Submission status of http://www.hotelnetservice.com please

alfredmoesker

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Sep 27, 2004
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Dear Editor,

Most recently our site has been submitted perhaps a week ago, however there has been an issue with www.hotelnetservice.com in the past (years ago) so i am hoping for some tolerance on your behalf.
http://www.hotelnetservice.com was first a travel site about accommodation in Rome, and as such had been listed in the Rome index.
At some point it had been removed because it was branded an affiliate site.
This in itself was incorrect, but it did have links to other (affiliate) sites, so i guess the decision to remove the site was justifiable (??).
Now HotelNetService has changed and offers accommodation in many countries worldwide and does so with a new system, to which we hold the copyright. (you can try for yourself...its free!!)
I have submitted http://www.hotelnetservice.com to http://www.dmoz.org/Recreation/Travel/Lodging/Directories/ and would like to know its status here.
Having looked around the dmoz index i noticed many (!) lodging sites appearing in the listings for several destinations they offer, so presumed that was alright and have submitted to subcategories as well. Then later i read in guidelines that a site can be at most appear in two categories.
All we are interested in is have http://www.hotelnetservice.com appear in http://www.dmoz.org/Recreation/Travel/Lodging/Directories.
I'd would very much appreciate a reply and hope to finally achieve our listing in DMOZ.
Thank you for your time, Alfred Moesker, currently in Rome (Italy)
 

hutcheson

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The site isn't eligible for listing at all.

See, hotel directories are only useful when a surfer can pick several and have a good chance of finding what he wants. So each hotel directory (in order to be useful) must be one of a handful (say two to four) of "the most comprehensive" directories for some specific niche that the customer might be interested in. (And in addition, the niches must be defined so that the customer can find the right directory in one of only two or three places.

The current situation is far far otherwise. There are many times more "directories" than there are actual hotels. So we have very high standards -- see above -- and every time we add a directory, we raise the standards. Most of our current directory listings will be removed (as yours was) next time they are reviewed.

If your site is not in the top two or three directories in some niche (of your defining), then ... you may confidently expect that we will have no interest in it.

And I picked several cities at random. Zero hotel listings every time. That's the kind of directory that it is our duty and delight not to show surfers.
 

alfredmoesker

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Sep 27, 2004
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Dear Hutcheson,

Thank you for your reply, although i did not fully understand it.
I guess what you are trying to say is that you as DMOZ are interested in listing only the biggest directories?
So if lets say in 1 year we have more hotels in our directory then a directory you are currently listing, you would remove that one and enter us instead?
(just so i know what you mean and understand how this works).

And if that is the case, would we not be eligible to be listed in a subcategory, lets say "hotels in Cityname", if we were to offer a large amount of hotels to choose from in that particular city?

And one note on your reply only: where other accommodationreservation services are simpy "booking machines", HotelNetService works on a different principle, so it might be a consideration for the future for DMOZ editors also to look at showing a variety of reservation services, rather then just the biggest ones.

Thank you for your reply, once more
Alfred Moesker
 

hutcheson

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>So if lets say in 1 year we have more hotels in our directory then a directory you are currently listing, you would remove that one and enter us instead?

No. We wouldn't necessarily review any other specific directories. We would compare your site with what we knew the biggest directories had -- which is the same criterion we'd use if (or when) we re-reviewed the others.

And if that is the case, would we not be eligible to be listed in a subcategory, lets say "hotels in Cityname", if we were to offer a large amount of hotels to choose from in that particular city?

A particular geographic niche would be one way of outdoing the directories with a big lead in content generation. The trick is, one of those directories is the ODP. If your site doesn't have significantly more than we have (or reasonably could have), then ... again, surfers are better off not being distracted by it.

And as for "different system" -- that would fall under the category of "business model", which is what we Proverbially_Don't_Care_About. So if you keep records in quipu or Minoan linear or MS-Windows, or even if you use up-to-date file formats, or if you hire trained pigeons or MSCE's or even humans to do the filing. What matters is the information content of the website.

And, since accommodation directories are such a drag on the market (and on editor effort), better figure on the surfer being able to see that unique content, and being able to see that it is unique, in 59.7 seconds or less. Or else -- no chance of a listing.
 

hutcheson

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Look, I'm not saying it's impossible. But the chances of leaping the hurdles are a million to one, at least, and we're raising the barrier faster than ten average content creators could build a ramp.
 

alfredmoesker

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Sep 27, 2004
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Dear Hutcheson,

Clear as cristal, i dont only understand but actually also agree with it.
All i can say is, you have got a big job ahead of you still.
As i was going through "accomodation in city" categories, i found the most horrendous stuff, not just once or twice, but often.

some examples:

1. The same website getting listed 2 to 3 times in the same category.
Quite bluntly so as well, directly next (or on top off) eachother.

2. In various categories found this "trick": websites of hotels that had been submitted to category "hotel in cityname", would not actually show the own website of the hotel, but instead an internal page of a hoteldirectory.(so the hoteldirectory gets the link and not the hotel)

3. Various affiliate websites for big traveldirectories outthere were happily listed.


If i can think of any criticism at all towards DMOZ is that i dont think there is enough editing manpower to apply the same criteria to all categories.
Which is annoying because as we all know, having a link from DMOZ scores a lot of points in searchengines, and it's just not nice to see the competitor nextdoor "getting away with it".

Having said all of that, i 'd like to say thanks for the extensive reply and advice.
All i can say is we ll try to make www.hotelnetservice.com a better product and perhaps with time DMOZ will give us the "thumbs up"

Regards
Alfred Moesker
 

hutcheson

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If you'll supply those URLs, we'll be more than happy to check on them. As you say, it's a sleazy industry and a lot of stuff has gotten past us in the past.
 

alfredmoesker

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Sep 27, 2004
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Dear Hutcheson

I will make a project of it, thanks very much.
Just my very very very last remark in this useful exchange, which is why i came back one last time...

You replied that HotelNetService being different from other directories etc would be considered "different businessmodel", which justly you could not care less about.

That's not what i ment, the difference between any other hoteldirectory with reservation option that i am aware of, and HotelNetService is this, and its relevant to whoever uses it, not just to us:

If ones uses Hoteldirectory X, you look at pictures etc, then check the availabilty online, and if u like what you see, proceed to book the room.
So its "man against machine" as it were, no comunication ALLOWED!! because people are supposed to make their reservation by filling out a form the directory provides and NOT go and talk directly to the hotel, as they might get a better deal, etc....


HotelNetService works differently from everybody else: as a user, you log into the system, and then you get to actually talk to the hotels one-on-one.
So it's the property that offers the rate at the moment you talk to them (, and you (as a user) can ask them questions like "are dogs allowed", or "can we leave our luggage after we check-out", whatever...

So we are (at least as far as i am aware of) currently the only directory on the web that allows DIRECT CONTACT between user and hotel, and in fact that s how we are hoping to market it in the future: as the one place on the web where you can find thousands of hotels you can actually talk to yourself, instead of just having to fill out an anonymous booking form.

I bid you farewell, its been educational and useful and i will most definitely send you a little list of the worst purpetrators outthere..

Regards
Alfred Moesker
 

alfredmoesker

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Sep 27, 2004
Messages
20
Please review our request again

Hutchson

The website offers meanwhile 4200 hotels in many different countries (last time we spoke 2600), is used by tens of thousands of people, and is well established.

In Rome, which is our base, we offer about 230 hotels.
Of course with Dmoz, you can only get listed in one category, justly, so the most logical one seemed to be http://www.dmoz.org/Regional/Europe...ng/Directories/

I also suggested this, but was told that only hoteldirectories are accepted that have many hotels on offer.

Well, by looking at the other directories in that category, it appears that a least a few of them don't offer the number of properties we do, matter of fact, they dont even come close.

For example, you ll see a company called Abaka listed there, who offer a whole 11 ! hotels in Rome, compared to our 230.


We are not an affiliate, we are an independent company, we even own a trademark.

Why is it that we cannot seem to make it into DMOZ, or rather, please tell me what we HAVE to do to finally be admitted.

Thank you for your time.

Alfred Moesker
HotelNetService SRL
Via Vigliena 2,
Rome, Italy
 

hutcheson

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With all the hotel directories out there, most of them are already just regurgitating the hotel advertising. I cannot imagine what it would take to come up with something unique in this millenium. Size is not the key. "unique" is the key. 4400 copies of the hotel's own marquee advertising, already available on four million other sites ... would not be enough, not by a long long shot.

You can't ask me what would make a unique directory. If I knew, I'd be making one. If I were you, and I could not confidently put my finger on my own site and say "this is the unique aspect of my work, nobody else in the world has done this and few could do it even after watching me ... I've featured it prominently on my home page and linked to it from every page on the site..." -- if even you cannot say that, then you may confidently count on not being listed in the ODP. And we will consider it no loss to surfers.
 

alfredmoesker

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Interesting......because in your previous replies you pretty much let on that we had to grow as big as the other ones out there to be considered...when i pointed out we had a unique business model, and that the business model did not matter one bit to dmoz.

Now that we have grown another 1800 hotels in short time, the uniqueness of the business model has become a criteria.

We had a business model that was inspired on the site you offer www.abaka.com, and improved upon it.

Then we grew it to 4200 hotels..230 of which in Rome...they have 11.
They are listed..we are not...
 

alfredmoesker

Member
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Sep 27, 2004
Messages
20
Growing

Morning Hutchinson,

Happy Easter,

just keeping you updated...
since our last exchange we have grown again:

last count is :

4610 Active Properties

and many more destinations worldwide.

Soon some new product features...we ll just keep going untill you let us in ..

:)

Take Care
Alfred
 

oneeye

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Aug 2, 2002
Messages
3,512
Now you see I just clicked on just one town that had just one hotel. You never know I might find something unique, unlikely as it might seem. But what did I get? I need to give you my first name, last name, email address, and create a password. What, so you can sell my details and add a million more junk emails to my emal account. No thank you. And I think you would find that went for every editor. When there are goodness knows how many perfectly good hotel booking systems that don't ask for those pieces of information, and that give up their content without fuss, why on earth would I even dream of using your one? You might not want my details for nefarious purposes, but how do I know that? I don't but then I don't care since there are x number of alternatives where I know I'm safe from that.

we ll just keep going untill you let us in ..
Keep wasting your time then, your choice. Your site gives every impression of being affiliate spam, sites we see hundreds of times a day, and I can find nothing on the site that I have access to to disspell that notion. Whilst that remains the case you can add every hotel in the entire world and it would make zero difference.
 

alfredmoesker

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Sep 27, 2004
Messages
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check again

Dear One-Eye (what's in name?)

If you think our site gives the impression of being affiiate spam, you are not looking hard enough.
We developed this system ourselves, have the copyright to it.
In fact, if you bother to make a test reservation on it, you ll see there is no re-direct...the company is called HotelNetService and that is the company that processes the reservations.

As far as us being some scam to collect emailaddresses, that's downright insulting.

Lastly, go and check systems like, let's say, Venere.com ..

They let you make a search for accommodation, get into the page etc, THEN you have to signup and become a member.

The only difference with us is that we get people to signup at stage one of the system, because we find that more transparent, rather then letting them go all the way, entice them with their possible reservation, and then say: hey, now i showed you the goodies, but i wont give it to you unless you signup.

Companies want people to signup being, become a member, so they return to the product again in the future, perfectally normal.

I dont mind whatsoever not being listed on dmoz, but at least get your information right.
Other companies like expedia, orbitz, who-ever...all started the way we did, probably the only difference being they had a few million to invest.
 

hutcheson

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>Other companies like expedia, orbitz, who-ever...all started the way we did, probably the only difference being they had a few million to invest.

No, that's not the only difference, although the difference between spending a few million on content and ... not spending a few million on content is not to be sneezed at.

The other thing they had was an original idea (or at least, one of the first implementations of a new idea.) And that counts for something. The first one is unique, the second is an alternative to monopoly, the third is, um, of less interest but tolerated. The tenth is just spam -- unless it offers something palpably unique.

The point is not that your site is like expedia but later and poorer. The point needs to be that your site is unlike expedia and better in some way.
 

jmafonseca

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Mar 29, 2005
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6
Clarifications Regarding Editors Statements Here

hutcheson and oneeye, my name is Jose Fonseca and I am the CTO for Hotel Net Service. first of all thank you for taking your time to review this long case.

The other thing they had was an original idea (or at least, one of the first implementations of a new idea.) And that counts for something. The first one is unique, the second is an alternative to monopoly, the third is, um, of less interest but tolerated. The tenth is just spam -- unless it offers something palpably unique.

i hope car dealers do not read this thread. if the government reasoned like you there'd be 9 businesses in each area.

there are many unique features on hotel net service that no other agency has, regardless of how much they invested. i'll list just a few.

my main intention is exercizing our right to reply to the several unfundamented accusations you made. clearly our site was not impartially reviewed.

our main differential, which our customers always appreciate is that once the customer makes the request they are in DIRECT contact with property managers. this is guaranteed through our contract with the hotels, they will service your request and reply to you personally. no other online agency allows this.

large agencies like expedia do not list little family-run hotels in italy, spain, germany, france and elsewhere. we not only list those but we personally attend to both hotel and customer requests as to allow worldwide travellers to stay in the most remote and often unknown sites securely and comfortably. no other agency offers this kind of personal attention and direct contact with managers. they usually have some canned system where you enter numbers, click OK and wait.

What, so you can sell my details and add a million more junk emails to my emal account.

we take this as a rather serious accusation. you obviously did not read our privacy policy. we've had one in place since day 1 in operation, that was in 1999 when we started doing this through free sites even before we were able to establish hotel net service.

we have secure certificates from Thawte Consulting. i think your everyday spammer does not identify himself to the world through a Certification Authority does he/she?

But what did I get? I need to give you my first name, last name, email address, and create a password.

we do NOT sell, share, distribute or use personal information for any other reason. it is on our privacy policy.

When there are goodness knows how many perfectly good hotel booking systems that don't ask for those pieces of information, and that give up their content without fuss, why on earth would I even dream of using your one?

if you ever made an online hotel reservation without providing your name, email and password you are likely in violation of international law which requires identification AND authentication of all travellers. we are not making a case for you to use our system. what you seem to suggest here would be nirvana for terrorists. YES we require proper identification.

hotel net service is a legal entity, an established and registered travel agency based in Rome, Italy. registered as a societta di responsabilitta limitata(LLC in USA). we are NOT a spammy one geek operation, we are a multinational company with several employees, a fully equipped datacenter and real estate in Rome and Brazil. we have also proudly served 35.000 satisfied customers and growing.

we are bound by contract with every participant in our business(hotels and customers).

Keep wasting your time then, your choice. Your site gives every impression of being affiliate spam

i understand we may be wasting our time. it's clearly a waste of time when getting listed is not worth it anymore judging by the above accusations and personal opinions of a legitimate and successful business.

Whilst that remains the case you can add every hotel in the entire world and it would make zero difference.

it has become so obvious to us now that you are not judging by agency quality and size

I cannot imagine what it would take to come up with something unique in this millenium.

well a famous someone once said "all that was to be invented has already been invented". funny, after he finished blurting that we got the airplane, peniciline, the computer and the Web. it seems you have not learned anything from this foolish remark. but we have.

something unique for you : hotel net service offers personal attention, direct contact and online discussion with hotel managers, thousands of normally unlisted small family-run hotels, zero cost at booking time, content built and maintained by us, translations in dutch, german and portuguese paid for and administered by us.

our employees speak a minimum of 3 languages, our customer support and content translation staff speaks english, dutch, german, spanish, portuguese, french, greek and of course italian.

If you'll supply those URLs, we'll be more than happy to check on them. As you say, it's a sleazy industry and a lot of stuff has gotten past us in the past.

actually, our self-run and administered datacenter in Brazil is quite well equipped. our server farms in miami, new york and san antonio(texas) are also capable of a lot of work. but we don't have enough bandwidth and manpower to report every sleazy hotel URL you currently list.

the difference between spending a few million on content and ... not spending a few million on content is not to be sneezed at.

first of all we will not pay to be included in DMOZ. secondly the ammount spent on content is not a pre-requisite to be listed in DMOZ. thirdly our content is not cut+paste, as stated above. we allow hotels to enter their own information and we also actively participate in building the content.

if you've read this far i honestly thank you for your time, while i don't really expect to be listed on DMOZ i hope i've made it very clear to everyone reading this that we are a serious, hard working agency that is not involved in spam or mail list commerce as these gentlemen have explicitly accused us.

sincerely,
jose m. fonseca
cto / systems engineer
hotel net service srl
 

spectregunner

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Jan 23, 2003
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first of all we will not pay to be included in DMOZ

You had better not pay, because there is absolutely no charge or fees associated with being listed, and if you do pay someone, you are guilty of bribery, and if we find out ... the actions we take will be quite draconian.

You've had your final word. It is probably time to close this thread.
 

jmafonseca

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if you do pay someone, you are guilty of bribery

if i were you i'd run better background checks on your editors. i won't give you any free advice but there is currently at least one person i know that is making a good living selling placement in DMOZ. which doesn't help your image, because everyone knows it except you.

my clarifications are meant to dispell the unjust accusations you made about hotel net service and i think we accomplished that on this thread. hotel net service will probably last longer than DMOZ...

you may close this thread at any time at your discretion.
 

arubin

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Mar 8, 2004
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Note: I don't edit in your category, nor have I looked at your site. However, I do have some experience with travel spam in the categories I actively edit.

jmafonseca said:
i hope car dealers do not read this thread. if the government reasoned like you there'd be 9 businesses in each area.

Not really analogous -- each car dealer has some unique characteristic -- his location and inventory. (The fact that there's a company that provides web sites for dealers all pointing to the same inventory is another problem we have to deal with.) I'm sure you are aware that 10 different URLs with the same content is relatively easy to do, but should result in at most one listing in a directory.

...

our main differential, which our customers always appreciate is that once the customer makes the request they are in DIRECT contact with property managers. this is guaranteed through our contract with the hotels, they will service your request and reply to you personally. no other online agency allows this.

A point -- is it clear on the site?

...
we take this as a rather serious accusation. you obviously did not read our privacy policy. we've had one in place since day 1 in operation, that was in 1999 when we started doing this through free sites even before we were able to establish hotel net service.

we have secure certificates from Thawte Consulting. i think your everyday spammer does not identify himself to the world through a Certification Authority does he/she?

It doesn't cost that much for a certificate -- in fact, I think certificates are free to an individual. As for your privacy policy -- if you were unethical and resold customer information, our only remedy would be to file a lawsuit in your country, or possibly the EU. Not something many of us would want to risk.

if you ever made an online hotel reservation without providing your name, email and password you are likely in violation of international law which requires identification AND authentication of all travelers. we are not making a case for you to use our system. what you seem to suggest here would be nirvana for terrorists. YES we require proper identification.

Travel requires a name and ID -- at least, travel across national boundaries. Hotel stays do not (at least in the US). Travel reservations require only a name -- not an ID, and not an authenticator.

hotel net service is a legal entity, an established and registered travel agency based in Rome, Italy. registered as a societta di responsabilitta limitata(LLC in USA). we are NOT a spammy one geek operation, we are a multinational company with several employees, a fully equipped datacenter and real estate in Rome and Brazil. we have also proudly served 35.000 satisfied customers and growing.

We have a different definition of "spam" than you do. In our case, it includes multiple windows into the same reservation service -- even if they serve different customers. Hence, if you were to be a reseller for another reservation service -- which we couldn't tell without registering -- your site would not be listable. Resellers are perfectly legitimate businesses -- just not ones we are interested in listing.


...

First of all we will not pay to be included in DMOZ. secondly the ammount spent on content is not a pre-requisite to be listed in DMOZ. thirdly our content is not cut+paste, as stated above. we allow hotels to enter their own information and we also actively participate in building the content.

First -- you cannot pay to be included in DMOZ. If you try, you will be banned. But thank you for mentioning it. If you care to give the name of the editor(s) who are taking money for placement, the DMOZ admins will take care of it.

Second -- the amount spent on content is not a prerequisite -- we don't care where you find the content, as long as it is unique.

Third -- That makes it even more complicated. Some sites in which hotels enter their own information would not be listable, but the deeplinks to information about that hotel might be.
 

spectregunner

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Jan 23, 2003
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If you know of someone who is doing that, please PM any meta editor on this forum with that information . You will be doing everyone a great favor (including yourself) by doing so.
 
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