Site moved is there a reason?

dstanovic

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Mar 26, 2002
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372
I just noticed one of my sites was moved to a lower category. Does this happen often? Why is it done?
Site in question SEO Ohio Web Design (www.seo-ohio-web-design)

Was at http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Designers/S/

Now at:
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Designers/Basic_Service/S/

I don't get upset often, but I see no reason to move the site to a lower category. I don't believe my skills as a web designer or web promotion has degraded - but my listing has.

Dave Stanovic
 

Khym_Chanur

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Mar 26, 2002
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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>I just noticed one of my sites was moved to a lower category. Does this happen often? Why is it done?

...

I don't believe my skills as a web designer or web promotion has degraded - but my listing has.<p><hr></blockquote>A site being moved to a lower level category only means that the site is a more precise fit for that lower level category, and says nothing about the quality of the site or the company/people offering the site.

The Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Designers/ category has been undergoing a re-organization for the past several months, with the creation of new categories "Basic Service", "Full Service", "Dynamic and Multimedia", and "Freelance". Editors are systematically going through all sites directly under Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Designers/ and moving them to the appropriate lower level categories. There are many sites are still at the higher level category you once had, but that's because there's a lot of sites to move, and only so many editors to go around.

If you feel that you do not belong in "Basic Services", you may contact an editor about it, but it's likely nothing will be done about it until the end of the re-organization.

The "Basic Service" description:

Who Belongs in This Category?

In addition to basic design, sites in this category may offer any combination of the following services:
  • shopping carts
  • domain name registration assistance
  • hosting assistance
  • search engine submission
  • maintenance
  • custom graphics[/list:u]Sites offering services to primarily corporate sites, or any of the following major services should not be listed in this category:
    • primary hosting services
    • e-commerce
    • server-side programming and databases
    • complex Flash, XML, or DHTML driven web design[/list:u]These companies are located in Full Service.

    ------------------------------

    The "Full Service" description:

    Who Belongs in This Category?

    In addition to basic design, sites in this category must offer a wide range of web design and devolpment services. These could include:
    • domain name registration assistance
    • hosting assistance
    • search engine submission
    • maintenance
    • custom graphics
    • hosting services
    • e-commerce
    • server-side programming and databases
    • complex Flash, XML, or DHTML driven web design
    • consulting
    • Intranet architecture[/list:u]Companies which do not provide most of these services may belong in Basic Service.
 

dstanovic

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Mar 26, 2002
Messages
372
Khym_Chanur,

Respectfully I would have to state that we belong where we were originally placed under your description of services. Do I need to list everything that we provide within our website? I have listed below the service % of our business although I did not know this was a requirement of the Designers category.

domain name registration assistance - 90% of our sites
hosting assistance - 75-80%
search engine submission - 100% developed sites/stand alone service
maintenance - probably 70% (have to check)
custom graphics - 100% developed sites
hosting services - we recommend a host and assist as above
e-commerce - very few but we can develop any ecommerce site
server-side programming and databases - 20% of developed sites
complex Flash, XML, or DHTML driven web design - trying to get away from Flash etc but we still do it.
consulting - all the time

As I have listed above I believe we belong in the full service dept. We have never turned away a customer yet that we were unable to fulfill their needs. We do mostly referral work so our site has taken a back-seat to our customers needs. I will agree that we target the service and small business industries since we have found this to be a very good market. We do not provide services of any kind to the adult or gambling markets, but that is a personal choice we have made. Like I say, just because we do not have a long list of services offered on the site does not mean we do not provide them. If I had known this was a requirement to be listed in the general designers section of DMOZ I would have done that a long time ago. You certainly have my permission to change my description to include the above services and I will be more than happy to include a "List Of Services" page on this website.

Respectfully,
Dave Stanovic

Edited: Were these sites moved in any given order like alphabetically since I notice there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason for the ones that were moved and the one still listed in the top "S" category. Under this category there will be very few left if you are going by the descriptions (which I don't believe should contain every service that is offered by a development company).

My 2-cents
 

donaldb

Member
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Mar 25, 2002
Messages
5,146
Dave,
I thought I would pipe up here, as I'm involved in the reorganization of the Designers categories, and I actually moved your site to Basic_Service from Designers/S

First of all Khym_Chanur did a great job explaining the reorganization, but I thought I should add a few things. The reason we decided to reorganize these categories was because the letter categories in the alphabars were getting too huge. They took a long time for users to access exspecially on a slow connection. And once the page was loaded it was next to impossible to actually go through all of the sites to find something of value. So we decided to create new, more specific categories and move everything out of the alphabars into the new specific categories, and then delete the alphabars. As you can see the number categories 0-9 are moved and deleted, and many of the letter categories have zero sites as we've moved those. Including the sites that are still waiting for review, we have over 20,000 sites to be moved.

It was a tough debate about how to create the new categories. Almost every site we had listed did indeed have a "Services" page of some sort. This was how we decided on what to include in which category. We had various names for the categories, but we finally settled on Basic_Service. We were indeed worried that it would make the businesses placed in there feel that they were somehow inferior to the ones placed in Full_Service. This was not the intention, but it was hard to get around. It was better than calling them "Companies who offer lots of services", and "Companies who offer less services" /images/icons/smile.gif When it comes right down to it, the majority of the companies that were previously in the alphabars fit into the Basic_Service category very nicely.

As for your company, "server-side programming and databases - 20% of developed sites" would be the deciding factor to placing you in the Full_Service category. When I reviewed your site I didn't see this service. It's not your fault, as you didn't know that we were making these changes. But yes, we are going by what we see on the site. If you do indeed provide these services, then we can talk about moving your site to Full.

As to how we are moving the sites, as usual, there are too many sites, and not enough editors /images/icons/smile.gif Each of the editors involved has taken on various numbers and letters to move. I'm moving R and S at the moment. As you can imagine with 20,000 sites to move we tend to all do it differently, but for the S category I was focusing on the sites that already had a pretty good description that wasn't going to reguire editing before being moved, as our secondary objective with this reorganization was to tidy up descriptions and weed out other problem listings. Letter S was one of the biggest categories, and one of the messiest. It's slow going as most of the descriptions need to be rewritten.

One of our other goals with this was to find physical addresses for as many sites as possible so that we could add the locations to the descriptions so that the Regional editors could easily come to these categories and find the sites that need to be placed in their Regional locality categories.

In the long run, this was not being done to punish anyone, but to improve the Designers categories, to help the users find the information they are looking for. Remember that we are doing this for the person looking for the information, not for the companies who are being listed.

I hope this helps a bit,

don
 

dstanovic

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Mar 26, 2002
Messages
372
donaldb,

Great post and so was the post by Khym_Chanur. I am simply asking if it is a requirement to provide a list of services page on a website to get into the Top Level&gt;&gt;Designers? I would imagine that most of the developers do/will provide the bulk of these services that are described above. We do, and we don’t advertise it – maybe we should. Also this seems to be hanging on the description that was given by DMOZ editors of your site. It’s amazing to go through the categories and wonder how some sites get every keyword put into their description and others get a four word description. I am not complaining of my own sites because I think every description given by an editor has been fair, clear and concise. That said you can leave my site wherever you see fit, as this is your option /images/icons/smile.gif

Let’s get away from my site for a moment:

As a user and a zealous supporter of DMOZ/ODP I cannot help but see where this can change the users perspective on the professionalism of companies put into this category. Did you ever meet a person that wanted their company represented as/by a "basic" company? Would you want to state that your site is being developed by a "basic" development company?

As has been repeated by many editors – “who really uses DMOZ to search for anything?”

If a user tried to use DMOZ to find a web development company I think most would give up after Designers&gt;A. So designers B-Z would never have a chance if anyone ever "really" used DMOZ to find a web development company (there are just too many).
This brings me to the point where it has been repeated and I agree with – “DMOZ/ODP is for users not for site owners” .

Since users will “NEVER” go through DMOZ Designers&gt;&gt; to find a web development company to fit their needs (it would literally take days) – how are they likely to sort through all of the web developers?

My guess would be a SE like Google. So if you take all these so-called “basic” (which is very judgmental in my opinion) web designers and stick them in a lower category, what are the chances they will get represented equally by DMOZ data? I can give my opinion – zilch. The Google PR of this lower category might as well be zero compared to the top level designers category. It can be said this has to do more with site owners than users of DMOZ/ODP data but in this case I disagree. If users are not given “relevant” results because of DMOZ change in structure this is a reflection on DMOZ/ODP itself.

Just my 2-cents
I am not trying to start anything resembling some of the posts in this forum - I am merely stating my honest opinion.

Sincerely,
David Stanovic
 

So suggest another category name other than the one including "basic". I don't think these thousands of sites are going to get unsorted /images/icons/wink.gif
 

donaldb

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Messages
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I don't think you'd get an arguement from me that Basic_Service is not the best name, but we did throw out a lot of different names for these categories and they all had their problems. Basic ended up being the best if you can believe that /images/icons/smile.gif No matter what we called them, someone was going to be unhappy about it. If you do look through the Basic categories you'll see that most Web Designers do only offer basic design and development services. Graphics and HTML.

One of the other reasons for breaking these down was so that we could have a better chance of keeping up with the backlog. Of the 20,000 sites, probably 10,000 are still unreviewed. This is a nightmare for us. Because the categories were so huge, newer editors could not really apply to edit these. By breaking these down into smaller categories it gives newer editors an opportunity to take on these smaller categories and hopefully keep up with the backlog.

As for users finding web dev companies, I think our second goal of adding location information is going to help with that. Most people are honestly going to be searching in a SE for something local to them. No matter what your coverage area is, people still tend to look for a business that is local. Having the location in the descriptions means that Regional editors can easily find these sites in the Designers categories, and double-list them in their regional locality category. Also an SE is going to have these locations in their copy as well. So when I search for "Toronto Web Design" I'm probably going to get a good representation of companies that are local to me.

So if you take all these so-called “basic” (which is very judgmental in my opinion) web designers and stick them in a lower category

There's no lower category. Basic_Service and Full_Service are on the same level. Remember that once we get all of the sites moved out of the Designers alphabars we will be removing those top level alphabars.

As for the quality of the descriptions, I think we realize that the quality is not the best at the moment. Because our goal was to move these as quickly as possible so that there would be as little disruption as possible, we opted to only clean up those descriptions that were glaringly bad! I think we've done a good job with this. Some of the descriptions were truely old and out of date, and had keywords and hype. The plan is that once everything is moved we will be able to go through the smaller categories and clean up things as needed. Plus we'll hopefully be able to entice new editors into the categories to help clean up the descriptions.

When you're doing a reorganization this massive there are always going to be problems. We did a lot of planning, and we have a great deal of discussion on an ongoing basis as to how best to process these sites. If you could see our internal discussions you would see that we've had 9 threads of 100 posts each just about the specifics of the move. Then we have two other threads to discuss specific sites for placement and issues where a company has moved locations and we want to inform the Regional editors. The editors in the other Computer areas are probably sick to death of our threads always being at the top of the forum /images/icons/smile.gif
 

dstanovic

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Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
372
Donald and Keith,

I agree with you guys in so many ways /images/icons/smile.gif

Since my opinion was asked:

Since http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Designers/

is the top category and these are the following sub-categories:

Basic Service
Dynamic and Multimedia
Freelance
Full Service

I would have instead (call me stupid if you want) /images/icons/smile.gif

Corporate
Ecommerce
Multimedia
Small Business


Since almost all designers fit/specialize in one of the above categories – even by their description of their existing listing in DMOZ. You could even make it more relevant (might be stretching it) by adding categories including “Non-Profit” and “Personal” since I have noticed the two mentioned quite often.

Freelance seems like a confused category listing both peoples names and businesses and should be able to be migrated into one of the above.

(below was taken from descriptions in full service area)
Full service doesn’t make any sense since most web developers offer domain registration, search engine submission, graphic design, publishing, maintenance, Java, consulting, scanning pictures, and hosting services (I am sure at least 90% of hosting, isp services by web designers is affiliate as most design firms do not run their own isp/web servers – I do not use affiliate just recommend a host).

I do not believe hosting, graphics design (all of the above under full service)etc etc etc should come into play at all. Most web designers provide these services in one way or another, also there are separate categories in DMOZ for these services. The above mentioned categories would allow someone browsing the ODP for services go directly to the category of their interest.

This is my opinion on the subject that I believe is the most “user” friendly and fair to all.

Sincerely,
Dave Stanovic
 

donaldb

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Believe me when I say, we tried those exact category names /images/icons/smile.gif I can't remember all of the arguments for and against them, but basically I think it was the fact that Small Business was probably going to catch the majority of the sites, so we weren't really going to solve the problem of the huge letter categories.

But don't worry too much about this. Those category names are not carved in stone. And we still discuss this issue. If we decide to change the names, and the descriptions later it will be a lot easier for us to re-sort these now that the junk has been weeded out, the categories are considerably smaller, and the descriptions are better. I know that probably doesn't seem like the best way to do it, but it truely was the best solution at the time, and under the circumstances. You should apply to edit and then you could see the fun debates we have internally /images/icons/smile.gif

We also know there is a lot of overlap with other categories, and we are talking about those issues too. But there's only so much that a handfull of us can do. Our goal was to improve these Designer categories and I think we are accomplishing that. They will never be perfect, but they are better /images/icons/smile.gif
 

hutcheson

Curlie Meta
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Mar 23, 2002
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19,136
&gt;&gt;It’s amazing to go through the categories and wonder how some sites get every keyword put into their description and others get a four word description.

Each editor approaches descriptions differently, and undoubtedly this is part of the difference, but the submitters have a major effect also:

"A pharisee and a publican went up to the marketplace to advertise.

The pharisee stood on the street corner and shouted, "We're not like all those other firms! We have a one-stop shop for all your needs. We fully optimize your paradigms while ensuring your needs are met with only the highest quality services with a smile! You can be sure that every contact with us will leave you fully satisfied! We have been in business since 8:45, and can demonstrate the flexibility needed in today's marketplace!" and to this he added yet more, to the same effect and point.

The publican sat down in a corner of the market where the poorer tenant-farmers congregated, and laid out in a row in front of him baskets of leeks, garlic, cucumbers, dill, barley, and figs.

Which one of these, think you, would get more keywords from the passers-by?

I'll tell you, the pharisee found few customers, and some of them only because they thought he was a pimp. But the publican sold all of his produce and returned to his hovel with enough money to pay his rent."

I start by deleting all the hype from a description. (From many descriptions, there leaves nothing left, not even a clue as to the nature of the business!)

I also delete the from the list of services whatever could be assumed from the category, or inappropriate levels of detail.

Then I add back what seems to me necessary to describe the services offered (which may be less than what the owner would have given, and is almost certain to be less than what I would have left in place in step 2, if the owner had said it.

Thus, the presence of hype and over-specification on the submittal directly leads to less specificity in the description on the actual listing. On the other hand, some poor editors simply click-through to accept drastically over-typed descriptions. Those stick out, as you have noticed, like a sore thumb. When I go through a category and notice such a description, I usually edit it to whack the hype (but may not re-review the site, and skip step 3 above, thus not even adding my own description. It is a matter of priorities -- while hype-whacking is critical to the directory's credibility, listing new sites is more valuable than adding fulsome descriptions to sites that have minimally adequate ones.) But as a result of all this, these descriptions will probably be the briefest and least-descriptive of all the sites I edit.

Your editor, and their mileage, may vary. But trying to get as many self-gratulatory or key-words as the WORST description already in the category is not a good idea. If you succeed, it just means your listing is palpably the first to get hype-whacked.
 

dstanovic

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Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
372
Donald,

I understand your dilemma. But this reminds me of a thread about the religious categories.

I don’t understand what the “size” of a category has to do with anything – again, reminds me of a religious category thread ?

Lets be realistic about it – no matter how you break down the categories those companies that did not use names like “1web-design” would never be seen anyways if a user was browsing the DMOZ site.

I don’t expect things to change since I am one user and I am sure the editors have thought about this long and hard before coming to this decision. I know categories don’t change on a whim but I cannot help but state the “Basic” still rubs me the wrong way and “cheapens” the sites listed there.

Seems like it could be “Designers” instead of Basic Designers and “Extended Features”, “Extended Technologies”, “Extended Designers”, “Comprehensive Technology Designers” or “Extended Services” instead of Full Service. When the term “basic” is applied alongside the term “full service” you cannot help but feel you are doing “without” something by choosing “basic” service. Trouble is I believe that at least 70% of the sites that will be listed in the “Basic” category perform/offer services on a daily basis that fit into the “Full Service” category.

I will certainly change our site in the near future (it's going to be completely changed as it is ugly)and list all of our services so that we will comply with the “Full Service” category “only” because we do, and I cannot stand that term “basic” (I know that may sound terrible/petty but that’s how bad I think that category description is). I will then try for a category change. It is just when someone does a search for “Ohio search engine optimization” in Google I don’t want them hit with our DMOZ listing stating “Basic Designers”.

I really enjoy this forum and the editors who post here and I believe this forum brings to light the everyday dilemmas that are faced by the editors. I hope my comments do not add to your dilemmas /images/icons/smile.gif


Thanks Again,
Dave Stanovic
 

dstanovic

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
372
hutcheson,

Your post makes a lot of sense /images/icons/smile.gif

I think that it is often looked upon as abuse by an editor when you see some of the keyword stuffed descriptions given. I am sure 99% of the time it is due to bad editing by a inexperienced editor. When I submit descriptions for DMOZ I always start out with a full description (about a paragraph or 25-30 words), then I try to keep chipping away at what "really" describes the site and get rid of the fluff. Most of the time I end up with a 6-8 word description upon submission. If the editor changes the description, I have found most of the time they actually add words to the description. That's when I know that I'm not adding fluff and hype /images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks,
Dave S.
 

Hi, Dave,

The problem with big categories, like the alphabetical ones under web design, is that they attract hundreds and thousands of submissions. So when the editor tries to open the unreviewed queue he gets a monster page that is almost impossible to load, even with fast access. This creates a vicious cycle where hardly anyone can edit, so the queue backs up, so the submitter submits a few more times...

So basically you're in the middle of an emergency rescue of the entire section. When they get finished, the sites will be sorted into much smaller unreviewed queues that any editor can handle, which will make everybody a lot happier.

They aren't trying to brush you off; it's just that they're in the middle of a huge job. The category name can always be changed. It is often a challenge to distill the essence of a category into one or two words that instantly identify the subject and don't offend anybody. So they'll take their time and discuss it.
 

dstanovic

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
372
vmcknight,

So there is "something" to large categories that I wasn't aware of (I'm sure there is much more that I'm not aware of). Thanks for that info since I was unaware of this /images/icons/smile.gif

I am sure that things will work out - they always do /images/icons/wink.gif

Sincerely,
Dave Stanovic
 

Khym_Chanur

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
192
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Do I need to list everything that we provide within our website?<p><hr></blockquote>It's not a requirement, but if you list it in such a way that it's easy for a visitor to find, you'd be more likely to end up in the proper category sooner. Typically, an editor isn't going to go deep into a site to make sure if it belongs in category X or Y ("Basic Service" or "Full Service"). We usually only dig deep into a site for categories prone to abuse, to make sure the submitter isn't trying to slip anything by us.
 

dstanovic

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
372
Khym_Chanur,

Thanks for the info and reply.
BTW I always wanted to tell you how it makes me /images/icons/smile.gif everytime I read your sig &lt;&lt; Give a man a match&gt;&gt;.

Thanks Again,
Dave
 
K

kujanomiko

To expand on khym's reply: please, if you can take the time to code that one extra page with your services on it, do so. /images/icons/laugh.gif A page with a services page stating: "Services include web design, website re-design, domain registration, hosting, domain parking, e-commerce, CGI-BIN, PHP, ASP, search engine optimization, POP3 email, forwarders and autoresponders." is going to get more listed in the description (because its all there as proof) than when you have to scrounge around the site just to grab "Offers web design, hosting and domain registration."

/images/icons/wink.gif
 
P

poppyseed

I too am involved in the re-org. I had nothing to do with the choosing of the new category names, as I only came on board about a month ago -- that said, I think they are pretty self explanitory, and fine category names.

Regarding Freelance, it just means, anyone not affiliated with a company or group of people. There are plenty of high quality webdesigners listed in Freelance, and ones who pride themselves on not being affiliated with a big company.
 
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