Revisiting the Gambling Directory

With regards to a discussion found in another forum - and to keep a promise I made, I am starting a thread to provide feedback on the Gambling category at DMOZ.

Gambling Category Changes

If this is in the wrong place, someone please move it <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
 

http://dmoz.org/Games/Gambling/

Casino.com - meets the general ODP Gambling guidelines. Constantly updated. Primary purpose is to provide additional visibility for Boss Media casinos, as Casino.com is owned by Boss Media. No non-Boss Media casinos are or can be listed on this site. Contains a good selection of unique and syndicated content. Listing in current location is useful to visitors.
 

http://dmoz.org/Games/Gambling/

Casino.co.uk - Appears to meet all ODP Gambling guidelines. However, unique content difficult to find and not promoted directly on home page. Also has syndicated content which is promoted on home page. Primary purpose is to promote casinos of a number of manufacturers - most people visiting this site will sense heavy advertising and little content. Debatable for listing in its current position - perhaps ok for games/gambling/guides.

Needs editors to decide whether or not site falls foul of Affiliate and Advertising sections of ODP Gambling guidelines.

May be what some people thought when they saw my own site LOL - but I promote the unique content prominently up front, since it is the key to my site.
 

http://dmoz.org/Games/Gambling/

Casino.uk.co - does not meet the ODP Gambling Guidelines. Site has no unique content, and some syndicated content (Moreover). Primary purpose is advertising vehicle for little-known casinos. Appears to be playing off URL similarity for casino.co.uk.
 

http://dmoz.org/Games/Gambling/

Gambleswap.com - does not meet the ODP Gambling guidelines. Has no content. Sole purpose is to operate banner exchange. Of little to no use to any normal visitor - would be much more appropriate to put in a category such as games/gambling/webmaster resources or similar.
 

http://dmoz.org/Games/Gambling/

Disclaimer - I write articles for this magazine.

Gamblingtimes.com - Meets the ODP Gambling Guidelines. Content is all unique reproduction of its print version. Content is not syndicated elsewhere (that I know of, even on my own site). Plenty of useful resources here. Listing is useful in current location - but really belongs in the games/gambling/publications category.
 

http://dmoz.org/Games/Gambling/

gambling.net - no longer meets any guidelines for any site, as there is no longer any content, just a JPEG. But even in past, was nothing more than a shill portal for a particular manufacturer's casinos (World Gaming), and contained no unique content. Highly recommend removing until they put up the new site, if ever. Certainly of no use to any visitor at this time.
 

http://dmoz.org/Games/Gambling/

gamersmagazine.com - hmm, a new entry! Did not exist in this category last time I looked (although I could be wrong). Does not meet ODP Gambling guidelines. Does not have unique or syndicated content. Promotes only little-known casinos, likely shill for a small software manufacturer. Would recommend removal of this site.

(still stunned by the amount of junk in such a small group of listings!)
 

http://dmoz.org/Games/Gambling/

Winneronline.com - meets the ODP Gambling guidelines. Frequently-updated unique content, also carries syndicated content, provides various resources in more than one language. Deserves its listing here like Casino.com, but on afterthought both sites really belong in games/gambling/guides. Wouldn't move them now, though, at least not until someone wants to undertake a complete reorganization and recategorization.

But then again, guides is really crowded... and there's going to be a lot for me to go through.

That's it for today... got the main section out of the way. Would appreciate any comments - keep in mind that this is based on my sole opinion, and also based on my knowledge of the industry and the sites. YMMV.
 

arkoid

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
118
*sigh* I hate playing this game but here we go again :

Casino.com - meets the general ODP Gambling guidelines

I agree.

Casino.co.uk - Appears to meet all ODP Gambling guidelines

I agree, but I'm getting some ASP script errors, I might need to double-check this site later.

Casino.uk.co - does not meet the ODP Gambling Guidelines

Well, that's your opinion. I see some unique content on this site (polls, quizzes, screensavers, wallpapers, scores and stats, etc...) I agree that part of the content has been taken from other sources though. (like the news for example)

Gambleswap.com - does not meet the ODP Gambling guidelines

Why not please? I think that's the only site listed in Games/Gambling offering this type of service to webmasters. That makes it unique.

would be much more appropriate to put in a category such as games/gambling/webmaster resources or similar

Yup, but we don't create sub-categories for only one site. Now you know why it has been put there temporarily.

gambling.net - no longer meets any guidelines for any site

That's right, the site has disappeared for some reasons. Thanks for pointing that out.

gamersmagazine.com - hmm, a new entry! Did not exist in this category last time I looked (although I could be wrong)

Unless the last time you checked is before May 2000, then you're wrong. This site has gaming rules and strategies that could be pretty useful to the visitors. I know that this content is also available on various sites, but who's the legitimate author of these pages? Who is copying who? Since I don't know the answer, I'll keep this site listed for now.

Winneronline.com - meets the ODP Gambling guidelines

I agree.
 

Not trying to play a game here, Arkoid. I was posting this in response to another thread - which I linked - asking for me to provide some information, perhaps help weed out some of the sites.

But I'm glad someone is watching <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree, but I'm getting some ASP script errors
Was definitely a bit funky. I went to visit the Brokopp questions area and it was close to impossible to use, seemed as if it had been broken into four separate frames.

I see some unique content on this site (polls, quizzes, screensavers, wallpapers, scores and stats, etc...)
I have very, very grave doubts about this. First of all, the "unique" content is NOT promoted on the front page - instead there is a list of casinos. I don't know what that reminds you of, but it reminds me of a banner farm, except instead of banners there are direct links to casinos. There is nothing else of any substance on the page.

Five polls were created on this site ever. The last one - in fact ALL of them - expired on 12/22/2000. That is nearly two years.

Based on this, I would be willing to bet that the horoscope has not changed for a while either. I'll check back tomorrow and see what mine says but there is a specific reference to lucky number for "Today". The likelihood is that this is also syndicated content, and certainly does not qualify as unique gambling content. And although there are screensavers and wallpapers, I cannot personally justify them as unique content, particularly as there are four there which have probably never ever changed.

Keep in mind that I am not an editor - instead, I am a visitor to the site with a good knowledge of the industry. Also keep in mind that, if through some very strange twist of fate this site is allowed to remain, it belongs in games/gambling/guides, NOT the main section.

I can send other people there to give their opinions as well - but saying that this site is unique and meets the ODP Gambling guidelines is really going out on a limb. No offense intended, but I strongly disagree with you on this one.

Why not please? I think that's the only site listed in Games/Gambling offering this type of service to webmasters. That makes it unique.
Arkoid, do you mind if I ask you if you have anything to do with these sites?

This is of ZERO use to the average visitor. I'm sorry, but that definitely does not qualify as unique content. And even if you consider it a resource - which it is - it does NOT belong in the main category. As for temporary, and "one site", if you ask me that is not justified.

Useful to webmasters, yes. Useful to the great majority of visitors to this category, I highly doubt it.

Unless the last time you checked is before May 2000, then you're wrong. This site has gaming rules and strategies that could be pretty useful to the visitors. I know that this content is also available on various sites, but who's the legitimate author of these pages? Who is copying who? Since I don't know the answer, I'll keep this site listed for now.
I said I was willing to be wrong LOL.

If the articles are not properly attributed, it would be a safe bet to say that the content is not unique. Not only have I seen the same articles elsewhere, none of it has attribution anywhere that I can remember.

By the way, the dates on the news say August 29 - but just from personal memory I can tell you that the news is more than ONE YEAR old. Besides, this belongs in games/gambling/guides if it is allowed to stay.

Does it behoove DMOZ to leave its categories full of trash and abandoned sites?

I don't mean to directly challenge you as a person - however, in your position as editor of the category, I would have to say that I strongly disagree with some of the criteria by which you have listed some of the sites in the main area.

I know. DMOZ is a free resource staffed by volunteers. But that does not mean that any section should be allowed to go stagnant. And even though I did not qualify as an editor - by your reckoning if I am not mistaken - I still believe that I have sufficient knowledge to know about this industry and what is and isn't working. But outdated sites really do not belong here anywhere at all.

I am prepared to help as I said before, as an outsider or as an editor. But I am also going to to continue to do everything I can to make sure that this category is kept fresh, regardless of what that entails, because it reflects not only on DMOZ, but the industry itself.

Lastly, let me point out that this is not a vendetta. I said I would do this regardless of whether my site was listed or not - and kc was kind enough to take another look at the site and list it in games/gambling/guides. So I have little to gain by pointing out what I believe needs to be done.

Any of you who would like to know more about me can simply email me, I don't feel it is appropriate to say too much about myself in the forums (other than what has already been said here and in the thread in the Submissions forum). I have updated my profile to show my email address.
 

arkoid

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
118
Feel free to disagree with me but none of these sites will be deleted (that must be because I'm affiliated with ALL of them right?). We don't reject sites because the unique content is not on the index page, we don't reject sites solely because they are outdated and we don't reject sites that are unique in a category because we *think* that no one will find a use for these sites. (well, *I* don't!)

As for the Guides category. When this category was created, its purpose was to include sites offering gaming rules, tips, strategies, etc... on various type of games. Apparently, webmasters decided that this category would be the best one to submit all their affiliate links farm, portals, directories, etc... Consequently, this category is now the worst spam magnet in the Gambling section and quite difficult to edit in.

In a big project like DMOZ, based on the work of thousands of volunteers, you'll obviously find different people with different views on what should be listed or what should be rejected. That's confusing for some, a Good Thing for some others but I don't think that's gonna change in the near future. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />
 

OK.

Just for example, then, and only because I know my site better than I know everyone else's LOL.

Why would my site be excluded from the main category while sites like gamble.uk.co and gamersmagazine.com be included?

As long as one is able to ask that question, it should be plainly obvious that either there is some sort of unfair or unbalanced penalty being applied, or some sort of unfair bias being given to these two sites. I'll leave gambleswap.com out of it for now because I don't entirely disagree with you there.

Outdated sites DO need to be edited out, in my opinion, such as gambling.net which obviously doesn't have content now. At the very least, they should be deprecated. The objective of DMOZ is to provide a useful resource for Netizens searching for certain things (like you really need me to tell you this LOL) and outdated sites - especially those with dubious content - do not fall under the description of "useful". What good does it do a visitor, for example, to read old news or take part in a poll which was closed a long time ago?

As part of a site which has regularly updated content, it surely makes sense to have the old content as well. By itself, however, it just makes DMOZ and the category look outdated.

Like I said at the start, I'm just expressing my opinion. But I fully believe the arguments I am making are not only logical but realistic as well - and I believe that I can find support for that.

Yes, there's room for disagreement and differing opinions. But the cases I make light of are not even borderline. They do not serve any unique or particularly useful purpose to the people that visit them.
 

arkoid

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
118
I really don't understand what's the point of discussing about gambling.net since this site has been deleted already. As for your own site, if it's the one in your profile, it's already listed since September 13th so once again, I don't understand why you're still complaining about that.

Oh, I forgot to mention in my last post that all the sites we're talking about have been moved to the Guides categories now. That was not the intended purpose of this category at the beginning but it seems like it IS now. <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />
 

I must be behind a cache or something LOL. I looked just 10 minutes ago and gambling.net was still there.

No, I'm not complaining about my site, I already said above that kc had kindly reviewed it again and put it in the games/gambling/guides category. All I was saying is there was a lack of consistency when listing some sites in the games/gambling category when they belonged in other sub-categories. But if you say this has been fixed, I no longer have any complaints about that - even if I do believe some of them do not deserve listings.

If it wasn't the intended purpose... then how would you categorize sites like mine or gamersmagazine.com or casino.uk.co? They all either get categorized the same way or they all get put in the main area if you ask me.

I don't begrudge you your "job" - it has been pointed out repeatedly by a number of editors that this is a spam magnet/tough job/thankless job etc. All I want to see is consistency in an effort to make DMOZ the resource it was intended to be - and since gambling happens to be my category, it's only natural that I start here.

If for some reason I go into another category to search for a resource (I don't own any other sites) and I were to find the same thing, I would make the same complaint - perhaps a little less forcefully, but the complaint would be made.

I just refreshed the category again ... and they are all still there. I changed ISP connections mid-stream... I wonder if the entire country is behind a cache... (Thailand is a bit backwards when it comes to the Net) or if perhaps it takes time for DMOZ to refresh...

(edited to make it a bit more clear and to correct URL mistake)
 

arkoid

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
118
You won't see the changes live on the public side, please be patient.

As for the inconsistencies. Please don't believe that I built the whole Games/Gambling categories alone! Most of these categories were already there well before I became an editor myself! A LOT of different people have contributed to build the actual structure and like I said before, a lot of different people mean a lot of different views on how to organize "their" categories. I'm afraid that inconsistencies will be part of the game as long as this project will remain in its actual state.

If it wasn't the intended purpose... then how would you categorize sites like mine or gamingmagazine.net or casino.uk.co? They all either get categorized the same way or they all get put in the main area if you ask me.

Quite some time ago, there was a category called Games/Gambling/Online . This category had only a few very general sites and a few sub-categories. One day, during a reorganization, these sub-categories have been relocated and the G/G/Online category has been deleted. The sites in G/G/Online were mostly portals. These sites needed a new home and since they were too general to fit in a more specific category, they were sent to G/G.

Not so long ago, the Gambling guidelines have been revised and the G/G/Directories category has been deleted shortly after to comply with these new guidelines. Since that day, submitters have been looking for a new category to send their spammy sites and they discovered G/G/Guides ! A bunch of editors have been editing there in the past and that's not surprising to see all kind of stuff listed there. Some of these sites are portals similar to the ones in G/G but nobody talked about moving the sites in G/G to the Guides subcat. This move should have been done a long time ago but I guess some of us were still hoping to find a better way to classify these sites than sending them in the Guides category. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> So that's the little story that might explain some inconsistencies you've seen in the past. There's a lot of things going on behind the scene and even if everything seem so simple sometimes... trust me, it isn't so! <img src="/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
 

&gt;&gt; it should be plainly obvious that either there is some sort of unfair or unbalanced penalty being applied, or some sort of unfair bias being given to these two sites&lt;&lt;

I'm late replying to this thread, but I disagree that it's an Either/Or situation. "Editor discretion" is a distinct possibility. There are well over 2000 sites listed in the Games/Gambling area. Are we going to review them all?
 

Appreciate the detail, Arkoid.

While it's true that most of us do not know what goes on behind the scenes, the image you should be all be concerned with is what the public perceives.

KC, the point is essentially moot now - but the whole point was that there was an apparent imbalance by the way things were classified - and that these had been pointed out and not addressed. But of course they have been addressed now. Most sites are already properly categorized, I suspect (like a casino obviously belongs in games/gambling/casinos).

I was only offering to help because I promised I would. If I am interfering just let me know and I will disappear back into the woodwork.
 

thehelper

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
4,996
I don't want to see you disappear. You are in the industry and you seem to be a reasonable person. I think we can learn something from this and I for one do not want to see you go away.

I would also love to see you try another application at being an editor - I think the chances are high you would make a good one.
 
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