status of http://www.Buy-Your-Dream-Home.com

Let´s see.
You have been suggesting multiple related sites to dmoz.
On your sites you are trying to hide that these site are related.
You refuse to give us a complete list of all your sites.
That, combined with our very bad experiences with people in the same business as you, makes us very suspicious.
It is all about trust. And I don´t believe most editors do have this trust in you at this moment.

<We are very strict in how Real Estate businesses are listed. It doesn't matter how many sites you have - that is your business, and how surfers react to the fact that you have that many is up to them, not to us. The ODP will list at most one of them. Your business appears to already have a site listed. The most we will consider doing is to change that listing to another URL.>

First off, I thank you for soo succinctly explaining this and i think where the confusion lies is that I do not know any of my sites to be listed in the odp and i can guarantee you that i have not attempted to circumvent the rules listed for the ODP and if some are confused by this i do apologize because it is not on purpose. The absolute last time that i have ever attempted to submit my site to you folks was www.buy-your-dream-home.com and this submission was only because i did not know that another of my sites are already listed according to many of you. I did try to use the dmoz tools to figure out which one of my sites have been listed, and was unable to locate my site.

<To us, not knowing you, it looks like you are attempting to get multiple listings for the same business by submitting multiple sites. This is a big no-no for us, and turns editors very very cautious.>

Please tell me where and when i have attempted to submit many of my sites to the odp, because i am completely unaware and request IP logging information on that individual, so that my group can aggressively pursue this individual for fraud.

<The best way for you cause editors to have more ease-of-mind in listing your site would be if you were to provide us here with a complete list of domains and sites which your business owns.>

My business owns many many websites, and as you indicated earlier in your own statement, this would not be prudent business practice for us to share this proprietary knowledge to anyone, let alone, an editor that could be in a competing marketplace with us. I hope you understand that. You can easily view some of the domains that we own on the bottom of our webpage and if that is a problem with having undeveloped websites being referenced on a site that we are attempting to have listed in the odp, i would have no problems at all removing those offending links and simply include them on sites that are not being submitted to the odp.

<In terms of the "managers of dmoz", from an editing perspective they are all part of the volunteer editing force. If you believe that there has been editor abuse, you are welcome to file an abuse complaint overs at dmoz.org>

I have already done so, simply because of the belligerent comments that *hutchenson* has made about my character.

<This forum, however, is not an official part of the ODP - it is a forum run by a small group of volunteer editors.>

That reason alone is not enough to condone some of the comments that some of your editors have made to members of this forum.

<If you wish to escalate into legal action, then you will need to contact the legal staff at AOL, the owners of the directory. once you do this, the volunteer editors will not be allowed to have any further contact with you until the legal side of the issue has been resolved.>

I do not have issue with the odp, my issue is simply with some comments made regarding my character on this forum. I do not wish to seek legal recourse at this time, because, i am going to consider it an isolated incident.

On another hand, though, I have spoken to several members of the committees that i chair with the NAR and WPMLS and they have concerns with the members that might be *editing* the real estate sections of the open directory. It is a requirement of federal law that such person must be licensed in real estate/brokerage or an attorney focused on real estate law. Further, if the term REALTOR is being utilized to describe any of the directories or subdirectories of the ODP, than that usage MUST be approved by Mike Thiel of the National Association of REALTORS trademark division. Lastly, these editors of the "real estate directory" would be required to provide full disclosure of their license information (whether broker or agent) or the id# information from their local BAR (if attorney)....

as i am sure that i have been hot marked on your radar for what really probably is a simple misunderstanding, you can be sure that we will be equally monitoring the ODP directory situation as well when it comes to any reference to *real estate* or *REALTORS*....

I would simply like a very simple resolution to this whole situation and that would be to let me know which of my sites are listed in the odp, and i can simply *update* that url to reflect our current situation. If there are others that have been submitted by mistake, you have my full apology, because, i can guarantee you that I am not a person that seeks to circumvent your rules. Our team is constantly battling search engine spammers and the likes who actively set up shop and take business away from brokers and agents alike. We do not approve of affiliates using search engines to further their business at the expense of our good name and have actively removed over 124 sites from the yahoo directory, 84 sites from msn, and 32 from google (which tends to show that you folks are generally doing a better job).

There is one site in particular that we found in dmoz that we have asked to be deleted from the ODP:

ecommerceand.com

these folks are clearly spamming search engines and have received notice from our legal department for abuse in using our trademarks for the following site:

http://www.ecommerceand.com/open-realty/

they are also being investigated by: Remax, Century 21, Prudential, Coldwell Banker, and Realty One for violating their trademark and brand name usage (deceptive advertising)

Thanks again for your clarifying remarks

<Let´s see.
You have been suggesting multiple related sites to dmoz.>

I have NOT! please provide me with evidence of these multiple submissions - You cannot, because I DIDNT!

<On your sites you are trying to hide that these site are related.>

In what way, because they are at the very bottom of my page? As i stated before, those sites are currently being developed and NONE OF THEM have been submitted to DMOZ.

<You refuse to give us a complete list of all your sites.>

As stated several times in this very thread, i do not know the editor that would be reviewing my site, for all i know they may be from a rival broker or in my competing market and that would be simply a very poor business decision, if you would like, i would offer to speak to that person (editor) on the phone and after i have been able to rule out the above (that they are from a competing broker), i would be more than happy to share my list with them.

<That, combined with our very bad experiences with people in the same business as you, makes us very suspicious.
It is all about trust. And I don´t believe most editors do have this trust in you at this moment.>

Nothing personal here, but, i subscribe to the REALTORS code of ethics which is one of the most stringent professional business codes that exists. People trust me everyday with MILLIONS of dollars of their personal property to sell or to purchase that once in a lifetime dream home. Listen, i am not trying to argue semantics here, if you don't want me in your directory, fine, there is nothing i can do about it. But, i won't tell you how much it severely irritates myself and hundreds of thousands of REALTORS and BROKERS alike nationally that for every agent or broker that you turn down, there are 20 REFERRAL farms that somehow sneek in - that is simply unjust......but, as i am sure you folks are busy, i am as well....

Thanks for mentioning ecommerceand.com.

OK, our standards are not yours. We don't enforce trademarks, there are federal marshals that take care of that. We don't even enforce anti-search-engine spam techniques (if we did, we wouldn't list any of your mirrors, since we consider that spamming). And I freely grant you, it's mind-numbingly ugly design. But -- all of those things are about DESIGN and OPTIMIZATION of the website....and it's OK with us if they are really poorly done, or even vilely done.

But, but ... what is fatal is that it doesn't have information about whoever owns it -- and in a business category, information about the business is, um, necessary. For all the other reasons, I may personally rejoice to see it go, but that last reason is the only one that I may use ODP editing privileges to help it along its way.

Anyway, thanks again.

The extended explanation is because ... surfers have a very different view of the world than SERP perps. Some fast-talking dark-black-hat fly-by-night SEO professional may have (I believe, HAS) given you bad advice -- it happens to a LOT of people. That advice may well hurt you with the search engines (who are getting good at spotting duplicate content!), and it probably will make you look bad to surfers (the intelligent ones expect to know who's benefiting financially from the advice given out, and keeping your websites secret isn't the way to inspire SURFER trust) But ... that won't directly, automatically keep you from being listed in the ODP. It may INDIRECTLY affect you. When we see the multiple mirrors with different company names, we HAVE to get suspicious really fast. And if our suspicions can't get resolved (based on the websites) -- then that causes problems with the ODP listings.

It is a requirement of federal law that such person must be licensed in real estate/brokerage or an attorney focused on real estate law.

Click to expand...

I'd love to see the cite on that one.

Nothing personal here, but, i subscribe to the REALTORS code of ethics which is one of the most stringent professional business codes that exists.

Click to expand...

That may well be, but, it might be worthwhile for you to understand that we had to institue very strict, almost inflexible, rules for dealing with real estate agents because of widespread deceit and unethical submittals with regards to our directory. So your industry, in terms of this directory, has an exceptionally poor reputation insofar as eithics go.

Further, if the term REALTOR is being utilized to describe any of the directories or subdirectories of the ODP, than that usage MUST be approved by Mike Thiel of the National Association of REALTORS trademark division.

Click to expand...

That is also a highly interesting interpretation of trademark law.

<Thanks for mentioning ecommerceand.com.

OK, our standards are not yours. We don't enforce trademarks, there are federal marshals that take care of that. >

This is the EXACT reason why only a REALTOR, BROKER, or Attorney specializing in Real Estate Law should be editing ANY real estate directory - for that reason alone - you folks do not understand real estate law!

<We don't even enforce anti-search-engine spam techniques (if we did, we wouldn't list any of your mirrors, since we consider that spamming)>

I DO NOT WANT ANY OF THE OTHER SITES BEING DEVELOPED LISTED - why cant you understand that??!!!

<And I freely grant you, it's mind-numbingly ugly design. But -- all of those things are about DESIGN and OPTIMIZATION of the website....and it's OK with us if they are really poorly done, or even vilely done.>

Once again, that is simply YOUR opinion...our site design is simple, because most surfers (over 70%) are simple when it comes to the internet. You are probably right that we are missing out on alot of web designers who could be searching for a home or selling theirs, but that is not our target audience to date.

<But, but ... what is fatal is that it doesn't have information about whoever owns it -- and in a business category, information about the business is, um, necessary. For all the other reasons, I may personally rejoice to see it go, but that last reason is the only one that I may use ODP editing privileges to help it along its way.>

Good god, man, I OWN IT...ERIC!! My phone number is boldly displayed in the LOGO prominently displayed on every page in my site! OUR BROKER LICENSE IS LISTED AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERY PAGE!! What more do you want?? I will provide whatever you need.

<The extended explanation is because ... surfers have a very different view of the world than SERP perps. Some fast-talking dark-black-hat fly-by-night SEO professional may have (I believe, HAS) given you bad advice -- it happens to a LOT of people. >

Believe me, we fully understand the reasoning for designing the site like it is....we have gained over 100K extra page views per month simply by making some rather disturbing wording changes (that you are right, we normally wouldnt do) - but- our continuous battle with search engine spammers have forced us to take pre-emptive action as well as reactive measures to ensure those people looking for NORTHWOOD, find NORTHWOOD and nothing else!

<and it probably will make you look bad to surfers (the intelligent ones expect to know who's benefiting financially from the advice given out, and keeping your websites secret isn't the way to inspire SURFER trust)>

this is the mistake that most in the "know" make in the internet industry....see, i use Firefox as a web browser because i know it to be a safer form of browsing, but, the sites we have designed are built almost strictly to be viewed in IE - the reason is simple, even though we in the *know* know that IE is hazardous, around 88% of the free world does not. I only se google to search the web, yet both yahoo and msn are ranked higher in alexa...newspapers are written at a sixth-seventh grade level.....these are the majority and conversely, are the people that i target....

<That may well be, but, it might be worthwhile for you to understand that we had to institue very strict, almost inflexible, rules for dealing with real estate agents because of widespread deceit and unethical submittals with regards to our directory. So your industry, in terms of this directory, has an exceptionally poor reputation insofar as eithics go.>

well, that is disturbing because they could lose their livelihood over such a thing-i would imagine referral farms trying to abuse, but, i am shocked about agents

<That is also a highly interesting interpretation of trademark law.>

that is how it is....the term "realtor" can only be used by licensed realtors and bokers and MUST either be capitalized "REALTOR" or include the ® symbol after its use - this is NOT negotiable and has been upheld by the supreme court

I think you took my comments as referring to your site. They weren't (except for the side comments about the mirrors). They were the site which you mentioned (correctly but for the wrong reasons) as one that should not be listed.

As for your so-called "realtor code of ethics," we are not here to judge either the ethics of the code itself, or your ability to adhere to it. We just deal with what we see on the net. You may be a perfectly honest person and good citizen, for all I know: but your concern that your reputation would be harmed if someone accidentally found out who was publishing all those websites of yours ... is not a concern that I can harmonize with honest business. You may know real estate law -- but WE ARE NOT GOING TO DISCUSS REAL ESTATE LAW in here. You may know trademark law, but WE DON'T DISCUSS THAT EITHER.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you don't know the internet. And you're getting bad advice. As a surfer, I see the surfer's viewpoint. Surfers are your potential customers. Don't you think you ought to stop obsessing about real estate law and listen to the effect you are having on your potential customers?

<Interesting thoughts. If this were true we could ofcourse be ordered to delete all realtor categories from DMOZ. This would make live much easier for us. The biggest source of spam being blocked by their own organisations.>

actually i would suggest to the ODP and DMOZ that they require real estate directory submitters to provide their license # (broker or agent) and their NAR membership # if they are submitting to a REALTOR directory

hutcheson, as described before, we ONLY target our potential customers and unfortunately, they are not the very educated surfers that you refer too...when our customers become that market, we will redesign our site to suit those individuals (actually we have already begun working on a site that the geeds will find very suitable

<I think you took my comments as referring to your site. They weren't (except for the side comments about the mirrors). They were the site which you mentioned (correctly but for the wrong reasons) as one that should not be listed.>

I apologize for taking your comments to heart, but, earlier you referred to me as a *sleaze* and as a person with strong ethics and candor, that comment was very offensive to me. I do appreciate your nicer demeanor to me now and I'm hoping the previous was complete misunderstanding.

<Don't you think you ought to stop obsessing about real estate law and listen to the effect you are having on your potential customers?>

In real estate, real estate law MUST come first, than customers second, that is the nature of the beast...believe me i wish it would be easier, but, than everyone could practice real estate thus devaluing the industry as a whole.

Look, put the silly trademark issue aside. The ODP has no realtor categories! We have MANY "local real estate" categories, in which all kinds of businesses related to real estate (including salesmen) are listed. That's all. So this is not an issue.

And we don't know (nor do we have a right to care) about your daily business ethics. If we list Microsoft, then it's obvious that there is nothing on earth you could do that's evil enough to get your site banned. So this is not an issue.

The only issue is the website.

<Look, put the silly trademark issue aside. The ODP has no realtor categories! We have MANY "local real estate" categories, in which all kinds of businesses related to real estate (including salesmen) are listed. That's all. So this is not an issue.>

I am happy to hear that you folks do not have realtor categories, because the issue of trademark is not a *silly issue* at all...we estimate trademark infringements cost our business alone well in excess of a million dollars per year--but, as you said it is a dead issue.


<And we don't know (nor do we have a right to care) about your daily business ethics. If we list Microsoft, then it's obvious that there is nothing on earth you could do that's evil enough to get your site banned. So this is not an issue.>

well said.

<The only issue is the website.>

and what again is the issue?

Re #32

From time to time, an editor does create a "Realtor" category. It violates our (internal) guidelines in almost all cases, so they usually don't last long. At the moment, I see one (and I'm going to bring it up in the appropriate internal forum as soon as I finish in this forum). As for the use of the term "Realtor" in descriptions -- we don't encourage it, but there do seem to be a lot of them.

Most of them seem to be agencies with "Realtor" or "Realtors" in their name. If that's OK with the NAR, then it's OK with us.

The issue is: "You" (Eric) are the (or one of the) agent(s) on a number of real estate sites submitted. It's possible, I suppose that you don't know anything about it -- that they were suggested by your (former) agency -- but we have no way of knowing that.

If you've recently changed agencies, it might account for some of the micommunication here.

The purpose of this area is status checks. I personally checked into the matter myself because I wanted to feel that I felt the status given to you is fair, and I looked at the information gathered and I believe it is. I am sorry the subject is upsetting, this is in part why the forum guidelines includes:

# Keep in mind that editors cannot reveal certain information due to confidentiality issues mentioned in the ODP Editor Guidelines.

If your site has been rejected, please keep in mind that arguing about the editorial decision will not be tolerated. Please note that at the bottom of the "add URL" screen it says "Netscape and the ODP have unfettered editorial discretion to determine the structure and content of the directory" and "a site's placement in the directory is subject to change or deletion at any time"

This forum is not intended for site analysis or spam accusations. Please avoid discussing any aspect of the site except its submission status. "Rejected and not likely to be accepted anywhere" is a reasonable status.

Click to expand...

I think this discussion has gotten somewhat off track. The status has been given, so IMO it's time to end this now.