobbying for an official way of reporting abuse to be incorporated in the website (which of course you wouldn't have seen, although you see the end-result of administration's having made that a software development priority.)

giz said:

>> How many ODP editors have never created a website? <<

A quite large number have not. I have no idea if it is 25% or 75% but many have not.

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Quite a larger number have been invloved with a website in one way or another.

hutcheson said:

>How can you tell someones true intensions from a text based application?

I'm not sure text-based is the problem: graphics wouldn't help any. Of course, you try to look at what people do, and what that says about their real interest.

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I am going to bite. I think you know I didnt mean graphical. My point is you can not even interview via voice based chat. You are forced to only read text which shows no tone or emotion.

I dont doubt that people act like asses then come here and pretend like they are saints to try and get casual viewers on their sides. Why not call them out on the forums? Or just ban people who rant for a cause that they obviously do not believe in based on blatant recent actions.

I will admit. When I came here 2 years ago I was plain old pissed. Shortly after I learned a lot about what happens and why things may have happened, and some where along the line I decided to sincerely give a crap about this project. I think things like that have happened to more visitors than just me based on what they have written.

I am going to bite. I think you know I didnt mean graphical. My point is you can not even interview via voice based chat. You are forced to only read text which shows no tone or emotion.

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You do know that people can BS when speaking, right? Unless we implement a full fingerprinting, background check kind of process (which I'm sure you'll agree would be ridiculous), some people will always be able to BS the process whatever form the process takes. And you'd be surprised at the emotion that can come through a text-based medium. Consider how your emotions have come through in some of your posts or in the posts of other people who've posted here.

I dont doubt that people act like asses then come here and pretend like they are saints to try and get casual viewers on their sides. Why not call them out on the forums? Or just ban people who rant for a cause that they obviously do not believe in based on blatant recent actions.

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We frequently do. But ultimately it detracts from everything else on the forum.

I will admit. When I came here 2 years ago I was plain old pissed. Shortly after I learned a lot about what happens and why things may have happened, and some where along the line I decided to sincerely give a crap about this project. I think things like that have happened to more visitors than just me based on what they have written.

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You mentioned earlier that you would be happy editing without touching your own site. I haven't looked at your posting history to see where you said you'd applied but did you actually apply somewhere that you had zero affiliations? If you really are interested in the project and not the listing of your site, then pick a category where you would have no effect on any site you're affiliated with at all.

motsa said:

You mentioned earlier that you would be happy editing without touching your own site. I haven't looked at your posting history to see where you said you'd applied but did you actually apply somewhere that you had zero affiliations? If you really are interested in the project and not the listing of your site, then pick a category where you would have no effect on any site you're affiliated with at all.

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I applied to my home town. A town in which I do not own a business or know any local business owners.

I also applied to my local real estate category. I thought this would be OK because my mothers website (personal agent website) was already added. I was I guess... affiliated, but have nothing to gain by editing there. I had just noticed a lot of dead links in the category and I was suprised that my moms site was added in no more than 48 hours, even though there was no listed editor and bad links in the category.

Its hard because the thing that I know most about I built a website about. So the cat I would be best to edit would give me something to gain. I think that is the case a lot of the time. If I am an authority on something I probably would build a site about it. I would think the best answer to this kind of situation would be to let someone edit a cateogry but never add their own site. They could leave it to be evaluated by another editor.

As for the applications. I know there is no way to be certain, I just knew, he knew, that I did not mean graphical.

I like the full background check though. I would love to have internal affairs type group on the ODP. A group of editors who research applications and existing editor affiliations. That would be fun, useful, and a challenge.

>I think you know I didnt mean graphical.

Ah, and THAT'S a problem with WORD-based communication--whether oral or written. I hadn't a clue what you meant. I'm not sure I can tell anything from tone of voice. I run into a lot of people who TRY to read from tone of voice, and ... wherever I've been able to compare them to reality, they've generally been wrong.

>I dont doubt that people act like asses then come here and pretend like they are saints to try and get casual viewers on their sides. Why not call them out on the forums?

It was a forum policy decision to avoid that. Problem is, the slimiest spammers can often turn into the smarmiest "what did I do, you hurt my feelings and now everybody should hate you forever" passive-aggressives at the drop of an elidible mark of punctuation. There is a real mix of visitors -- honest and sincere people with a genuine notion of altruism, as well as people who are certainly professional deceivers. And the point is, the honest visitors often can't tell the difference. All they can see is a smarmy victim of apparently unaccountable hostility.

It's better, the theory goes, to reserve judgment, or to attempt to appear to reserve judgment.

And ... as you point out, we're not always right. I've seen people who seemed honest to me, turn into frothing incoherency between posts; I've seen people who I thought could never be an editor, do good work.