Site was added to ODP, then removed

spectregunner

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
8,768
I mean they should have some reason for their site being branded spam. This is purely an ethical perspective.

There is a vast difference between a site being not listable and a site being spam -- and much of the angst directed at the ODP is based on the assumption that sites we deem not listable are deemed to be spam.
 

Isometric

Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
28
Hi Spectre,

I am sure there are many grey areas involved. This is why I think people should be made aware of things like that.

IMHO - In the specific scenario you laid out in scenario number 2. This is a hypothetical only as it may not be possible in the real world ODP, due to restrictions on resources an so on. I believe that in that sort of situation where both sites are suitable the site owner should have some say in which site should be listed.

In scenario number one the guy should be told to stop doing it then if it continues reject his submissions. Maybe a kind of three strikes and your out policy or something, he should still be made aware of it though and if he begs and pleads and explains himself enough, maybe he should be let back in on a kind of trial basis. Then again if all the sites he creates are brilliant and should be seen by everyone then maybe I personally would let him slide. They would have to really, really, really worthwhile though. - I don't think you can really make that a policy though.
 

jimnoble

DMOZ Meta
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
18,915
Location
Southern England
In scenario number one the guy should be told to stop doing it...
I used to email serial offenders but it didn't make any difference - so I started emailing website owners instead :D . Guess what, the problem with that offender goes away.
 

hutcheson

Curlie Meta
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
19,136
The current process is based on non-communication, because communication is just flat too risky. You never know when some insistent spammer will show up on your doorstep, or call you at work, or electronically stalk you (just to pick some real-live examples.)

Volunteers just shouldn't have to deal with that. And THAT IS an ethical issue. We signed on to build a directory, not to play russian roulette via e-mail. And ... that communication, risky as it is, DOESN'T HELP US BUILD THE DIRECTORY.

>I believe that in that sort of situation where both sites are suitable the site owner should have some say in which site should be listed.

The site owner has absolute control. Always. There's no need for him to communicate with us through e-mail. All he has to do is indicate, ON THE WEBSITES, which site is the "main site." We're easy; we just list websites based on the content on the website. If "mydoorway.com" clearly is labelled "service provided by mycompany.com", and mycompany.com links to mydoorway.com, then ... that's an end of discussion. The website owner has told everyone which site is the main site, and we absolutely honor that.

The situation that usually arises is more deceptive: "mycompany1.com" and "mycompany2.com", both offering services of the same person, or both supposedly providing income to the same person. But they don't refer to each other in any way.

Now, that person is just flat being dishonest, and there's not a reason on earth to cut him a nanometer of slack. He can count himself receiving grace far beyond his desert, if both sites aren't banned silently. Because an honest person just flat wouldn't BE in his shoes, and there's no reason to listen to his lies by e-mail, any more than there is reason to list either of his sites just because of some webmaster privilege. That's loss of trust. And he worked hard for it, he earned it.

No need to communicate with him: he wanted a reputation as the sort of person who couldn't afford to risk all his reputation in one place ... and he has it.

And people who think like this don't create
"really worthwhile" sites. They just flat. don't. EVER. do. it. It is not something that happens, and we don't need a policy or process to handle that particular nonpossibility. At best, they generate A BARELY-listable site, and if we can't figure out which one it was, then ... they didn't even generate one listable site. They can hardly get into that boat by accident. They work for it. They did it on purpose.

>he should still be made aware of it...

The submittal policy is Moses and the Prophets -- all the awareness training needed. If he won't hear M&TP, then why would he listen to me?

It's fairly simple. The best thing for everyone is to follow the submittal policies. We often cut a bit of slack because ... well, because we're about building a directory, and banning websites doesn't directly contribute to that goal. But this is the key point: people are welcome to help, but they are NOT welcome to bug the help. If people play by the rules, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, we promise it won't bug the help. If people stop trying to help and start trying to push, manipulate, pressure, irritate .... we don't OPEN channels of communication. We slam them shut. If they're not helping, then we don't need their help. And we aren't offering them help under any circumstances anyway. (Remember? Focus on customers!) And if the website is that good, we'll find it on our own eventually....or maybe we'll find something better while we're multitasking -- looking for good websites, and not communicating with pests.

Again, it comes back to attitude. We're here to help surfers: anything that helps surfers is OK. Anything else is on limited sufferance. And with that attitude, it's usually very simple to deal both with priorities and with conflicts of interest.

Webmaster/surfer conflicts of interest must be resolved in favor of the surfer. The webmaster has his own website, and he can express his interest there.

Priority issues must be resolved in "what makes the directory grow more effectively?" And we know by experience that is -- wasting less time on non-helpful submittals. If someone isn't helping, there's no need to tell them to go away on the net. You can just shun them. And they aren't a problem any more, no matter how hard they try. And THAT'S all that matters. Trying to serve the interests of pestilential communicators ... is a waste of valuable editing time. Let them serve their own interests, ELSEWHERE, out of sight and out of mind of the editors. Their website will have to speak for itself. (But that's what it always comes down to: suggestions help us find and rough-categorize sites. But at review time, all that matters is the site itself. So what does it matter if communication that doesn't matter, doesn't even happen?
 

hutcheson

Curlie Meta
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
19,136
(1) Why does it matter why someone is submitting unlistable sites to us? If we go away from them, the problem is solved. No fuss, no muss, no help and no hassle either. Some people shouldn't be doing brain surgery, others shouldn't even be allowed access to a keyboard.

(2) If we are here to serve the surfer, why would we WANT to be trying to think up ways to serve someone else (website owners)? It doesn't matter whether it's a good idea or a bad idea: it isn't the ODP idea -- and its ramifications will have to be worked out somewhere else.

(3) Want to offer a service, any service, to website owners? Go ahead, we won't stop you, we won't compete with you. Charge whatever you like, or do it for free. If you accept help from other people, some ODP editors might choose to offer you help. If they do, and if you accept, and if (in their experience) their activity gives them information that helps them build the directory -- then, then ... you might see more editors offering to help you accomplish your mission on your website. But it would be your mission, independent of the ODP.

Many of us are not one-trick ponies. You'll see us at other pro-bono sites, and in other volunteer organizations. Because the ODP can't do everything, and there are other things worth doing.
 

giz

Member
Joined
May 26, 2002
Messages
3,112
>> I still think there is possibly room to do something about it without giving spammers anything, but maybe it is just too hard. <<

By telling the spammer that www.abcdefghij.com is still awaiting review, he deduces that we haven't yet noticed it is spam, and haven't yet noticed that it is related to his many other submissions that we have already deleted as spam.

But you'd guessed that already I guess?
 

spectregunner

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
8,768
What it really come down to is this:

People who are generally honest simply cannot comprehend the levels of trickery to which dishonest people stoop.

In the real world, good conment can clean out a person without ever casting doubt upon themselves. Grifters are grifters, whether real life or online.

So what happens is that a good person comes along, looks at our system, and tries to apply/suggest a system of improvement based on their good moral code. It sound good, and it is perfectly logical, and innately fair. Problem is that these well-meaning suggestions will not work because the other side does not share your moral and values, and has no reservations at all in using them against you and against us.
 

Isometric

Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
28
Okay that makes sense.


Thanks for the info. I am glad to hear that the idea of a better public reporting system is open to developement. I know it would be very difficult to get around the issues that all of you have mentioned.

If I get in to some editing I am sure I will find a bunch of other problems with it, but who knows I might come up with some possible contributions towards a new solution. Have to wait and see I guess.
 

Isometric

Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
28
Your right I have not seen the sorts of sites that get submitted to the ODP so I obviously don't have all the information I need to suggest the methods that would be used to inform people.
 

Isometric

Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
28
That's great, I am glad to hear that there can be some correspondence with the site owners.
 

charlesleo

Member
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
152
"jimnoble" said:
so I started emailing website owners instead. Guess what, the problem with that offender goes away.
LOL.

So on the topic of spam (and perhaps a matter of opinion) - do you suppose most of the problems originate from 'SEO' companies or web developers?
 

Nowhere711

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
2
hutcheson said:
And ... "suddenly" is the only way we CAN drop a listing. A slow fade just doesn't make any sense at all, and would be a royal pain to implement (so it hasn't been implemented and won't be either.)


"And ... "suddenly" is the only way we CAN drop a listing." It cracked me up! :D
 

pvgool

kEditall/kCatmv
Curlie Meta
Joined
Oct 8, 2002
Messages
10,093
charlesleo said:
So on the topic of spam (and perhaps a matter of opinion) - do you suppose most of the problems originate from 'SEO' companies or web developers?
My opinion. Some SEO companies and some web developers cause the problems. But most SEO and webdevelopers are nice people, they just have other priorities than DMOZ has.
 

jimnoble

DMOZ Meta
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
18,915
Location
Southern England
do you suppose most of the problems originate from 'SEO' companies or web developers?
Echoing pvgool's words, every group of people will contain a mixture of the open and the devious, the careless and the efficient, the idle and those who want to work with us.

A car valet naively suggesting his visiting card website to multiple locality categories squanders just as much effort as does the deliberate spammer.
 

hutcheson

Curlie Meta
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
19,136
>I have not seen the sorts of sites that get submitted to the ODP...

It's not so different than the sorts of sites that clog up Google search results -- or, more often, MSN (which of the large search engines is easiest to obtrude spammy websites into.) Just do a random search on some "popular" term. ("Popular" in this context means "a lot of people think they can make money selling advertisements for", such as fad diets, recreational drugs, real estate, travel, etc.) Look at a few dozen sites.

If a site LOOKS like it has information, think about where that information might have come from -- plagiarized from some other site? some tale told by an idiot, all sound and fury, most of it wrong? or is this the online web presence of a real person who knows the material well, from his own education and experience? If it claims to be an e-commerce site, is it actually owned by the person who is providing the goods and services with his own hands and brain, or is an advertising/marketing doorway to somewhere else? Is it coyly uninformative or intentionally deceptive about the answers to these critical questions?

You'll see the kinds of site, and the kinds of spam, and the kinds of challenges we face, there as well. (It's just that we do a MUCH better job of keeping or getting them out than MSN does!)

And bear this in mind: the less authoritative, the more deviously anonymous/pseudonymous a website, the more likely its owner is to be engaging in OTHER kinds of spamming, including the old fax/e-mail kinds as well as more SERP-perpish kinds of spamming like URL-dropping in forums, using link exchanges and FFA link farms and, yes, ODP suggestions.
 
This site has been archived and is no longer accepting new content.
Top